buckler question.


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Ok, next question. My swash/slayer 5/2 just levelled and plan on taking TWF and Imp Shield bash. Character already has a +1 buckler. Now, how does it work for using as a weapon. I know it has to be enchanted separately, but would it count as masterwork already? Also, how does one get a buckler made of cold iron or any other different material for weapons?


you can't shield bash with a buckler without proper feat\ability.
also a lot of swashbuckler things (like the Precise Strike deed) won't work with 2 weapon fighting. (' To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.')


What zzz ni said. You’ll lose your level to damage with TWF, and if you’re a dex build you’ll also lose dex to damage via Slashing Grace. And if you’re not a dex build, TWF is essentially useless.

You’re far better off taking feats to maximize your to hit or make up for your poor will save. Swashbuckler inevitably do decent damage, you should be prioritizing crit effects and to-hit, since your to-hit is essentially your AC vs melee attacks (+1-20).

It’s always decent to grab extra panache, since you never know when that added 5 damage will come in handy from precise strike

Grand Lodge

forgot to mention its a rondelero swash...my bad


After a quick read it doesnt appear to change how precise strike or slashing grace would work... so you’re still better off without TWF/imp shield bash... If I were you I’d build into greater disarm, and start combat vs armed combatants with a charge into disarm, to capitalize on a +10 to disarm and break their initial full attack.

It would still be really hard to TWF even with this archetype. I think this archetype lends itself to the buckler being a specialized secondary weapon, but not one to use in conjunction on the same full attack action...

If you went 6th level to get Rondelero Flexibility. You *might* be able to argue that precise strike still works when you use TWF in combination with this ability, but it wouldn’t change how slashing grace works


Ordinarily you can't bash with a buckler without investing in some feats, but your Rodelero Archetype lets you treat it as a one-handed piercing weapon, AND make bashing attacks doing damage as a light shield. It's not two weapon fighting though. it allows you to make the bash in place of a normal or iterative attack, not grant an extra attack.

Look over the rules for bashing attacks with magical shields, as those will apply to your buckler bash.

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Basically your +1 buckler will give you +2 Shield Bonus to your AC, unless you make an attack with it during the round, at which point unless you have the feat that allows you to keep the AC bonus it will be negated.

You won't get the + 1 enhancement bonus to attack with the buckler unless you have a separate enchantment placed on it as a weapon (at all the normal costs for enchanting a weapon.

There's another thread here on the forums that questions whether a buckler can be enchanted as a weapon, not just as a shield, but I'd talk to your GM. In my personal opinion, it's not much different than any other shield, even if you can't normally make attacks with a buckler.


You would need to buy a buckler of the material needed. It would have to be masterwork for both weapon and armour costs I believe. However there is a spell for that to turn things to masterwork.

Upsetting shield style may interest you. You can gain a fair bit of defense and even some offense later on that way


first and foremost, there was a discussion about the build you seem to be aiming at, check here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lzwp?Bashing-Buckler-Bash-Rodelero

"how does it work for using as a weapon"

normally it doesnt, as said above, you need a feat to shield bash with a buckler called buckler bash.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/feats/buckler -bash-combat/

there is also a nifty shield enchantment for shields called bashing, since bucklers count as a light shield I think it works but im not 100 percent sure on that. it makes the shield count as +1 and do 2 steps more damage then a shield of its kind (for a buckler, thatd be damage 2 steps higher then a light shield).

Yes, as cavall said, a buckler can be other materials. any wood or metal materials (but not cloth type materials). you can make it or buy it.


Shinoskay wrote:
since bucklers count as a light shield

What? Where do you get that from?

Shinoskay wrote:
Yes, as cavall said, a buckler can be other materials. any wood or metal materials (but not cloth type materials).

Wrong. "Buckler: This small metal shield (…)" CRB pg. 150, identical wording UE pg. 10

Adderyn wrote:
It's not two weapon fighting though. it allows you to make the bash in place of a normal or iterative attack, not grant an extra attack.

I was going to protest against this, but in a weird way, this might actually be RAW. The TWF rules say "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand", but you aren't wielding a buckler in any hand. If the buckler counts as wielded in the hand, that would disallow Precise Strike.


