Trips vs Feints for Rogues? And are kukris good?

[GeneralSleen]

I am working resurrecting a character I played PF1 . He's human rogue raised a gnome organized crime family.. Whereas in 1st edition the gnome thing was mostly about flavor, there are some interesting mechanical things to do with the adopted ancestry feat. For this character, i'm considering gnome weapon familiarity, which gives training and access to kukri, glaive and gnome weapons. And/or a familiar down the road with the animal accomplice ancestry feat.He'll be Rogue who takes Bard dedication, so assume I'll have at least 14 CHR for all builds.

Question I'm having is whether to lean more into feinting or tripping, given that kukri has the trip weapon quality. The options I'm considering are:

Scoundrel racket. Prioritze Cha for feints and Dex. Dump Str. Forget about gnome weapon feat or kukris.
Scoundrel racket. Prioritize and Str and Cha and dump Dex. Get Medium armor proficiency. Trip or feint depending on enemy.
Ruffian racket. Priortize STR and focus on trips with kukris via gnome weapon feat. Dump dex.

I guess the main question is whether trips or feints are generally better in combat for a rogue. (this is for PFS btw.) And whether kukris and the trip weapon quality, while flavorful, is worth the investment for trip build. Scoundrel really fits my concept for the character but I read on another thread it's not very good...

[SuperBidi]

There are differences between tripping and feinting:
- Feinting doesn't affect your MAP. But it targets Perception (which is high on most monsters). Feint only helps you (unless you critically succeed with Scoundrel Racket). Some monsters are immune to feint.
- Tripping affects your MAP. It target Reflex (which is low on many monsters, especially the big ones). It grants its bonus for your whole party, not only you. And the monster will have to lose one action standing up. Some monsters may be immune to trip, but really few.

So, to sum up, tripping is way better than feinting, but it's also a bit more costly. Feint is a bit disappointing, I would not focus on it. I have a Scoundrel Rogue and she only feinted once.

Also, Scoundrel Racket is quite bad if you want to focus on Dexterity or Strength. It's good if you want to focus on Charisma (in general, if you aim at some Arcane Trickster build).

So, I would encourage you to either go Thief or Ruffian Racket considering your build. And either focus on Strength or take Assurance(Athletics) and use Assurance Trip as your third action.

[Tribon]

Oh man, you have no idea how great this is. As a scoundrel rogue, you're able to take Distracting Feint at second, which gives a -2 circumstance penalty to the enemy's perception and reflex, a penalty which there's pretty much no other way to inflict. This makes your future feints against that enemy more effective and also makes them easier to trip. Also because the kukri has finesse and trip, you can use dexterity for your athletics check to trip with it, so you can focus on dex without requiring strength. Even if you use assurance for your athletics check, it'll stack with Distracting Feint so you'll be able to auto-trip way more enemies, especially when combined frightened or other status penalty to reflex.

[Narxiso]

I think kukris are pretty bad for rogues, as it doesn't scale with proficiency at level 5 and requires another feat at 13 (8 levels with 2 lower attack) to increase proficiency past trained. Unless I'm mistaken, as the increased proficiency in Gnome Weapon Familiarity says martial and simple gnome weapons and kukris don't have the gnome trait, while Gnome Weapon Expertise specifically says, "Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in a given weapon or weapons, you also gain that proficiency in the glaive, kukri, and all
gnome weapons in which you are trained." I think a feinter would be easier, but I would choose thief over scoundrel, as its very easy to get flat-footed this edition and you wouldn't need dex, str, and cha for your character's viability.

[Unicore]

If your intentions with Multiclassing are to pick up spell casting, then scoundrel with a high cha and Dex makes sense. The Kukuri is a good weapon that you can use finesse tripping with based on your athletics skill and not your weapon training which will let you be very good with it. You can always carry a rapier in your other hand to use as your primary striking weapon.

The penalty to Will saves that a scoundrel can grant makes for incredible team work with other casters in your party and you will be the master face of the party with your selection of skill feats and maxed out cha.

Basically, a scoundrel gets great feints and can still keep athletics at a higher level than many other martials, especially with a finesse trip weapon.

