Shouldn't Noctilcula allow NG worshippers ?


Advice


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I just saw in Gods&Magic that Nocticula allow only N, CN and CG worshippers to gain power.
That means the Redeemer Queen don't allow redeemer champion to serve her.
I find it a bit strange that she doesn't promote more redemption using champions.

Do you think a houserule allowing redeemer to worship her would be strange ? Lore-wise

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's possible that she's of the "My redemption? Don't talk about my redemption, I wasn't redeemed, I had a change of mind" type who is still a bit confused about what happened to her and at any rate not interested in being suddenly the redemption poster girl. So if anybody comes to her like "Lady, I shall champion the beautiful cause of redemption you embody so gracefully" she's like "FFS NOPE, DON'T IRRITATE ME" and then she's like *phone* "Sarenrae, hun, you send one more of those morons at me and I'll be having a conversation with you! Yes, today at 9 PM, at Desna's, why yes, I'll bring the wine".


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The former succubus queen visiting desna, meeting with sarenrae bringing a bottle of wine, now let shelyn pop in and lets see what happens...uhm... sorry, oftracked a little

Well, I think Nocticula is more about the part that she freed herself and figuring out who you are yourself (without beeing evil)
So while she is redeemed in a way and is called the redeemer queen, redemption itself is still mostly a sarenrae thing

If you were on my table I would allow a Nocticula redeemer nontheless, but that is a matter of individual taste


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Gorbacz wrote:
So if anybody comes to her like "Lady, I shall champion the beautiful cause of redemption you embody so gracefully" she's like "FFS NOPE, DON'T IRRITATE ME" and then she's like *phone* "Sarenrae, hun, you send one more of those morons at me and I'll be having a conversation with you! Yes, today at 9 PM, at Desna's, why yes, I'll bring the wine".

Thank you Gorbacz, you just made my day! LOVE it!


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I see it as Nocticula is the goddess of those who redeem themselves, rather than those who redeem others.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
MaxAstro wrote:
I see it as Nocticula is the goddess of those who redeem themselves, rather than those who redeem others.

Character hook, a character that did redeem themselves and now travels trying to help others find it in themselves to follow a better path.

NG Redeemer for Nocticula.

One topic, I figured it was a small mistake, but I do like the ideas tossed out here.

Paizo Employee Developer

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James Jacobs wrote the entry for Nocticula, but I think I can explain some of the reasoning, or at least the reasoning for another god that had similar alignment questions (Apsu). The logic for them not sponsering redeemer champions involves specific clauses in each god's commands that don't mesh well with the concept.

Nocticula (Edict): "Punish those who take advantage of offered trust and shelter."

Apsu (Paladin Code): "Mercy is offered, but only once. Should I be betrayed in my moment of kindness, I will not stop until I have put my enemy down."

Now, you could argue that offering mercy once and then hunting someone to the ends of the earth technically doesn't violate the redeemer's code; certainly, the Cult of the Dawnflower made that argument. But then, they made Sarenrae so angry she doesn't even accept neutral followers anymore, so your milage may vary.


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LizardMage wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
I see it as Nocticula is the goddess of those who redeem themselves, rather than those who redeem others.

Character hook, a character that did redeem themselves and now travels trying to help others find it in themselves to follow a better path.

NG Redeemer for Nocticula.

One topic, I figured it was a small mistake, but I do like the ideas tossed out here.

It is less that people don't worship her, but more that she doesn't give power to those sorts of people. Her ideals match the other three alignments more and match neutral good less.


Eleanor Ferron wrote:

James Jacobs wrote the entry for Nocticula, but I think I can explain some of the reasoning, or at least the reasoning for another god that had similar alignment questions (Apsu). The logic for them not sponsering redeemer champions involves specific clauses in each god's commands that don't mesh well with the concept.

Nocticula (Edict): "Punish those who take advantage of offered trust and shelter."

Apsu (Paladin Code): "Mercy is offered, but only once. Should I be betrayed in my moment of kindness, I will not stop until I have put my enemy down."

Now, you could argue that offering mercy once and then hunting someone to the ends of the earth technically doesn't violate the redeemer's code; certainly, the Cult of the Dawnflower made that argument. But then, they made Sarenrae so angry she doesn't even accept neutral followers anymore, so your milage may vary.

If I may, nothing in the Redeemer tenets nor even in Sarenraes contradicts the above edicts (which you mention). The above edicts do not prohibit nor discourage mercy only that mercy being betrayed means you have all rights and even possibly obligation to rectify the mercy given. The Redeemer only demands that you give a chance. If that chance is abused you are reasonably withing your rights to act with violence.

This is the tenets in question below

You must first try to redeem those who commit evil acts, rather than killing them or meting out punishment. If they then continue on a wicked path, you might need to take more extreme measures.
You must show compassion for others, regardless of their authority or station.

And one of Sarenrae anathema is "failing to strike down evil". If you give mercy to a murderer who then continues down that path you are responsible for that and if you fail at redempition as well killing said murderer (you may decide that you failed after the first and proceed to violent acts) than you are causing anathematic act.

Granted you are insider and I am not so you obviously sit on info I lack. AS with all theological discussion one can have very different view especially given that Sarenrae allows ALL GOOD alignments. So I definitely understand where you came from (despite lacking the information and knowledge you possess).

Personally I see Nocti as deity of the those that take their own path in life which includes redemption but isn't restricted to it. Redemption in specific is Sarenrae

Liberty's Edge

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I don't see Nocticula as offering the kind of redemption that's being discussed here, certainly not the kind that Sarenrae or Shelyn might offer. Especially if you look at her in terms of what she herself experienced, I think it's more about finding a way out of something that looked inescapable. Getting another chance with your life. Not necessarily a better one from a moral perspective, just one that offers a clean slate of sorts.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Do any other deities have alignments that are multiple steps away from them? Nocticula is currently Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Stephan Taylor wrote:
Do any other deities have alignments that are multiple steps away from them? Nocticula is currently Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good.

