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Page 39, lost omens character guide
Unbreakable-er goblin (feat 13)
-unbreakable goblin heritage
As hard as most unbreakable goblins are to break, you are that much harder to break. You gain 20 Hit Points from your ancestry instead of 10. When you fall, you take no falling damage. If you have the Bouncy Goblin feat, after falling or jumping from a height of at least 20 feet, you can bounce back into the air, up to half the distance you fell (and half as far forward if you jumped). These bounces continue until you bounce less than 20 feet.
It is written straight forward but, really?
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At the cost of a 1st level skill feat slot and a few investments in Acrobatics, any character can have the same bonus from Cat Fall at level 15.
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At the cost of a 1st level skill feat slot and a few investments in Acrobatics, any character can have the same bonus from Cat Fall at level 15.
I wouldnt say it's just a few investments. Most, if not all classes get 1 legendary skill that they have to put their 3rd, 7th, and 15th skill bump in. In addition to the skill feet.
That doesnt change the issue. Is being completely immune to fall damage, without magic, okay? By raw the character doesnt seem to even need to be conscious. It doesnt seem like such a trivial thing. Gravity was kind of a great equalizer.
Just falling through the atmosphere, conscious or not, land on a building with enough force to destroy it. Dont die from the fall, but that brick falling 10 feet might get ya of you were ko'd. Likly take out anyone inside too.
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I'm just saying their is precedence for a feat that gives immunity to fall damage. Now that I think of it the 2nd level monk feat Dancing Leaf can also negate an arbitrarily high amount of falling damage as long as their is a horizontal surface to fall next to.
That gives us Skill, Ancestry, and Class feats that can negate falling damage, with differing levels of investment and limitation required.
Also, Goblins are the joke ancestry with weird and wacky abilities. That's one of the major reasons many people didn't like them being added in as a core ancestry, they have a reputation as being evil and zany. Which one of those two qualities is a bigger problem is up to personal interpretation.
Edit: Also, none of those three feats call out a need to be conscious. Which does bring up some questions with Cat Fall's "always land on your feet" aspect. Just do a triple flip and stick the landing with your eyes closed and snoring.
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Just falling through the atmosphere, conscious or not, land on a building with enough force to destroy it. Dont die from the fall, but that brick falling 10 feet might get ya of you were ko'd. Likly take out anyone inside too.
As per the current set of rules I think that the goblin could be falling like a comet and still deal no falling damage, neither to himself, nor to anyone or anything else.
When you fall, you take no falling damage.
combined with
If you land on a creature, that creature must attempt a DC 15 Reflex save. Landing exactly on a creature after a long fall is almost impossible.
Critical Success The creature takes no damage.
Success The creature takes bludgeoning damage equal to one-quarter the falling damage you took.
Failure The creature takes bludgeoning damage equal to half the falling damage you took.
Critical Failure The creature takes the same amount of bludgeoning damage you took from the fall.
So even if you stay on target when jumping from the moon, you will not take damage and consequently your target will also not take damage (wording is "you took" not "you would have taken").
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It's the equivalent of being able to cast feather fall at will - which is only a 1st level spell. There are gnome and elf heritages that give you a cantrip (in most cases, a far more useful spell than feather fall) at level 1.
There is an elf feat at level 9 that gives you Augury, a 2nd level spell.
There are 3 elf feats at level 1 that gives you a cantrip, followed by a level 5 feat that gives you four more cantrips.
For gnomes, there is a feat at level 1 that gives you a cantrip, and at level 9 you can get 2 2nd level spells.
Even dwarves can cast a 3rd level spell at level 9 (heroism).
Other ancestries have similar feats (I don't think I need to catalogue all of them to demonstrate my point).
I think that a feat that replicates being able to cast one of the most situational 1st level spells at will is absolutely fine for a 13th level character to have.
Falling damage is actually a pretty rare occurrence, and encounters generally aren't balanced around the possibility of taking fall damage - they usually assume that everyone will stay on the ground and fight each other conventionally, so their balance is more upset by taking fall damage than ignoring it.
Additionally, fall damage is usually in one of two categories - survivable without any damage reduction, or only survivable if you have complete immunity. I have never seen a case where there was doubt over whether a character would survive a fall - it has always either been "the fall is too short to possibly kill the character" or "oh good heavens they fell off an airship flying at 2000 feet, there is no way they can possibly survive" so abilities that simply reduce fall damage instead of giving immunity are rarely useful enough to warrant a feat.