[Midnightoker]

Narxiso wrote:

I think kukris are pretty bad for rogues, as it doesn't scale with proficiency at level 5 and requires another feat at 13 (8 levels with 2 lower attack) to increase proficiency past trained. Unless I'm mistaken, as the increased proficiency in Gnome Weapon Familiarity says martial and simple gnome weapons and kukris don't have the gnome trait

I was under the impression this was errata'd in the first round that came out.

[Sossen]

Here's how I would do it: Grab unconventional weaponry as a human ancestry feat, select the kukri and have that be your "gnome familiarity" connection. Then, choose the thief racket. The damage boost is considerable and you want to be utilizing that finesse trait. Max DEX and go for as much CHA as you want - 18 in your casting stat is not necessary as a multiclass caster. CHA 16 is enough to feint as long as you are maxing deception, so it will always be an option along with tripping. Also, consider the option of fighting with two kukris and grabbing the Twin Feint feat to always have an easy flat-footed attack, which comes at the cost of complicating casting with material components.

[rooneg]

Midnightoker wrote:

Narxiso wrote:

I think kukris are pretty bad for rogues, as it doesn't scale with proficiency at level 5 and requires another feat at 13 (8 levels with 2 lower attack) to increase proficiency past trained. Unless I'm mistaken, as the increased proficiency in Gnome Weapon Familiarity says martial and simple gnome weapons and kukris don't have the gnome trait

I was under the impression this was errata'd in the first round that came out.

The only change to Gnome Weapon Familiarity in the errata was granting access to Kukris in addition to uncommon Gnome Weapons.

[GeneralSleen]

Thanks all. Can I definitely use Dex instead of Str to trip w/ the kukri?
If so that's perfect.

Also the spell casting bit is purely for utility, illusions etc not combat casting.

[Vlorax]

GeneralSleen wrote:

Thanks all. Can I definitely use Dex instead of Str to trip w/ the kukri?

If so that's perfect.

Yes, it has the Trip and Finesse traits, Trip lets you Trip with it and Finesse lets you use dex to make attacks with it, Trip has the Attack trait so should be all set.

[steelhead]

Great discussion as I am also putting together a 2nd edition PFS rogue. Thanks!

[Unicore]

The advantage of the Kukuri for a rogue is for a rgoue focused more on debuffing and battlefield control than for damage. You can carry one in your off-hand and it lets a Dex-based character trip very effectively, but it is not as good as a rapier or a short sword for general attacking. The number of feats needed to keep its attack level the same as rapier for a rogue is high, for it to be a main attacking weapon. However, it doesn't take any feats to hold it and use the trip and finesse traits effectively, so that is why I think it is more valuable for a high CHA scoundrel rogue than for a thief, or especially a ruffian, who it has almost no benefit for at all.

As a battlefield controller, you can feint and then trip and your enemy will be in a rough spot for your allies, but if your allies were counting on you to deal damage, then it is not the best build.

[jdripley]

My question is, how necessary is it to ignore Strength? Even if you are relying on Finesse for attack, only Thief racket allows you to add Dex to damage.

I almost wonder if Thief racket may be the better option... though sounds like there are some Scoundrel racket abilities you're gunning for.

But Thief Racket would get you best-possible Dex which will help the trip, and it would also leave you in a great position for dealing damage, which never hurts. After all, a dead enemy is very well controlled :)

[GeneralSleen]

Going with Thief racket, 18 Dex, 16 Chr. Let's me trip, feint, cast a spell, demoralize, or just attack depending on the situation. Also love the unorthodox combination of rapier and kukri (which I'll envision as some over-engineered knifey-thing) to fit the flamboyant and eccentric persona of the character.

Glad I reached out to the community. I came up w/ this character concept before I had even heard of Pathfinder. Cool to him come to life mechanically in a way that looks to be pretty viable in game. Thanks all!

[lemeres]

jdripley wrote:

My question is, how necessary is it to ignore Strength? Even if you are relying on Finesse for attack, only Thief racket allows you to add Dex to damage.

I almost wonder if Thief racket may be the better option... though sounds like there are some Scoundrel racket abilities you're gunning for.

But Thief Racket would get you best-possible Dex which will help the trip, and it would also leave you in a great position for dealing damage, which never hurts. After all, a dead enemy is very well controlled :)

Early on, you can rely on your good skill proficiency to keep up... and later, you can just pick strength as one of your numerous stat boosts. By level 10, it is pretty easy to get your stats fairly close to eachother since dex will hit the soft cap for stat growth after 18 dex.

