What is the level range of play for PFS2?


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Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

Angel Hunter D wrote:


Xathos of Varisia wrote:

Tactics are very much part of the game. I haven't had any issues with monster tactics in PFS2.

Recall Knowledge is actually pretty simple. The real trick is for the GM to decide just how much information that character would know. We had a nice conversation about Recall Knowledge on Tuesday's Arcane Mark.

Simple =/= consistent, easy, or clear. If I need to watch something to understand it, it was not sufficiently detailed in the book. Beyond that, you haven't actually addressed my problem with it - which is that it's entirely GM dependant.

Do you need a manual for how to do everything in a role-playing game? Some things are supposed to be GM dependent. Recall Knowledge is GM dependent in both editions of the game.

You watch and read things so you can gain experience from others. It is called synergy. On the Arcane Mark podcast we got together and discussed how various GMs deal with Recall Knowledge. My GMs get together and share tips and experiences about our sessions so we can become better GMs.

Here is the particular video from Arcane Mark.

Scarab Sages 3/5

Xathos of Varisia wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:


Xathos of Varisia wrote:

Tactics are very much part of the game. I haven't had any issues with monster tactics in PFS2.

Recall Knowledge is actually pretty simple. The real trick is for the GM to decide just how much information that character would know. We had a nice conversation about Recall Knowledge on Tuesday's Arcane Mark.

Simple =/= consistent, easy, or clear. If I need to watch something to understand it, it was not sufficiently detailed in the book. Beyond that, you haven't actually addressed my problem with it - which is that it's entirely GM dependant.

Do you need a manual for how to do everything in a role-playing game? Some things are supposed to be GM dependent. Recall Knowledge is GM dependent in both editions of the game.

You watch and read things so you can gain experience from others. It is called synergy. On the Arcane Mark podcast we got together and discussed how various GMs deal with Recall Knowledge. My GMs get together and share tips and experiences about our sessions so we can become better GMs.

Here is the particular video from Arcane Mark.

Yeah, that manual is called "rules" and I expect them to be written in more detail than "we don't care, ask the guy behind the screen." Especially when a big draw for the system is organized play.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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You think OP is a big draw for the system?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 *** Premier Event Coordinator

Perhaps OPF could publish some rules defining how recall knowledge should be adjudicated in PFS, but we need to stop saying that the rules need to be tailored to OP. The CRB is not written for a specific campaign, even one as big as PFS. There are some things intentionally left ambiguous in the CRB specifically so GMs can feel more supported in making their own decisions about the rules. Yes, a home game GM can do anything they want, but it is much easier and more readily accepted by players when you are clarifying an ambiguous rule than when you intentionally deviate from the rules as published. That goes a long way to building the trust of the players. The bottom line is if you need every single rule to be completely defined like a board game then RPGs, especially OP, may not be your cup of tea. As long as the GM is mostly consistent with their adjudication then it’s like balls and strikes in baseball. Perhaps the Gamemaster Guide will contain more advice on how to use recall knowledge. It would seem the appropriate place for something like that.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

Just exactly how much did you want to spend on the CRB? If Paizo were to go full bore and print every single possible rule in one book you would have at least a $150 price tag for the CRB.

Recall Knowledge is not that difficult. It is pretty simple. No rule book is ever going to be able to articulate the relationship between a GM and the players. It will always come down to a GM making decisions on the spot about certain things. It was that way in AD&D 1e and every RPG from that point on (only reason I didn't say OD&D is because I got to the table in time for AD&D 1e).

Silver Crusade

albadeon wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Organizationally, it's hard to design a program that goes consistently past 12th because we need to make sure there's plenty of support in the system for new players joining every quarter. That means we have to have 1-4s at least twice a quarter minimum, and if we have 1-4s we need 3-6s, which means we need 5-8s, etc.

Repeatables really seem like the way to go for the issue of providing content for new players. If you create maybe 10-12 well-written repeatable 1-4s with somewhat more "introductory" content in the first two seasons, those can be constantly reused to introduce new players to the game and level them past those first few less interesting levels. GMs can have a few of those prepared to be run on short notice should a new player show up, existing players can replay them easily to level up a new character (or even just play a pregen to make sure the new player actually has a legal table to play at), etc.

Introducing some new content even for 1-4 from time to time would of course be nice, but the availablity of a sufficient number of low-level repeatables should significantly trim down the amount of new low-level content that would otherwise need to be published, and allow authors to focus more on higher-level content.

It's not like new players care too much about the current meta-plot when starting out a new game, so I don't think each season needs to ensure it also provides up-to-date content for new players.

The majority of people don’t like to grind, so I don’t see this being a good idea.