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Page 39, lost omens character guide
Unbreakable-er goblin (feat 13)
-unbreakable goblin heritage
As hard as most unbreakable goblins are to break, you are that much harder to break. You gain 20 Hit Points from your ancestry instead of 10. When you fall, you take no falling damage. If you have the Bouncy Goblin feat, after falling or jumping from a height of at least 20 feet, you can bounce back into the air, up to half the distance you fell (and half as far forward if you jumped). These bounces continue until you bounce less than 20 feet.It is written straight forward but, really?
Leaf Leshies get this as a Heritage ability for free at level 1...
It's the equivalent of being able to cast feather fall at will - which is only a 1st level spell. There are gnome and elf heritages that give you a cantrip (in most cases, a far more useful spell than feather fall) at level 1.
There is an elf feat at level 9 that gives you Augury, a 2nd level spell.
There are 3 elf feats at level 1 that gives you a cantrip, followed by a level 5 feat that gives you four more cantrips.For gnomes, there is a feat at level 1 that gives you a cantrip, and at level 9 you can get 2 2nd level spells.
Even dwarves can cast a 3rd level spell at level 9 (heroism).
Other ancestries have similar feats (I don't think I need to catalogue all of them to demonstrate my point).
I think that a feat that replicates being able to cast one of the most situational 1st level spells at will is absolutely fine for a 13th level character to have.
Falling damage is actually a pretty rare occurrence, and encounters generally aren't balanced around the possibility of taking fall damage - they usually assume that everyone will stay on the ground and fight each other conventionally, so their balance is more upset by taking fall damage than ignoring it.
Additionally, fall damage is usually in one of two categories - survivable without any damage reduction, or only survivable if you have complete immunity. I have never seen a case where there was doubt over whether a character would survive a fall - it has always either been "the fall is too short to possibly kill the character" or "oh good heavens they fell off an airship flying at 2000 feet, there is no way they can possibly survive" so abilities that simply reduce fall damage instead of giving immunity are rarely useful enough to warrant a feat.
Those 10 points of fall damage are pretty substantial.
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In a story about extremely competent heroes who do cool things, if it comes up that one of our heroes happens to fall a tremendous distance, the more interesting outcome of that fall is anything except "they are killed on impact."
Most likely you're going to be in situations where you fall 10-50 feet, so the goblin being immune to that damage (for a higher level feet) isn't totally out of bounds compared to how other heritages get substantial resistances to specific things. A 14th level forge dwarf can just shrug off 7 points of fire damage no problem, so a 14th level unbreakable goblin being able to ignore 10 points of fall damage seems in bounds (particularly because fire is more common than falling.)
So if you have an unbreakable-er goblin in the party and you want some hazard to not be survivable, you make it so it involves something other than "falling a long way" (things like "molten lava" or "whirling blades" would suffice). But if it's just a hazard intended to create tension, by signposting to the players "avoid this" something like "and then you will bounce down the entire mountain and it will take forever to get back here" will work for your unbreakable bouncy goblins.
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Also goblins are small and light. IRL spiders are "immune" to falling damage, so while it's definitely fantastical it's not completely insane.
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I mean it's kind of insane, but in such a way that doesn't add a ton of traditional power but instead opens up new things this goblin can do. Plus it's level 13. More high level ancestry feats should be like this.
Plus I mean, monks can take a feat to ignore fall damage as long as they're next to a wall as early as level 2 and Leshies have a heritage that lets them ignore fall damage entirely starting at 1.
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I always saw fall damage as a "you done goofed".
Like in season one of critical role when keyleth lept off a huge ocean side cliff and decided to wild shape into a goldfish, and proceeded to die instantly. She done goofed. Could have turned into a water elemental, with resistance to bludgeoning and a swim speed for once in the water, but nope, a 1hp goldfish. There are situations where players make their beds and need to lie in it, or in her case bob lifelessly on the surface.
Raw it is all pretty straight foword. Still just weird imo. Weird enough I wanted to make sure I wasnt horribly misreading or misinterpreting it.
Thanks for all the feedback, I wasnt aware that immunity to fall damage was so prevelant.
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I like it, its the kind of feat that screams Golarion Goblin to me.
I think the whole unbreakable goblin chain of ancestry feats is just to show "you are weirdly elastic, even for goblins which are already weirdly elastic for sapient bipeds."
Flexible bones, muscle and tough skin coupled normal goblin mutations and being light small and hardly creatures seems right imo.
Seems no worse than when a charhide can just sit in a small campfire and ignore its flames.
I always saw fall damage as a "you done goofed".
Like in season one of critical role when keyleth lept off a huge ocean side cliff and decided to wild shape into a goldfish, and proceeded to die instantly. She done goofed. Could have turned into a water elemental, with resistance to bludgeoning and a swim speed for once in the water, but nope, a 1hp goldfish. There are situations where players make their beds and need to lie in it, or in her case bob lifelessly on the surface.