Arazni, at Neutral Evil, has Chaotic Good worshipers.


Tsukiyo is LG and allows CG.


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Feros wrote:
Stephan Taylor wrote:
Do any other deities have alignments that are multiple steps away from them? Nocticula is currently Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good.
Arazni, at Neutral Evil, has Chaotic Good worshipers.

As well as LN & CN, while not allowing those alignments combined with evil...the only component she personally has. Which is to say, she's a jumbled mess, likely because she's self-loathing. She explicitly resents those who worship her for what she is.

I can imagine how crazy it'd be to play a CG Cleric w/ an unholy symbol.
"How can you not hate your own goddess?"
"Oh, I do hate her, but so does she. We agree on so much!"
"Wait, what?"

As for Nocticula, I do think it's a matter of individuality and personal freedom overshadowing wanting to devote oneself to other people when they can darn well do that for themselves!
(She uses "darn" because she's redeemed, ya' know.)

ETA: It struck me later that maybe she hates both good & evil, so focuses on neutral (LN/N/CN) followers. Being NE, she cannot not allow those, and perhaps she'd once been CG before the big betrayal so feels a connection or sympathy there too. Maybe. (Arguably CG would also be the most likely to have aided her in tragic life...again maybe.)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Stephan Taylor wrote:
Do any other deities have alignments that are multiple steps away from them? Nocticula is currently Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good.

Arazni. NE, allows CG followers.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Castilliano wrote:

I can imagine how crazy it'd be to play a CG Cleric w/ an unholy symbol.

"How can you not hate your own goddess?"
"Oh, I do hate her, but so does she. We agree on so much!"
"Wait, what?"

HAHA. XD

I need to share this with one of my Tyrant's Grasp players... He's a worshiper of Vildeis who has been attracted to the worship of Arazni for almost exactly this reason.


Seisho wrote:
The former succubus queen visiting desna, meeting with sarenrae bringing a bottle of wine, now let shelyn pop in and lets see what happens...uhm... sorry, oftracked a little

ew.... wasn't Nocticula dating Sarenrae's daughter at one point? That seems like it is way too messy.

Maybe back when she was a demon lord, but it is far too messy right now since she is trying to do PR management. Calistria was already giving her side eyes for transitioning from "powerful seducer" to "CN goddess". She doesn't need this in her portfolio right now.


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lemeres wrote:
Seisho wrote:
The former succubus queen visiting desna, meeting with sarenrae bringing a bottle of wine, now let shelyn pop in and lets see what happens...uhm... sorry, oftracked a little
ew.... wasn't Nocticula dating Sarenrae's daughter at one point? That seems like it is way too messy.

Noctilcula also slept with her brother, so I guess this is not nearly as bad.

Silver Crusade

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She had the appetizer and now she's ready for the main course ow ow I'm not sorry ow ow stop with the sticks ow ow

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd think there is also that Redeemers aim to turn evil doers into good and Nocticula is CN not CG :p


CorvusMask wrote:
I'd think there is also that Redeemers aim to turn evil doers into good and Nocticula is CN not CG :p

Well, the first step to becoming good is becoming non-evil

while it does not swing the complete way it's a perfectly fine start :P

Who knows, maybe in pathfinder 3 Nocticula will be CG ;)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Seisho wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
I'd think there is also that Redeemers aim to turn evil doers into good and Nocticula is CN not CG :p

Well, the first step to becoming good is becoming non-evil

while it does not swing the complete way it's a perfectly fine start :P

Who knows, maybe in pathfinder 3 Nocticula will be CG ;)

I kind of hope not? I don't think it fits her personality to go fully Good, and I don't think "you have to reach capital-G Good to be fully redeemed" is a great way of thinking. Nocticula's current position of sort of "You don't have to be a hero, just stop being a villain" is nice.

My headcanon is definitely that Arushalae gets to Good eventually (it helps that in my home version of Golarion, she is married to a CG Paladin who was one of the PCs in WotW), but I think Nocticula is fine at CN.


Seisho wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Seisho wrote:
The former succubus queen visiting desna, meeting with sarenrae bringing a bottle of wine, now let shelyn pop in and lets see what happens...uhm... sorry, oftracked a little
ew.... wasn't Nocticula dating Sarenrae's daughter at one point? That seems like it is way too messy.
Noctilcula also slept with her brother, so I guess this is not nearly as bad.

Baby, that is old Noctilcula. New Noctilcula is a brooding artist sitting alone at picturesque 'lonely' locations (note- the church of Noctilcula is selling portraits of her in those scenes for $49.99. By from your local Hot Topic now, available for a limited time).


lemeres wrote:
Seisho wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Seisho wrote:
The former succubus queen visiting desna, meeting with sarenrae bringing a bottle of wine, now let shelyn pop in and lets see what happens...uhm... sorry, oftracked a little
ew.... wasn't Nocticula dating Sarenrae's daughter at one point? That seems like it is way too messy.
Noctilcula also slept with her brother, so I guess this is not nearly as bad.
Baby, that is old Noctilcula. New Noctilcula is a brooding artist sitting alone at picturesque 'lonely' locations (note- the church of Noctilcula is selling portraits of her in those scenes for $49.99. By from your local Hot Topic now, available for a limited time).

This is now one my favorite snide god descriptions up there with some person way back when saying Shelyn is the goddess of the participation trophy...

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