The stat boosts in this edition are just too generous. For a build to not boost strength, it pretty much HAS to try to pump almost every single mental stat. Which is an option, of course, but not one you HAVE to take.

[FlashRebel]

Are you sure you can use Dexterity instead of Strength to trip with a finesse trip weapon? As far as I can read, there is no interaction between the two:

Finesse wrote:

You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

Trip wrote:

You can use this weapon to Trip with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand. This uses the weapon’s reach (if different from your own) and adds the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check. If you critically fail a check to Trip using the weapon, you can drop the weapon to take the effects of a failure instead of a critical failure.

[Squiggit]

FlashRebel wrote:

As far as I can read, there is no interaction between the two

Finesse lets you use Dex instead of Strength on attack rolls. Trip is an attack that uses strength.

[FlashRebel]

Squiggit wrote:

FlashRebel wrote:

As far as I can read, there is no interaction between the two

Finesse lets you use Dex instead of Strength on attack rolls. Trip is an attack that uses strength.

Trip uses an Athletics check and a finesse weapon adds Dexterity to attack rolls. Unless you have a feat to substitute an attack roll for a trip check, you don't get to use your Dexterity for it.

[Squiggit]

Quote:

Unless you have a feat to substitute an attack roll for a trip check

Uh. Trip is an attack roll.

[lemeres]

Squiggit wrote:

Quote:

Unless you have a feat to substitute an attack roll for a trip check

Uh. Trip is an attack roll.

Which is why it triggers MAP, and there are entire guides dedicated to how assurance athletics is a viable option because it lets you avoid MAP.

I get it. it is weird that a maneuvers got moved into a skill, which also interacts with attack rules (sidenote- I am sure that there will be things like telekinesis spells that wraps it into spell rules too).

[FlashRebel]

Squiggit wrote:

Quote:

Unless you have a feat to substitute an attack roll for a trip check

Uh. Trip is an attack roll.

An Athletics check and an attack roll are two different things. One is used for a special attack that targets the Reflex DC and uses your Athletics modifiers, the other is used for basic strikes that target AC and uses your attack modifiers. You don't use your Dexterity when you roll for Athletics.

[Squiggit]

FlashRebel wrote:

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

It has nothing to do with having cake and eating it too. It's just an attack roll is an attack roll. The book is pretty clear about saying that when you make an attack, the check you make is an attack roll. That's not a guess or an assumption, that's just what the CRB says.

[graystone]

FlashRebel wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Quote:

Unless you have a feat to substitute an attack roll for a trip check

Uh. Trip is an attack roll.

An Athletics check and an attack roll are two different things. One is used for a special attack that targets the Reflex DC and uses your Athletics modifiers, the other is used for basic strikes that target AC and uses your attack modifiers. You don't use your Dexterity when you roll for Athletics.

"When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

Trip Single Action Attack trait. I'm not sure how you can call an action with the attack trait not an attack action...

"The more attacks you make beyond your first in a single turn, the less accurate you become, represented by the multiple attack penalty. "

Attack trait: "An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty."

So we know trip "involves an attack", it's affected by MAP's [something only affecting attacks], and the roll you make with an attack is called an attack roll. What am I missing?

[FlashRebel]

graystone wrote:

FlashRebel wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Quote:

Unless you have a feat to substitute an attack roll for a trip check

Uh. Trip is an attack roll.

An Athletics check and an attack roll are two different things. One is used for a special attack that targets the Reflex DC and uses your Athletics modifiers, the other is used for basic strikes that target AC and uses your attack modifiers. You don't use your Dexterity when you roll for Athletics.

"When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

Trip Single Action Attack trait. I'm not sure how you can call an action with the attack trait not an attack action...

"The more attacks you make beyond your first in a single turn, the less accurate you become, represented by the multiple attack penalty. "

Attack trait: "An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty."

So we know trip "involves an attack", it's affected by MAP's [something only affecting attacks], and the roll you make with an attack is called an attack roll. What am I missing?

Perhaps the fact that tripping requires an Athletics check and Athletics is a Strength-based skill that doesn't care about what weapon you use?

[Aswaarg]

Bold parts are mine for enfasis.