Raw it is all pretty straight foword. Still just weird imo. Weird enough I wanted to make sure I wasnt horribly misreading or misinterpreting it.
Thanks for all the feedback, I wasnt aware that immunity to fall damage was so prevelant.
Funnily enough, RAW Mercer actually goofed in that situation - he admitted on twitter that he completely forgot that in 5e, there is a maximum fall damage of 20d6, though he also implied that it seems fair for a gm to ignore that limit for a 1000 foot drop (if I where inclined to gm a 5e game, unless it was adventurers league, I would probably ignore the damage limit anyway).
Honestly though, I think Marisha needed the reminder that she can't get away with everything.
As with the topic at hand, I probably wouldn't recommend taking unbreakable-er goblin unless you are either A# In a campaign where you are on an airship or up in the mountains a lot or B# A character who flies in most combats or C# wanting it for comedic value.
Remember that a 13th level feat has to also compete with all of the lower level feats, and goblins make up for their lack of interesting high level feats with a fair few pretty good lower level feats (the scuttle feats come to mind).
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Also goblins are small and light.
Unlike those large and heavy gnomes... :P
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Unbreakable goblin monk fighting style: grapple an opponent and fall down, let the enemy splat and bounce back half the distance, quickly climb the other half and grab another opponent...
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Unbreakable goblin monk fighting style: grapple an opponent and fall down, let the enemy splat and bounce back half the distance, quickly climb the other half and grab another opponent...
Name yourself Kirby.
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Also goblins are small and light.Unlike those large and heavy gnomes... :P
It is that combined with a heritage specifically calling you out as a durable goblin and two ancestry feats calling you out as an especially durable goblin mutant thing.
Unbreakable bouncy goblins probably don't have true bones, but rather just cartilage.
It is that combined with a heritage specifically calling you out as a durable goblin and two ancestry feats calling you out as an especially durable goblin mutant thing.Also goblins are small and light.Unlike those large and heavy gnomes... :P
The heritage/feats are what did it not size and weight: if you Enlarge a goblin to Huge and it has those feats and heritage, the same effects happen hence size/weight didn't add into the equation in the least.
The heritage/feats are what did it not size and weight: if you Enlarge a goblin to Huge and it has those feats and heritage, the same effects happen hence size/weight didn't add into the equation in the least.It is that combined with a heritage specifically calling you out as a durable goblin and two ancestry feats calling you out as an especially durable goblin mutant thing.Also goblins are small and light.Unlike those large and heavy gnomes... :P
Here's a can of worms, but does magical enlargement actually increase weight in 2e? I can't find anything that specifically says one way or another.
Also goblins are small and light.Unlike those large and heavy gnomes... :P
The gnome shtick is that gnomes heal unnaturally fast after they fall off the airship, due to the influx of positive energy from being a First World native.
It makes sense that gnomes should still be vulnerable to damage and death, since that sort of fascination is what got them booted from the First World to begin with.
Here's a can of worms, but does magical enlargement actually increase weight in 2e? I can't find anything that specifically says one way or another.
I'd assume so or you'd see Huge enlarged [15' tall 30 pound] normally small creature flying away is a stiff breeze when they grow: it's be like watching a tent fly away because of low weight compared to surface area. That and things would only have to push/shove your old weight... It's pretty bad if bigger things don't weigh more. Good if you want to fly a gnome as a kite for a min a guess.
shtick
Oh I understand the shtick: the post I commented wasn't on a goblins mutant genetics making them a rubber crash-test dummy like body but a comment that their size and weight alone is what did it, and that's not something unique to goblins.
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When our party's goblin uses this feat, he represents it in game by taking off his underwear and parachuting with it.
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When our party's goblin uses this feat, he represents it in game by taking off his underwear and parachuting with it.
At least your party's goblin wears underwear!
When our party's goblin uses this feat, he represents it in game by taking off his underwear and parachuting with it.At least your party's goblin wears underwear!
In the party where i am the GM, one of the PCS (Goblin Rogue) wears a kind of Kilt, and when he does demoralize actions he lifts the Kilt.....
By the way that PC is going for the Bouncy thing, so yes he would drop and bounce up up and away!
When our party's goblin uses this feat, he represents it in game by taking off his underwear and parachuting with it.At least your party's goblin wears underwear!In the party where i am the GM, one of the PCS (Goblin Rogue) wears a kind of Kilt, and when he does demoralize actions he lifts the Kilt.....
By the way that PC is going for the Bouncy thing, so yes he would drop and bounce up up and away!
Does he yell "I'm old Greg!" while doing it? and also ask about drinking baileys out of a shoe?