Invisibility, Dimension Door, and Stealth


Rules Questions


If you are invisible, and have been using stealth while holding still, how does this interact with moving via dimension door?

Are you allowed to use stealth?
Does the previous stealth check stand or do you need to make a new check?
Does this change if you cast it as psychic magic?


Casting a spell is not a conspicuous action.

That being said Dimension Door only has a verbal component so while the spell is being cast, anyone would be allowed a Perception check to locate the source of the sound, but as soon as the spell is finished, the sound is gone and the caster is somewhere else, rolling new Stealth check.

You should make a new stealth check every time your situation changes usually via moving around but possible through other means..


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From the FAQ wrote:
Although this isn’t directly stated in the Core Rulebook, many elements of the game system work assuming that all spells have their own manifestations, regardless of whether or not they also produce an obvious visual effect, like fireball. You can see some examples to give you ideas of how to describe a spell’s manifestation in various pieces of art from Pathfinder products, but ultimately, the choice is up to your group, or perhaps even to the aesthetics of an individual spellcaster, to decide the exact details. Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation. Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.


If you're invisible, no spells you cast will break your invisibility unless they're deemed as an attack, which is largely up to player intent and GM discretion, and D Door is obviously not an attack so no, your Invisibility would not drop. So if you're doing Dimension Doors while Invisible and stealthing, you would not need to roll for a new Stealth check, unless of course, you D Door within range of creatures/NPC's that might notice/hear you, or like Lady Asharah said, after having already rolled a stealth check, if you start making noise (like casting D Door right next to someone you already successfully Stealthed next to), or if you started walking on snow, or doing anything else that would otherwise prompt a new Perception check based off your new actions after doing a Stealth check, then yes, a new Stealth check would be warranted. In the Perception check rules, the DC to notice you goes up by 1/10 per ft you are away from them, so DC increases by 1 for every 10ft, and this is in addition to your overall Stealth roll plus the +20/+40 moving/not-moving bonus from being Invisible, so keep that in mind too.


Stealth wrote:
Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.

Ignoring invisibility for a moment: After casting dimension door you cannot take any more actions till your next turn. Given that I'd rule that you are not in stealth immediately after DDing.

With invisibility then the rule becomes: What is needed to detect an invisible creature that is not trying to be stealthy? This just becomes a flat DC 20 perception check. Stealth 0 + 20 for being invisible.

Regarding the FAQ on spell manifestations: regardless of whether you believe manifestations reveal an invisible casters location or not, I don't think this FAQ has any bearing. Manifestations are part of casting a spell. When you complete the spell the manifestations end (there may or may not be other visual effects, such as fireball). You are not teleported until after you complete the spell, so there would be no manifestations at your new location.


The manifestation of fireball is both from the caster and where it lands. It's not unreasonable to assume that teleport spells would also have an emanation at both points of the teleport. But without spellcraft, you'd just know that some magic thing happened in a place. You'd need a successful spellcraft check to know which magic thing happened there.


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Melkiador wrote:
The manifestation of fireball is both from the caster and where it lands. It's not unreasonable to assume that teleport spells would also have an emanation at both points of the teleport. But without spellcraft, you'd just know that some magic thing happened in a place. You'd need a successful spellcraft check to know which magic thing happened there.

The key point here is invisibility; while the FAQ did establish that there are emanations, it doesn't address how they interact with other effects like invisibility. To this day there is no resolution on whether an invisibility spell makes your spell emanations invisible as well. Expect table variations on that one.


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Melkiador wrote:
The manifestation of fireball is both from the caster and where it lands. It's not unreasonable to assume that teleport spells would also have an emanation at both points of the teleport. But without spellcraft, you'd just know that some magic thing happened in a place. You'd need a successful spellcraft check to know which magic thing happened there.

The fireball itself is not part of the "spell manifestations". "Spell manifestations" are the indicator someone is actually casting a spell as opposed to just wiggling their fingers and saying gibberish. The visible ball of exploding flame is part of the spell effect that shows up after the casting of the spell is completed. (The quoted FAQ even makes the distinction between manifestations and over spell visuals). Teleport may or may not have extra visible components (that's going to be entirely GM discretion). Personally I like to think of teleport having a soft "whumpf" noise associated with it from the displaced air - but none of that is rules based or factored into stealth checks without GM intervention.


I personally think that it both makes sense that spell manifestations are both visible and invisible during invisibility. If that answer is confusing to you, welcome to the pathfinder Rules Question forum. We are here to answer *only* the official written word and gospel of the almighty Paizo... where they are silent we must do our best to infer what makes sense for our group and adventure path. Is invisibility vitally important for both PCs and NPCs: make spell manifestations invisible... is it more of a flavor/situational thing? Makes them visible. Paizo doesn’t really spell out how magic works vs other magic very well... they expect experienced/competent GMs to make their own calls

EDIT: Btw, great question. Any question that has no obvious answer or answer at all is a great one, since it helps all of us GMs weigh how we will rule such things in our games.


Regardless of invisibility, casting dimension door which opens up a portal next to you which you step through would create an obvious manifestation that people could observe that could give away your position. People may recognize the spell effects and could identify exactly what you've cast, but either way they should be able to see "something magic is happening here, and over there".


The door part of dimension door is a bit of an unwritten rule. The text doesn’t mention a door. But it’s in the name and some old official artwork.


Melkiador wrote:
The door part of dimension door is a bit of an unwritten rule. The text doesn’t mention a door. But it’s in the name and some old official artwork.

Moreover it just takes us back to the problem of whether the invisibility spell extends to the manifestation (be it a "door" or otherwise). There's no rules text to go on so such debates just go in circles.

The Exchange

Dasrak wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The manifestation of fireball is both from the caster and where it lands. It's not unreasonable to assume that teleport spells would also have an emanation at both points of the teleport. But without spellcraft, you'd just know that some magic thing happened in a place. You'd need a successful spellcraft check to know which magic thing happened there.
The key point here is invisibility; while the FAQ did establish that there are emanations, it doesn't address how they interact with other effects like invisibility. To this day there is no resolution on whether an invisibility spell makes your spell emanations invisible as well. Expect table variations on that one.

correct. at my table i tell my players that they do get seen when invisible, because it works that way for all and lots of bad guys out there. most cast and move though. best thing is to choose and stick to it.

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