Also that last line is pure assumption on your part and actively harmful in trying to get more people to join PFS.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Considering how Michael was talking about needing low-level adventures to support the new players joining every quarter, I don't see this as grinding at all. Sure, those repeatables could be used for existing players leveling up new characters, which I guess could be considered grinding, but for players new to the game and to society play in general, it's no such thing. And that is the primary target audience my comment was about.

If there were some good repeatable scenarios specifically written for introducing new players to PFS, that would serve perfectly well for their first few missions, even years after publication. Getting involved with the meta-plot is a process that happens gradually for new players, who are just learning the basics. They don't have the knowledge of who did what two seasons ago. This is likely hard to judge for those who were actively involved in society play for a long while, while those who only joined with the start PFS2 (and didn't get any of the nods and references in the museum part of 1-01) might see it more my way. It is not more of an assumption than your stance is, but mine at least comes from someone who has actively experienced that situation not long ago.

Why you feel the need to accuse me of being "actively harmful" baffles me. Dedicated introductory repeatables for new players running a level 1 or 2 character are not keeping people from joining PFS, most new players wouldn't even be able to tell that they're playing a beginner scenario from years ago! If anything, well-written beginner scenarios could provide a much better starting experience and would likely improve retention rate compared to being thrown into some random 1-4 that was currently the only scenario that the local players hadn't all already played. The advantage of having those scenarios be repeatable is that you could still easily provide a full table without having to worry about who has played what.

Also, I'm not talking about the current repeatables. They're okay and can be used for the purpose in a pinch, but not they don't seem to written with this particular audience in mind and are not particularly well suited for this purpose, imho. I'm hoping that the 1-99 introductory special might be closer to what I have in mind, but we'll see.

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Quote:
It's not like new players care too much about the current meta-plot when starting out a new game

I believe he meant that stating things like that is actively harmful, whether you meant it to be or not.

I can tell you that as a new PFS player, I was very much interested in the meta-plot on day one.

Scarab Sages 3/5

TOZ wrote:
You think OP is a big draw for the system?

Absolutely, it's the only reason I'm playing PF and how 9/10 of players I know got into the system. Without PFS I'd have never bought a single paizo product, and I don't buy things until they make it into AR.

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

Just exactly how much did you want to spend on the CRB? If Paizo were to go full bore and print every single possible rule in one book you would have at least a $150 price tag for the CRB.

Recall Knowledge is not that difficult. It is pretty simple. No rule book is ever going to be able to articulate the relationship between a GM and the players. It will always come down to a GM making decisions on the spot about certain things. It was that way in AD&D 1e and every RPG from that point on (only reason I didn't say OD&D is because I got to the table in time for AD&D 1e).

Yeah, I'd buy a CRB at that price point. And you still keep arguing a different point than the one I'm talking about: difficulty has NOTHING to do with what I'm saying. it's ALL about CONSISTENCY.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Angel Hunter D wrote:
Absolutely, it's the only reason I'm playing PF and how 9/10 of players I know got into the system. Without PFS I'd have never bought a single paizo product, and I don't buy things until they make it into AR.

Sounds like a fairly small sample.

Silver Crusade

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
It's not like new players care too much about the current meta-plot when starting out a new game

I believe he meant that stating things like that is actively harmful, whether you meant it to be or not.

I can tell you that as a new PFS player, I was very much interested in the meta-plot on day one.

This ^

1/5

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
the core rules aren't very friendly to organized play

I would disagree, but it’s an opinion I hear periodically. I find that the rules are no more complicated that 1E, quite the opposite in fact, but they are new and different which can make it feel mysterious. Given some time to become familiar not only with the rules, but the methodology of the rules and I believe most players will warm up to the edition. Personally, I think 2E is better than 1E, but that is a subjective evaluation so I’m not going to suggest it is universally true. 2E is different and a good portion of our community dislike change. I think that is the biggest issue, moreso than whether or not the rules are actually harder or less user friendly. YMMV

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

"Ask your GM" is pretty much the definition of not friendly to organized play, and that phrase appears on practically every page of the CRB.

It is not a matter of more or less complicated, it is a matter of completely undefined.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 *** Premier Event Coordinator

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We might be reading a different book, because many of us find the 2E CRB to be much more deliberate with its language. In most discussions about the rules, we have found that it’s not that the rules are ambiguous, it’s that the person is struggling with shedding the 1E concept of RAI, and misapplying the 2E design methodology. But, that is a conversation to be had over a longer discussion and this thread has significantly derailed from its purpose, so as one of those responsible for helping it get that way, I won’t ask for a laundry list of the rules you are referring to and say that’s better suited for other threads.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

3/5 **

Has there been any ipdatr as to when level ranges will increase?

Dark Archive 4/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku

Unless I missed something, there's like 7 or 8 scenarios at 7-10, so you can hit level 11 with only a single character. There's just two scenarios at level 9-12, which means that it's not currently even possible to hit level 13+ by playing scenarios.

