Halfling's Human Shadow and Stealthing


Rules Questions


So per the Stealth entry, the action for stealth is "Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

Could a halfling with Human Shadow (ability to use creature's larger than himself to stealth without penalty), attack an enemy and immediately use stealth again against *other* enemies, if he can use the enemy he hit to break line of sight/use as concealment per the Human Shadow alternate trait. When he does this, is it no action/free action, or do I need to reserve a move action to try and end my turn by stealthing?

Part of Human Shadow Trait: "These halflings can use Stealth to hide behind creatures at least one size category larger than themselves, without any other source of concealment or cover."

Liberty's Edge

If you start out hidden then your first attack is made from stealth (e.g. can get sneak attack bonuses). At that point everyone notices the arrow (or whatever) and is looking for where it came from. If you continue making attacks then they generally spot you (i.e. barring magic, blindness, etc). Alternatively, you can move to make a stealth check to get back out of sight before anyone spots you.

Human Shadow lets you use larger creatures as the cover to hide behind, but doesn't otherwise change these rules... you can hide behind them before other enemies see you OR keep attacking. Not both.

If your GM allows skill unlocks then you can potentially get sneak attack on all ranged attacks in a round with 15 ranks of stealth... but would then be out of stealth.

The Master Sniper feat allows you to get off two shots and can potentially be combined with the Manyshot feat to fire two arrows with the first shot (three arrows total). Alternatively, the Startoss Style feat tree can allow you to 'ricochet' a single ranged attack off multiple targets (doing damage to each) and then attempt to hide again.

All that being said... what you are really looking for is anything which allows you to see your enemies, but prevents them from seeing you. Greater Invisibility, firing from inside a Tiny Hut spell, darkness plus Darkvision, Fog Cloud plus fog sight, etc. In those circumstances you are automatically hidden/stealthed w/o having to make stealth checks... and can thus make all ranged attacks from concealment.


This isn’t for a ranged attack build, it’s for melee. I built a way that I’ll maintain sneak attack vs my target after the first hit, I’m not worried about that. My main question is at what point do I get to hide from other enemies again (not my target) since it’s my actual target (assuming that’s he’s medium sized or larger) providing me the concealment to hide from enemies on the opposite side of my target. And if I *can’t* hide this turn, and remain adjacent to my target, do I get to immediately make a hide check again (vs other enemies, not my target) since I’m starting my turn with the ability to hide from every enemy on the opposite side of my target.

I don’t buy into the “if one enemy knows your position all of them do” unwritten rule. What if I’m able to silence the creature I attack so it can’t call out? What if you’re playing against enemies that don’t/can’t communicate? What if you’re playing against mindless creatures? It ends my stealth when I attack, but I’m still behind soft cover, so when can I attempt to re-stealth using the same soft cover (my target) against enemies other than my target, assuming the other enemies don’t immediately close on me, like they’re busy with my teammates or entangled etc etc

I’m familiar with easy ways to get concealment, that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m asking specifically how this one interaction with Human Shadow works when you’re using your target as the cover/concealment necessary to hide from enemies that are not your target

EDIT: And there’s precedent for this, from this part of the rules:

“Soft cover provided by creatures at least one size category larger than you does allow you to attempt Stealth checks against other creatures not already aware of your presence at a –10 penalty. If the creature providing the cover knows which square you occupy and is trying to avoid concealing you, this penalty increases to –20.”

So this is my current guess: I successfully move from C/C to attack my choice enemy. That enemy and anyone not on the other side of that enemy immediately notice me after attacking, but since I’m ending my turn with soft cover vs enemies on the other side of him, that turn I get to make a stealth check at -10 to avoid being noticed by them (it’s only -10 instead of -20 because human shadow removed the initial -10 penalty of trying to use a creature larger than you for hiding)

Liberty's Edge

RAWmonger wrote:
This isn’t for a ranged attack build, it’s for melee.

So... you cited the sniping rules... for a melee build? I'm confused, but... moving on.

"Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below)."

Are you sniping? No. Ok, then you make an attack and immediately lose stealth.

RAWmonger wrote:
My main question is at what point do I get to hide from other enemies again (not my target) since it’s my actual target (assuming that’s he’s medium sized or larger) providing me the concealment to hide from enemies on the opposite side of my target.

To use stealth you have to move. So there might be some theoretical way to do it with one of the feats/options which allows you to get multiple attacks while moving... but every time you attack you'd be out of stealth again. So even with an option like that you'd be looking at trying to stealth after ALL the attacks have finished. Which, theoretically, you can do even with just a 5' step... provided you can get behind something to conceal yourself... in which case yes, that big lumbering human you just stabbed counts.

RAWmonger wrote:
And if I *can’t* hide this turn, and remain adjacent to my target, do I get to immediately make a hide check again (vs other enemies, not my target) since I’m starting my turn with the ability to hide from every enemy on the opposite side of my target.

If you start your turn observed then you need to move behind cover (or use Bluff to create a diversion while you move) to hide... but again this can be just a 5' step, and again yes you can use one opponent as cover from others.

RAWmonger wrote:
I don’t buy into the “if one enemy knows your position all of them do” unwritten rule.

Nope, no such rule. Your stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of each enemy separately. An enemy that sees you might give his allies a bonus on the check by pointing and saying, 'he is over there', but stealth vs perception is determined separately for each pair of participants.

RAWmonger wrote:
So this is my current guess: I successfully move from C/C to attack my choice enemy. That enemy and anyone not on the other side of that enemy immediately notice me after attacking, but since I’m ending my turn with soft cover vs enemies on the other side of him, that turn I get to make a stealth check at -10 to avoid being noticed by them (it’s only -10 instead of -20 because human shadow removed the initial -10 penalty of trying to use a creature larger than you for hiding)

EVERYONE immediately notices you after attacking... and since you moved up to the target before the attack you can't make a 5' step. Thus, you end the turn observed by everyone.

You seem to be arguing that because you COULD use the enemy as concealment for a stealth check that you are automatically concealed even after doing something that breaks stealth. It doesn't work that way. When you are attacking you can't be hiding... and when you are done attacking you need some kind of movement action (at minimum a 5' step) to hide yourself.


Once combat is joined, there is no such thing as "behind", so you can't hide behind creatures larger than you. You still get the other bonuses so long as you're within 30 feet of a human, though.


I agree with the rest of what CBDunk has said, but there absolutely is a “behind” during combat. Not an absolute objective “behind,” but certainly a subjective. If I’m on one side of a creature, someone on the other side is “behind” that creature relative to me. An individual acts on his own axis without having a front/behind, but there is still certainly relative positioning of multiple creatures.

I’m not hiding from my target by bring “behind” him, I’m hiding from the creatures on the opposite side of him (behind him relative to me) by breaking line of effect.

If you don’t accept relative positioning of creatures/objects and refuse to acknowledge a “behind”, then you can never gain any cover or concealment after combat starts, because it requires you to be behind that C/C, relative to the creature you’re trying to gain C/C from


Oops, that makes sense. I misread the text for the racial trait as hiding from the creature itself, not from other creatures.


Ahhh yeah, that would be busted. I do like the idea of trying to hide under the legs of a large+ creature though

Liberty's Edge

RAWmonger wrote:
I agree with the rest of what CBDunk has said, but there absolutely is a “behind” during combat.

I don't think I said that. Yes, you can be behind the target you stabbed and use them as partial cover against ranged attacks from their allies... and the only thing preventing you from hiding behind them (with Human Shadow or just normal stealth at a penalty) is that you are attacking or don't have an action available.

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