Are corpses objects?


Rules Questions


Corpses seem to simultaneously both be objects and not objects.

I've always thought that you could dead man's contingency teleport object your corpse (to a healer or your clone), but this is an assumption.

Also, generally when it comes to destroying a corpse the aren't any clear rules. Do AoOs effect them? Again this is usually handwaived, but should a fireball destroy or damage a dead white dragon? Would it keep its vulnerability to fire?

Obviously, I could be wrong and am glad to be proven wrong. But I only want answers from Paizo staff... sorry, couldn't keep a straight face but seriously what do folks think?

Links to FAQs or other threads welcome.


Raise Dead has a target of “dead creature touched”. This implies the body is still a creature of a type.

Quote:
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.

So, the body has hit points based on the character. I’d say it’s still a creature.

I guess the real question is, “Can the body be both a creature and an object?”


If I cannot treat a corpse as an object, how about a roast chicken? leather armor? Club made from a femur? If death is not the line that marks the beginning of "objecthood" then what is? I find any other definition to be more subjective and nitpicky than I desire in my games.


Okay, we'd agree that a body in an acid pit will dissolve eventually. But let's say timing matters. How do we represent this mechanically?


My expectation is that the body is treated as both an object and a creature, but I can't find any text to support the body being an object, while there are multiple rules that reference something dead being a creature.

Breath of Life is an even stronger example. It has a target of "creature touched", so if a dead character isn't still a creature, then the biggest part of that spell doesn't work.

There are some philosophical arguments though. Say, you kill a creature and then chop its head off. Do you have 2 objects, but only one creature? These kinds of issues are probably why we never got an official answer to this question. Pathfinder 2 probably has the same problem.


Let's apply some simple logic - yes, a dead body is a creature. We even know the state the creature is in - it's dead. That is literally a part of the rules. Yes, it's also an object, though that may not be so specifically covered, what would make it not an object, unless it was dismembered, and thus two or more?


There are rules that suggest they may be mutually exclusive:

magic chapter wrote:
Objects: A spell with this kind of area affects objects within an area you select (as Creatures, but affecting objects instead).

But the bigger issue may be, "If dead creatures count as objects, then why don't living creatures?" Is my hair an object? Is my arm an object? Again this is just philosophy. I don't think there will ever be an official answer.


EldonGuyre wrote:
Let's apply some simple logic - yes, a dead body is a creature. We even know the state the creature is in - it's dead. That is literally a part of the rules. Yes, it's also an object, though that may not be so specifically covered, what would make it not an object, unless it was dismembered, and thus two or more?

Eh. Even if you annihilate the body, there is still a (dead) creature, otherwise spells like true resurrection wouldn't work. This doesn't terribly illuminate whether a corpse is an object.

This all gets even more fun when you take into account out-of-body travel, possession, reincarnation (which creates a new body without destroying the old one), clones, multiple minds/spirits/souls in one body, etc.


blahpers wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
Let's apply some simple logic - yes, a dead body is a creature. We even know the state the creature is in - it's dead. That is literally a part of the rules. Yes, it's also an object, though that may not be so specifically covered, what would make it not an object, unless it was dismembered, and thus two or more?

Eh. Even if you annihilate the body, there is still a (dead) creature, otherwise spells like true resurrection wouldn't work. This doesn't terribly illuminate whether a corpse is an object.

This all gets even more fun when you take into account out-of-body travel, possession, reincarnation (which creates a new body without destroying the old one), clones, multiple minds/spirits/souls in one body, etc.

For what purpose, exactly? What would make it not an object?


EldonGuyre wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
Let's apply some simple logic - yes, a dead body is a creature. We even know the state the creature is in - it's dead. That is literally a part of the rules. Yes, it's also an object, though that may not be so specifically covered, what would make it not an object, unless it was dismembered, and thus two or more?

Eh. Even if you annihilate the body, there is still a (dead) creature, otherwise spells like true resurrection wouldn't work. This doesn't terribly illuminate whether a corpse is an object.

This all gets even more fun when you take into account out-of-body travel, possession, reincarnation (which creates a new body without destroying the old one), clones, multiple minds/spirits/souls in one body, etc.

For what purpose, exactly? What would make it not an object?

Barring that, what makes it an object? (This is tongue-in-cheek--I treat inanimate corpses as objects in my games--but I don't know of a rule that explicitly requires it.)


blahpers wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
Let's apply some simple logic - yes, a dead body is a creature. We even know the state the creature is in - it's dead. That is literally a part of the rules. Yes, it's also an object, though that may not be so specifically covered, what would make it not an object, unless it was dismembered, and thus two or more?

Eh. Even if you annihilate the body, there is still a (dead) creature, otherwise spells like true resurrection wouldn't work. This doesn't terribly illuminate whether a corpse is an object.

This all gets even more fun when you take into account out-of-body travel, possession, reincarnation (which creates a new body without destroying the old one), clones, multiple minds/spirits/souls in one body, etc.

