Mathmuse |
Draco18s and I are arguing over in Mathmuse's Houserules and I would like to hear other people's viewpoints on the issue. I had made an assumption about the Rules As Written when I made up a houserule, and Draco18s rightly pointed out that the rules are inadequately described and could be interpretted differently.
The issue is crafting in batches during the Craft activity.
Consumables and Ammunition
You can Craft items with the consumable trait in batches,
making up to four of the same item at once with a single
check. This requires you to include the raw materials
for all the items in the batch at the start, and you must
complete the batch all at once. You also Craft non-magical
ammunition in batches, using the quantity listed in Table
6–8: Ranged Weapons (typically 10).
I had assumed that, for example, Crafting 1 batch of 4 Acid Flasks took 4 times as long as Crafting 1 Acid Flask. One lesser Acid Flask costs 3 gp. Suppose the character's Income Earned (Table 4-2, page 236) is 5 sp per day. To make 1 lesser Acid Flask, the character spends 4 days in preparation, spends 1.5 gp in raw materials, and then works 3 days at 0.5 gp per day to finish the Acid Flask. To make a batch of 4 lesser Acid Flasks, with combined price 12 gp, the character spends 4 days in preparation, spends 6 gp in raw materials, and then works 12 days at 0.5 gp per day to finish the remaining 6 gp of work on all 4 Acid Flasks.
Draco18s presented an alternative viewpoint that to create a batch of 4 lesser Acid Flasks, the character spends 4 days in preparation, spends 6 gp in raw materials, and then works 3 days just like with 1 lesser Acid Flask to finish the batch, since they are all brewed together in one large beaker (or cauldron, since he is considering the witch's Cauldron feat).
The only other information I can find about crafting in batches is the Alchemist class's Efficient Alchemy ability. Be warned that usually, when an alchemist ability uses the word "batch," the word is in the phrase "batch of infused reagents" which does not mean batch in the same way Craft uses batch. But Efficient Alchemy appears to use the word batch the same way Craft does.
EFFICIENT ALCHEMY FEAT 4
ALCHEMIST
Thanks to the time you’ve spent studying and experimenting,
you know how to scale your formulas into larger batches
that don’t require any additional attention. When spending
downtime to Craft alchemical items, you can produce twice
as many alchemical items in a single batch without spending
additional preparatory time. For instance, if you are creating
elixirs of life, you can craft up to eight elixirs in a single batch
using downtime, rather than four. This does not reduce the
amount of alchemical reagents required or other ingredients
needed to craft each item, nor does it increase your rate of
progress for days past the base downtime spent. This also
does not change the number of items you can create in a batch
using advanced alchemy.
In my total-price approach, Efficient Alchemy is a weak feat. A 3rd-level Crafting expert alchemist whose Income Earned is 5 sp per day could make two separate batches of 4 lesser Acid Flasks over 32 days, 16 days per batch. With Efficient Alchemy the same alchemist could make one batch of 8 lesser Acid Flasks over 28 days. Saving 4 days out of 32 days is only 12.5% of the time. The alchemist could also save 4 days by spending 2 gp to finish the crafting early, so this feat is worth only a few gold pieces.
In contrast, the fast-batch approach means that the alchemist crafting 4 items in a batch makes 2 gp of progress a day, instead of 0.5 gp. That is the progress rate of a 6th-level Crafting expert, 3 levels above our alchemist. The alchemist crafting 8 items in a batch makes 4 gp of progess a day. That is the progress rate of a 9th-level Crafting expert. With fast batch processing, the alchemist finishes 8 Acid Flasks in two 4-item batches in 14 days and an Efficient Alchemy alchemist finishes 8 Acid Flasks in one batch in 7 days. The time is so short that the alchemical items are essentially half price. People are accustomed to that from Pathfinder 1st Edition.
Aratorin |
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My view is that the intention is that consumables and ammunition are inherently smaller items so you can make them more quickly than a large item like a sword or armor. So when you make a batch it takes the same amount of time as making one item.
Making a batch of four pancakes does not take four times as long as making one pancake.
Shandyan |
Another consequence of 'fast batch' approach is that it makes crafting batches of items cheaper than buying them, which doesn't apply to non-batch items.
This kicks in regardless of the size of the batch, e.g. buying four 3g potions costs 12g. With the 'total price' approach, the maximum cost via crafting is also 12g, but with the 'fast batch' approach, the maximum cost via crafting is only 7.5g.
I'm not sure what's intended by the rules, but it's perhaps a point in favour of the 'total price' approach. It means that you have the same potential savings for crafting batches of items as for crafting single copies of items.
Aratorin |
Another consequence of 'fast batch' approach is that it makes crafting batches of items cheaper than buying them, which doesn't apply to non-batch items.
This kicks in regardless of the size of the batch, e.g. buying four 3g potions costs 12g. With the 'total price' approach, the maximum cost via crafting is also 12g, but with the 'fast batch' approach, the maximum cost via crafting is only 7.5g.
I'm not sure what's intended by the rules, but it's perhaps a point in favour of the 'total price' approach. It means that you have the same potential savings for crafting batches of items as for crafting single copies of items.
I don't understand this logic. If the batch totals 12gp, you still have to spend 6gp up front, and 6gp to finish.