Skill check:

Skill Checks and Skill DCs
Source Core Rulebook pg. 449
Pathfinder has a variety of skills, from Athletics to Medicine to Occultism. Each grants you a set of related actions that rely on you rolling a skill check. Each skill has a key ability score, based on the scope of the skill in question. For instance, Athletics deals with feats of physical prowess, like swimming and jumping, so its key ability score is Strength. Medicine deals with the ability to diagnose and treat wounds and ailments, so its key ability score is Wisdom. The key ability score for each skill is listed in Chapter 4: Skills. No matter which skill you’re using, you calculate a check for it using the following formula.
Skill check result = d20 roll + modifier of the skill’s key ability score + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties

You’re unlikely to be trained in every skill. When using a skill in which you’re untrained, your proficiency bonus is +0; otherwise, it equals your level plus 2 for trained, or higher once you become expert or better. The proficiency rank is specific to the skill you’re using. Aid from another character or some other beneficial situation may grant you a circumstance bonus. A status bonus might come from a helpful spell or magical effect. Sometimes tools related to the skill grant you an item bonus to your skill checks. Conversely, unfavorable situations might give you a circumstance penalty to your skill check, while harmful spells, magic, or conditions might also impose a status penalty. Using shoddy or makeshift tools might cause you to take an item penalty. Sometimes a skill action can be an attack, and in these cases, the skill check might take a multiple attack penalty, as described on page 446.

Chapter 4:Skills

Key Ability:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 233
Each skill is tied to a key ability. You add your modifier for this ability to checks and DCs when using that skill. For example, skulking about the shadows of a city at night with Stealth uses your Dexterity modifier, navigating the myriad personalities and power plays of court politics with Society uses your Intelligence modifier, and so on. The key ability for each skill is listed on Table 4–1: Skills, Key Abilities, and Actions on page 235 and also appears in parentheses following the skill’s name in the descriptions on the following pages. If the GM deems it appropriate for a certain situation, however, they might have you use a different ability modifier for a skill check or when determining your skill DC.

Also, same chapter:

Skill Descriptions:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 240
The following entries describe the skills in the game. The heading for each entry provides the skill’s name, with that skill’s key ability in parentheses. A brief description of the skill is followed by a list of actions you can use if you’re untrained in that skill, and then the actions you can perform if you are trained in that skill. Some actions list sample tasks for each rank to give you a better sense of what you can accomplish as your proficiency increases. As the actions of a skill aren’t comprehensive, there may be times when the GM asks you to attempt a skill check without using any of the listed actions, or times when the GM asks you to roll using a different key ability modifier.

Most skills include entries for success and failure, as well as descriptions of what occurs on a critical success or a critical failure. If either of the critical entries is absent, treat those results as a success or failure, as normal.

So, as I understand this, when you use a kukri to do a trip and want to apply finesse, you have to do an Athletics check (wich count as an atack roll), then you can ask the GM (or the GM can ask to you) to instead of using your Str, use your Dex to the Athletics check.

Another way to make an argument in favor of applying the Dex is. Why exist this kind of weapons if is not intended to work like that? Who would use a "Finesse" weapon with a trip (or disarm or shove) trait if you can´t apply the Dex. For example dagger vs sickle, dagger can be thrown and is versatile, the sickle only gives you trip. If you have low Str and good Dex (that´s why you are picking a finesse weapon), but Dex don´t apply to the Athlethics check. Why you would you pick sickle if daggers are better?

[Midnightoker]

FlashRebel wrote:

graystone wrote:

FlashRebel wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Quote:

Unless you have a feat to substitute an attack roll for a trip check

Uh. Trip is an attack roll.

An Athletics check and an attack roll are two different things. One is used for a special attack that targets the Reflex DC and uses your Athletics modifiers, the other is used for basic strikes that target AC and uses your attack modifiers. You don't use your Dexterity when you roll for Athletics.

"When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

Trip Single Action Attack trait. I'm not sure how you can call an action with the attack trait not an attack action...

"The more attacks you make beyond your first in a single turn, the less accurate you become, represented by the multiple attack penalty. "

Attack trait: "An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty."

So we know trip "involves an attack", it's affected by MAP's [something only affecting attacks], and the roll you make with an attack is called an attack roll. What am I missing?

Perhaps the fact that tripping requires an Athletics check and Athletics is a Strength-based skill that doesn't care about what weapon you use?