For what purpose, exactly? What would make it not an object?
Barring that, what makes it an object? (This is tongue-in-cheek--I treat inanimate corpses as objects in my games--but I don't know of a rule that explicitly requires it.)

I doubt there is, but there's no rule for an incredible ton of things. Some things really just don't need rules.


EldonGuyre wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
Let's apply some simple logic - yes, a dead body is a creature. We even know the state the creature is in - it's dead. That is literally a part of the rules. Yes, it's also an object, though that may not be so specifically covered, what would make it not an object, unless it was dismembered, and thus two or more?

Eh. Even if you annihilate the body, there is still a (dead) creature, otherwise spells like true resurrection wouldn't work. This doesn't terribly illuminate whether a corpse is an object.

This all gets even more fun when you take into account out-of-body travel, possession, reincarnation (which creates a new body without destroying the old one), clones, multiple minds/spirits/souls in one body, etc.

For what purpose, exactly? What would make it not an object?
Barring that, what makes it an object? (This is tongue-in-cheek--I treat inanimate corpses as objects in my games--but I don't know of a rule that explicitly requires it.)
I doubt there is, but there's no rule for an incredible ton of things. Some things really just don't need rules.

Perhaps, but I'd like to know how damaging corpses works (or suggestions on how people think it should work) but so far I've not had much success. Mostly just semantic chasing of tails.


Artofregicide wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
blahpers wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
Let's apply some simple logic - yes, a dead body is a creature. We even know the state the creature is in - it's dead. That is literally a part of the rules. Yes, it's also an object, though that may not be so specifically covered, what would make it not an object, unless it was dismembered, and thus two or more?

Eh. Even if you annihilate the body, there is still a (dead) creature, otherwise spells like true resurrection wouldn't work. This doesn't terribly illuminate whether a corpse is an object.

This all gets even more fun when you take into account out-of-body travel, possession, reincarnation (which creates a new body without destroying the old one), clones, multiple minds/spirits/souls in one body, etc.

For what purpose, exactly? What would make it not an object?
Barring that, what makes it an object? (This is tongue-in-cheek--I treat inanimate corpses as objects in my games--but I don't know of a rule that explicitly requires it.)
I doubt there is, but there's no rule for an incredible ton of things. Some things really just don't need rules.
Perhaps, but I'd like to know how damaging corpses works (or suggestions on how people think it should work) but so far I've not had much success. Mostly just semantic chasing of tails.

Just like live, with no save.


Artofregicide wrote:


Also, generally when it comes to destroying a corpse the aren't any clear rules. Do AoOs effect them? Again this is usually handwaived, but should a fireball destroy or damage a dead white dragon? Would it keep its vulnerability to fire?

How exactly does an object trigger an AoO? Only creatures taking actions trigger AoO. Right?

When you destroy an object, what does it become? It is still that object, now with the destroyed condition. Some spells can restore destroyed objects.

Damage further damages objects, including corpses. At no point does the rules say when an object ceases to be an object except in the case of some spells like disintegrate.

And since the corpse is still a creature, yes it keeps its vulnerability to fire. When we describe something as 'burnt to a cinder' or 'rendered to paste' its more for flavor than a result of the rules. Which is fine, the rules are a framework that we use to tell stories, not an attempt to codify all of reality. The story teller (aka GM) should put in some effort to liven up the story instead of just sticking to the most basic results as dictated by the rules.


Meirril wrote:
Artofregicide wrote:


Also, generally when it comes to destroying a corpse the aren't any clear rules. Do AoOs effect them? Again this is usually handwaived, but should a fireball destroy or damage a dead white dragon? Would it keep its vulnerability to fire?

How exactly does an object trigger an AoO? Only creatures taking actions trigger AoO. Right?

When you destroy an object, what does it become? It is still that object, now with the destroyed condition. Some spells can restore destroyed objects.

Damage further damages objects, including corpses. At no point does the rules say when an object ceases to be an object except in the case of some spells like disintegrate.

And since the corpse is still a creature, yes it keeps its vulnerability to fire. When we describe something as 'burnt to a cinder' or 'rendered to paste' its more for flavor than a result of the rules. Which is fine, the rules are a framework that we use to tell stories, not an attempt to codify all of reality. The story teller (aka GM) should put in some effort to liven up the story instead of just sticking to the most basic results as dictated by the rules.

I completely agree, but I also want to be fair to the players and not just GM fiat.

The compromise I came to was this:

Dead character has ironskin revelation going (no reason to believe it shuts off because he's dead) but otherwise he's at -33 with a 15 CON. Dragon uses breath weapon that includes him on the radius. He automatically fails the save because he's dead (can of worms I don't want to open) and takes 29 fire damage. But his skin is metal, with hardness 10 and 5 hp (due to the thinness of his skin). Half 29 is 14, minus 10 hardness is 4 damage which badly melts his iron skin but otherwise prevents his body being turned to ash.

Thoughts? This is clearly GM fiat heavy.