RicoTheBold |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My take: Batches save you time on the front end, since the mandatory prep time is cut down. They don't save you time if you're working additional days to reduce the cost.
That said, it should be fairly obvious that 4 days of prep time for a batch is better than 16 days of prep for crafting each one separately, so crafting as a batch gives 12 extra days of downtime to...well, in Mathmuse's example, that's just enough time to work off the remaining costs of the entire batch. In this specific example, it would take the same amount of time to craft a batch for half price as 4 singles for full price.
Batches almost certainly are not intended to act as a multiplier on the extra days of progress, which would be a substantial change to earned income tables, effectively giving a 4-5 level boost.
Shandyan |
Shandyan wrote:I don't understand this logic. If the batch totals 12gp, you still have to spend 6gp up front, and 6gp to finish.Another consequence of 'fast batch' approach is that it makes crafting batches of items cheaper than buying them, which doesn't apply to non-batch items.
This kicks in regardless of the size of the batch, e.g. buying four 3g potions costs 12g. With the 'total price' approach, the maximum cost via crafting is also 12g, but with the 'fast batch' approach, the maximum cost via crafting is only 7.5g.
I'm not sure what's intended by the rules, but it's perhaps a point in favour of the 'total price' approach. It means that you have the same potential savings for crafting batches of items as for crafting single copies of items.
I thought Mathmuse was saying that 'fast batches' reduces the time to finish the batch, which means that it would cost less if you decide to pay up rather than spend more days (because if it takes fewer days, it must have a lower target amount of gold). On a re-read, I think I misread that - with fast batches, the extra days generate more money towards the same total.
It's a bit odd really - if you want to craft something without spending money, then batching doesn't make a massive difference to the time required to craft. If you're level 1 and trying to make a 3g potion, it takes 32 days to make four potions sequentially vs. 30 days making them as a batch (assuming standard successes on all craft rolls). If you're willing to chuck cash at the problem, then batching is great - it's 20 days to do them sequentially vs. 4 days for the batch.
Draco18s |
My view is that the intention is that consumables and ammunition are inherently smaller items so you can make them more quickly than a large item like a sword or armor. So when you make a batch it takes the same amount of time as making one item.
Making a batch of four pancakes does not take four times as long as making one pancake.
This is basically my stance as well, or at least what makes logical sense. The problem is that it vastly multiplies the effectiveness of downtime income earning potential.
Remember that "suppose the character's Income Earned (Table 4-2, page 236) is 5 sp per day..." is true, when crafting a batch of Acid Flasks that cost 3gp each, the total batch cost is 12gp. You spend 6 up front and then make a crafting check that progresses the crafting by 5sp...per Acid Flask or 20sp per day: four times the standard amount. And as soon as a witch with Cauldron comes along she's earning six (!) times as much.
The alternative is that it takes stupidly long to craft a batch because the 5sp is calculated towards the total cost of 12gp rather than the per-item cost of 3gp and it takes an entire friggin month to craft potions that are supposed to be dirt cheap (and the witch Cauldron feat makes her take 50% longer as an entire class feat option).
It's a bit odd really - if you want to craft something without spending money, then batching doesn't make a massive difference to the time required to craft. If you're level 1 and trying to make a 3g potion, it takes 32 days to make four potions sequentially vs. 30 days making them as a batch (assuming standard successes on all craft rolls). If you're willing to chuck cash at the problem, then batching is great - it's 20 days to do them sequentially vs. 4 days for the batch.
I'm not sure how you got these numbers. You spend 6gp up front and then spend days crafting at 5sp per day:
You are either applying that progress towards the total of 12gp (12 days + 4 startup) or you're applying that progress towards a "total" of 7.5gp (1.5 half cost saved by crafting + 1.5*4 half cost upfront, takes 3 days + 4 startup).
Doing it sequentially one potion at a time is 3*4 days + 4*4 startup (28 total).
Doing it in parallel is either 3*1+4*1 (7 total: progress is applied per potion) or 3*4+4*1 (16 days: progress is applied to the batch as a whole).
This is why I ignore the 4 day startup time when trying to do comparisons, as the important part is "how do you track progress?" as one way either takes four times as long and the other makes four times as much money per day.
The alternative is that potions listed in the gear chapter are actually priced in batches of four already and that the cost for a single Acid Flask is not 3 gold, but rather 7 silver 5 copper and that the witch Cauldron feat allows her to make SIX instead of FOUR when crafting (at the same base cost of 1.5 gold up front and 5sp per day towards a total of 3gp).
Shandyan |
Shandyan wrote:It's a bit odd really - if you want to craft something without spending money, then batching doesn't make a massive difference to the time required to craft. If you're level 1 and trying to make a 3g potion, it takes 32 days to make four potions sequentially vs. 30 days making them as a batch (assuming standard successes on all craft rolls). If you're willing to chuck cash at the problem, then batching is great - it's 20 days to do them sequentially vs. 4 days for the batch.I'm not sure how you got these numbers. You spend 6gp up front and then spend days crafting at 5sp per day:
You are either applying that progress towards the total of 12gp (12...
Yeah, I misread the batch crafting rules entirely, and so my numbers were totally off. Sorry for any confusion caused!