Because anything with the attack trait is an attack roll according to the definition of attack trait and attack roll.

The fact that it’s an athletics check doesn’t matter, because anything with the attack trait is considered an attack roll. There’s nothing that says attack rolls are only strikes or variations of strikes.

[Unicore]

It is fairly confusing in relationship to PF1, but attack roll is not synonymous with the word strike, and is much less of a specific piece of terminology than one might expect in PF2.

[Mathmuse]

FlashRebel wrote:

graystone wrote:

FlashRebel wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Quote:

Unless you have a feat to substitute an attack roll for a trip check

Uh. Trip is an attack roll.

An Athletics check and an attack roll are two different things. One is used for a special attack that targets the Reflex DC and uses your Athletics modifiers, the other is used for basic strikes that target AC and uses your attack modifiers. You don't use your Dexterity when you roll for Athletics.

"When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

Trip Single Action Attack trait. I'm not sure how you can call an action with the attack trait not an attack action...

"The more attacks you make beyond your first in a single turn, the less accurate you become, represented by the multiple attack penalty. "

Attack trait: "An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty."

So we know trip "involves an attack", it's affected by MAP's [something only affecting attacks], and the roll you make with an attack is called an attack roll. What am I missing?

Perhaps the fact that tripping requires an Athletics check and Athletics is a Strength-based skill that doesn't care about what weapon you use?

An Athletics check and an attack roll are two different things that sometimes overlap. The Athletics actions Force Open, Grapple, Shove, Trip, and Disarm have the Attack trait, so their Athletics check also counts as an attack roll.

Athletics checks ordinarily don't involve weapons. The rules don't let a character use a warhammer to force open a chest. Several weapon traits let the weapons be used with Athletics attacks; for example, the warhammer has the Shove trait so it can be used to Shove an enemy aside. A kukri has the Trip weapon trait so it can be used during a Trip action.

PF2 Core Rulebook, Equipment chapter, page 283 wrote:

Trip: You can use this weapon to Trip with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand. This uses the weapon’s reach (if different from your own) and adds the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check. If you critically fail a check to Trip using the weapon, you can drop the weapon to take the effects of a failure instead of a critical failure.

The usual reasons to use a Trip weapon on a Trip action is for the item bonus, the reach, or just because the hand is occupied with the weapon.

A kukri also has the finesse trait.

PF2 Core Rulebook, Equipment chapter, page 282 wrote:

Finesse: You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

Just like a guisarme can add reach to a Trip action, since it has both Trip and Reach, a kukri can add finesse to a Trip action, since it has both Trip and Finesse.

The reason is a long chain of traits: Attack, Trip, and Finesse, but the conclusion is that a kukri can let a Trip action use the Dexterity bonus instead of Strength bonus.

By the way, the wording on the Trip weapon trait says that tripping with a weapon still uses Athletics proficiency rather than weapon proficiency. Thus, a rogue who is Untrained in martial weapons but Expert in Athletics uses that Expert Athletics proficiency with a Trip action with a kukri.

[Vlorax]

The finesse trip thing has been discussed here multiple times, it is intended, there were even dev comments confirming it last time I looked.

There's no reason to rehash it in this thread to illuminate flashrebel

[Ravingdork]

Vlorax wrote:

The finesse trip thing has been discussed here multiple times, it is intended, there were even dev comments confirming it last time I looked.

There's no reason to rehash it in this thread to illuminate flashrebel

I kinda figured that was the case, but haven't seen it for myself yet. Can you please cite sources or post direct links?

[Vlorax]

Ravingdork wrote:

Vlorax wrote:

The finesse trip thing has been discussed here multiple times, it is intended, there were even dev comments confirming it last time I looked.

There's no reason to rehash it in this thread to illuminate flashrebel

I kinda figured that was the case, but haven't seen it for myself yet. Can you please cite sources or post direct links?

Link to previous discussion with dev quote

Thread where edge tried to put this to rest includes link to dev comment in thread (scroll up)

more discussion

I think it's pretty clear that finesse + Maneuver trait on a wep = can use finesse with that maneuver with that wep. Partially because if not Whips are the dumbest weapon in the game, and it feels intuitive to me if you're using dex to wave a sword around, you'd use dex to trip somebody with it.

Mostly I felt this post, about Trip vs Feints and Kukris probably isn't the place to have another discussion over this concept.