Seems unlikely that we'd get higher level scenarios when there aren't enough scenarios to hit those higher levels yet.

The first 9-12 was published after just two 7-10 scenarios (although a third 7-10 was published during the same year), but the first 7-10 scenario was published only after we already had seven 5-8 scenarios, so... Maybe we'll get a 11-14 after we get 0-5 more 9-12 scenarios?

3/5 **

Tomppa wrote:

Unless I missed something, there's like 7 or 8 scenarios at 7-10, so you can hit level 11 with only a single character. There's just two scenarios at level 9-12, which means that it's not currently even possible to hit level 13+ by playing scenarios.

Seems unlikely that we'd get higher level scenarios when there aren't enough scenarios to hit those higher levels yet.

The first 9-12 was published after just two 7-10 scenarios (although a third 7-10 was published during the same year), but the first 7-10 scenario was published only after we already had seven 5-8 scenarios, so... Maybe we'll get a 11-14 after we get 0-5 more 9-12 scenarios?

Thank you for that information. What level can one get to with AP's or modules?

2/5 5/5 *****

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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Tomppa wrote:

Unless I missed something, there's like 7 or 8 scenarios at 7-10, so you can hit level 11 with only a single character. There's just two scenarios at level 9-12, which means that it's not currently even possible to hit level 13+ by playing scenarios.

Seems unlikely that we'd get higher level scenarios when there aren't enough scenarios to hit those higher levels yet.

The first 9-12 was published after just two 7-10 scenarios (although a third 7-10 was published during the same year), but the first 7-10 scenario was published only after we already had seven 5-8 scenarios, so... Maybe we'll get a 11-14 after we get 0-5 more 9-12 scenarios?

Thank you for that information. What level can one get to with AP's or modules?

20 with AP/Adventure credits, since they aren't level locked. (6 AoA, 6 EC, 1 FoP, 1 Slither, 3 AV, 3 QofFF ....) But there's not much point from leveling using AP/Adventure credit to go past the level range that scenarios exist for.


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So the highest current game level for PFS2e is approximately level 11? Reason I am asking is I started playing Society games in Sept 2023, and have never thought about any game level cap until tonight. I am in one 5e private campaign (started February 23, 2023): it will probably finish in 2-4 months, at level 12, right now at level 10). The reason I am in it is that it was the first game I could find and join after hearing about the OGL disaster and deciding I wanted to play RPG’s again.. PFS2e games started at my local game store in Sept 2023 (and I joined w/ the first game that was offered). I have a lvl 5, lvl2, & lvl 1 characters so far (with a new level 1 going to be started soon and undoubtedly more as time goes on). The people in my 5e group are not prospective PF2e players (they have quibbles about this and that, most are not worth mentioning). But one quibble was the complaint about there being a level cap to society play (the person who mentioned this did play frequently in old PFS 1st edition games). I told them I’ve never heard of a level cap. I have actually joined 2 different society groups. The one that is farther from me (where I play less) has an upcoming 7-10 level game (PFS2 5-11, Equal Exchanges - The Hidden Current). With my nearby Society group, we are finally reaching level 5-8 on Feb 21 (PFS 2-08: A Frosty Mug). I also got into a private PF2e game playing the AP Malevolence (so I have 3 different places to play to gain exp for PFS2). Now, finding this thread tonight after wondering about a level cap, it appears that level 11 might be the current level top (not counting playing AP’s). But it seems like there is a chance that scenarios may reach level 11-14 if enough players keep playing and those scenarios get made. I plan to keep playing in PFS2e for a long time (once my 5e game finishes, I won’t be searching for another). I personally have no worry about any kind of PFS2e level top. If there is one, I will just keep playing different new characters at the lower levels.

Dark Archive 4/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku

There's no hard level cap. You can currently get to level 12 with just PFS content, higher if you include AP's and modules, but there are no scenarios (yet) for level 13+ characters.

So, there's a soft level cap of 12, but it probably/hopefully rises as new content gets published.


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Tomppa wrote:

There's no hard level cap. You can currently get to level 12 with just PFS content, higher if you include AP's and modules, but there are no scenarios (yet) for level 13+ characters.

So, there's a soft level cap of 12, but it probably/hopefully rises as new content gets published.

Thanks for your reply: Soft level cap of 12, hopefully rising in the near future for PFS & no level cap for AP and module play is the perfect way to remember this.

Dark Archive 4/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku

Oh, right, obviously level 20 is the actual hard cap, but what I mean is that there hasn't been any word on limiting society content to a specific level.


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Yes, I realize/understand that lvl 20 is the actual hard cap for AP and module play (and if Paizo ever writes PFS scenarios that get to lvl 20). Too late to edit my previous post.

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