Derklord wrote:
Shinoskay wrote:
since bucklers count as a light shield
What? Where do you get that from?

In the case of grimdog's (the OP's) character, it's a rondelero swashbuckler and they get the buckler bash class feature which lets them shield bash with a buckler, using light shield stats.

@grimdog73: while you probably can jump thru the hoops to get your buckler enchanted as a weapon, you may prefer to aim for the shield master feat. It's got a lot of prereqs though.


avr wrote:
it's a rondelero swashbuckler and they get the buckler bash class feature which lets them shield bash with a buckler, using light shield stats.

I repeat: Where do you get "bucklers count as a light shield" from? The only mention of light shiled in the Rondolero description that I see is that has the same damage stats as a light shield. So where does the "count as" come from?


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Its damage stats are as per a light shield. The bashing shield quality improves the damage of a light shield in a defined way. While bashing can only be applied to a light or heavy shield, another shield which is being given the damage stats of a light shield could hardly be considered a stretch. 'Count as' sounds like a shorthand for that.


avr wrote:
another shield which is being given the damage stats of a light shield could hardly be considered a stretch. 'Count as' sounds like a shorthand for that.

I'm sorry, I thought this was the "Rules Questions" forum.

Using the same damage stats doesn't make the buckler a light shield. Using the same damage stats doesn't treat the buckler as a light shield for anything. The ability even says what you treat the buckler as ("He can treat a buckler as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon."), and oh look at that, light shield is not listed there!

For the record, the rules of enchanting a shield as a weapon apply to all shields: "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC." CRB pg. 462, identical wording UE pg. 114


Upsetting Shield Style, would be able to make it count as a light shield for most other effects.

Unhindering Shield might be interpreted to allow precise strike for at least the main weapon with this combo?


Dreklord wrote:

Shinoskay wrote:
Yes, as cavall said, a buckler can be other materials. any wood or metal materials (but not cloth type materials).
Wrong. "Buckler: This small metal shield (…)" CRB pg. 150, identical wording UE

As you saying you cant have a darkwood buckler or a mithral one if you purchase the material costs?


Coolwasabi wrote:

Upsetting Shield Style, would be able to make it count as a light shield for most other effects.

Unhindering Shield might be interpreted to allow precise strike for at least the main weapon with this combo?

I agree that the style feat should quell any doubt but also it's just really useful here.

Hit with your buckler, give a penalty, then hit twice with your falcata with fortuitous when they miss. Seems a great trade off and applies some awesome penalties. The whole style tree is really decent.


Cavall wrote:
As you saying you cant have a darkwood buckler or a mithral one if you purchase the material costs?

It's a metal shield. Therefore, you can make it out of other metals, but not other materials.

"Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood." UE pg. 49


Derklord wrote:
Cavall wrote:
As you saying you cant have a darkwood buckler or a mithral one if you purchase the material costs?

It's a metal shield. Therefore, you can make it out of other metals, but not other materials.

"Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood." UE pg. 49

Weirdly the Darkwood Buckler isn't a buckler, it's a light wooden shield made out of darkwood. If it was an actual buckler it would cost 205gp, not 203gp.


Derklord wrote:
Cavall wrote:
As you saying you cant have a darkwood buckler or a mithral one if you purchase the material costs?

It's a metal shield. Therefore, you can make it out of other metals, but not other materials.

"Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood." UE pg. 49

The one exception would be Dragonhide. Good to keep in mind for any class averse to metals.


Wonderstell wrote:
The one exception would be Dragonhide. Good to keep in mind for any class averse to metals.

Nope, dragonhide lists what you can make out of it. "One dragon produces enough hide to make a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a light or heavy masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger." UE pg. 49, emphasis mine.


Derklord wrote:
Nope, dragonhide lists what you can make out of it.

Nope, dragonhide lists what a typical dragon can give you. Nothing you've quoted is a restriction on what you can make out of dragonhide.


I probably mixed up buckler description with one of its heavier alternatives. my bad.

still, metals are available.

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