Artofregicide wrote:

The compromise I came to was this:

Dead character has ironskin revelation going (no reason to believe it shuts off because he's dead) but otherwise he's at -33 with a 15 CON. Dragon uses breath weapon that includes him on the radius. He automatically fails the save because he's dead (can of worms I don't want to open) and takes 29 fire damage. But his skin is metal, with hardness 10 and 5 hp (due to the thinness of his skin). Half 29 is 14, minus 10 hardness is 4 damage which badly melts his iron skin but otherwise prevents his body being turned to ash.

Thoughts? This is clearly GM fiat heavy.

Sounds fair to me. The Ironskin functions like Stoneskin, so it's active for 10min/level regardless of whether he's dead or not. Though I'm wondering why you're reducing the dragon's 29 dmg by half to 14 dmg when he doesn't get a reflex save.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Artofregicide wrote:

The compromise I came to was this:

Dead character has ironskin revelation going (no reason to believe it shuts off because he's dead) but otherwise he's at -33 with a 15 CON. Dragon uses breath weapon that includes him on the radius. He automatically fails the save because he's dead (can of worms I don't want to open) and takes 29 fire damage. But his skin is metal, with hardness 10 and 5 hp (due to the thinness of his skin). Half 29 is 14, minus 10 hardness is 4 damage which badly melts his iron skin but otherwise prevents his body being turned to ash.

Thoughts? This is clearly GM fiat heavy.

Sounds fair to me. The Ironskin functions like Stoneskin, so it's active for 10min/level regardless of whether he's dead or not. Though I'm wondering why you're reducing the dragon's 29 dmg by half to 14 dmg when he doesn't get a reflex save.

Objects take half energy damage unless specified (like wood and fire). If he was just flesh, I wouldn't have halved it.


Well piece parts of a creature have to be objects because of Improvised Weapons, spell components, and the optional rule re: Trophies. A drop of a creature's blood is used for a level 1 spell; bird quills or the upthread-mentioned femur can be used as improvised weapons; using an optional rule, valued parts of unique animals can be sold on the open market as treasure.

For these reasons and others I've always ruled that creatures, alive or dead, are both creatures and objects in my games. This explains how, in a recent session, a barbarian with Improvised Weapon and Throw Anything started hurling corpses with extreme accuracy 20' down a hallway to keep some kobolds at bay while the rest of the party took other corpses and made a low wall with them for Cover.

Good times...


Artofregicide wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Artofregicide wrote:

The compromise I came to was this:

Dead character has ironskin revelation going (no reason to believe it shuts off because he's dead) but otherwise he's at -33 with a 15 CON. Dragon uses breath weapon that includes him on the radius. He automatically fails the save because he's dead (can of worms I don't want to open) and takes 29 fire damage. But his skin is metal, with hardness 10 and 5 hp (due to the thinness of his skin). Half 29 is 14, minus 10 hardness is 4 damage which badly melts his iron skin but otherwise prevents his body being turned to ash.

Thoughts? This is clearly GM fiat heavy.

Sounds fair to me. The Ironskin functions like Stoneskin, so it's active for 10min/level regardless of whether he's dead or not. Though I'm wondering why you're reducing the dragon's 29 dmg by half to 14 dmg when he doesn't get a reflex save.
Objects take half energy damage unless specified (like wood and fire). If he was just flesh, I wouldn't have halved it.

Ah, that makes sense. Personally, I wouldn't consider corpses to be objects in that respect, so they'd take full damage even with the Ironskin active (-10 dmg for the DR though). The ability doesn't actually turn your skin to metal, it says "your skin hardens and has the appearance of iron, and functions like Stoneskin using your Oracle level for Caster Level". It's still skin in my opinion, it's just hardened skin.


Although, I would try my best to not let a situation like that happen. I really only have 3 rules at my table. There will never be: 1) Rape, Sexual Violence, or Sexual Harrassment, 2) No extended Torture (you get 3 intimidate checks to beat the info out of him, after that, the interrogation is over), and 3) in the event of PvP, no mutilation of PC corpses. After that, anything else would be a case-by-case basis, but my players aren't a-holes so it's rare that something inappropriate would come up.

While I wouldn't consider your situation to be mutilation of a PC corpse, I would do my best to not cause damage to a fallen corpse to set a good example for the rules I intend for them to follow.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

Although, I would try my best to not let a situation like that happen. I really only have 3 rules at my table. There will never be: 1) Rape, Sexual Violence, or Sexual Harrassment, 2) No extended Torture (you get 3 intimidate checks to beat the info out of him, after that, the interrogation is over), and 3) in the event of PvP, no mutilation of PC corpses. After that, anything else would be a case-by-case basis, but my players aren't a-holes so it's rare that something inappropriate would come up.

While I wouldn't consider your situation to be mutilation of a PC corpse, I would do my best to not cause damage to a fallen corpse to set a good example for the rules I intend for them to follow.

Those are good rules. In this case, the dragon was specifically trying to make it harder to resurrect the character in question.

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