I really want to make a Sword and Shield char, possibly a palie. I've been making exclusively TWH characters for all my martial classes since the beginning of time and I think it's time for a change.
Largely though, it seems like shield bash seemed to be what Sword and Shield guys get. Is that really it? Sure you get that little bit more of AC, but the shield bash seems to be what all the feats are about. You do a tiny bit a damage, a little more if you have spikes, and maybe a bull rush, which also seems kinda lame to me. You get to push them back a little. But unless I have a reach weapon and combat reflexes to combo that with or there's a convenient cliff to knock them off (a one-trick pony that a DM would learn from *really* quickly), I don't see it being terribly useful.
See, I *want* to like Sword and Shield. It's the classic Knight look. The Link Look. So how is SnS worthwhile?
Well with the right feats it's basically like normal two weapon fighting... but on steroids. You get to ditch some of the penalties, you get the battlefield control of the free bull Rush and you don't have to enchant the shield as a weapon.
Then you take the feat Bashing Finish to get extra attacks with your shield. Spiked Impaler is also a good feat to take (you bull rush someone you get to take another attack on them with your armor spikes).
I think the sword and shield route is worth it, but like anything it takes a lot of feat/stat work to get there. Eventually you're bashing/bull rushing people through your allies threat ranges to provoke AOOs or to knock them down and generating extra hits on criticals. I think when worked right it would be an excellent "tank". Hit points can lag a little because of the beefy shield enhanced AC. Personally I'd use a mobile fighter archetype, but the polearm fighter for reach makes good sense too. I guess it all depends on if you would rather have TWF or reach and another feat chain at your disposal. I think the reach fighter will lag on damage.
Or go phalanx fighter and have reach and a shield.
Hit them with the shield, bull rush them, then hit them with the polearm.
The problem is at later levels when you critical with your reach weapon and can't do the follow up with the shield. I think a kukri/large shield is ideal.
That could be a problem depending on what movement you have already taken in the round. Lunge could be a possible solution for this at the first 5' mark, but honestly I would probably go with a trip with the reach weapon.
Bashing Finish and Shield Master do more than just bull rush! High level though.
As a paladin, your smite evil ability combines well with two-weapon fighting with your shield. More attacks = more smiting.
A ranger is another option, as if you take the TWF combat style, you don't have to have as high a dex, making your stats a little easier to sort out.
Getting a full attack on someone and then knocking them away from you so they can't similarly full attack is not to be underestimated.
Getting a full attack on someone and then knocking them away from you so they can't similarly full attack is not to be underestimated.
They can just five foot adj back. No fuss, no muss. And true, bull rush will give your allies AoO, which is nice if your buddies are on the ball and also martial.
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Getting a full attack on someone and then knocking them away from you so they can't similarly full attack is not to be underestimated.They can just five foot adj back. No fuss, no muss. And true, bull rush will give your allies AoO, which is nice if your buddies are on the ball and also martial.
Not if you push them 10 feet.
Not if you push them 10 feet.Getting a full attack on someone and then knocking them away from you so they can't similarly full attack is not to be underestimated.They can just five foot adj back. No fuss, no muss. And true, bull rush will give your allies AoO, which is nice if your buddies are on the ball and also martial.
Or if you push them back 5', then take a 5' step away, creating a 10' gap.
The problem is at later levels when you critical with your reach weapon and can't do the follow up with the shield. I think a kukri/large shield is ideal.
Be aware that the heavy shield + kukri isn't a good way for the paladin to go since he can't use his lay on hands or cast spells.
Just give them a healing kick to the teeth. That ought to take their mind off the pain of elsewhere. :P
(And yes I know it's illegal.)
1d8+6d6+20 damage per hit while two weapon fighting with half price weapons, that improve AC as you improve their to hit and damage, at 12th level doesn't interest you?
prototype00
1d8+6d6+20 damage per hit while two weapon fighting with half price weapons, that improve AC as you improve their to hit and damage, at 12th level doesn't interest you?
prototype00
How do you figure that, out of curiosity?
I guess I don't like the concept of shield bash being just a form of TWF. TWF in PF just simply isn't as good as THF and it struggles to keep up. It's feat hungry and not even worth it.
So theoretically. How would you build Sword and Shield without the TWF/Shield Bash stuff?
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It's not just TWF. It's TWF with much better AC.
Besides the base +2 AC for the shield, remember that you can also make the shield magical. Getting a +2 magic bonus on your AC is much cheaper if it's +1 on your armor and +1 on your shield than if you had to put the whole +2 on your armor because you aren't using a shield. Heavy armor and shield makes for a very tough egg to crack.
It's not just TWF. It's TWF with much better AC.
Besides the base +2 AC for the shield, remember that you can also make the shield magical. Getting a +2 magic bonus on your AC is much cheaper if it's +1 on your armor and +1 on your shield than if you had to put the whole +2 on your armor because you aren't using a shield. Heavy armor and shield makes for a very tough egg to crack.
Hah, yes, I understand that shields make your AC better. ;)
My wife did a taldan duelist -- technically she was a sword and board type even though it was falcata and buckler. She used the shield focus and greater shield focus feats and that was about it on the shield side.
1d8+6d6+20 damage per hit while two weapon fighting with half price weapons, that improve AC as you improve their to hit and damage, at 12th level doesn't interest you?
prototype00
How do you figure that, out of curiosity?
It was a build I made to leverage the ranger's early access (lvl6) to shield mastery, along with the fact that shields are bashing weapons and thus qualify for the sap adept and sap mastery feats.
I had a build here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz56vc?12th-level-Dual-Shield-damage-dealer-36d6- 80
But there are some things off with the initial calculation. The breakdown works out to:
1d8: Bashing large steel shield
+ 6d6: Sap Mastery and 3d6 sneak attack
+ 12: Sap adept and rolling 6 Sneak attack dice
+ 4: +4 enhancement on shields
+ 6: Str bonus
+ 4: Guide bonus to damage with guide ranger archetype
So really, 1d8 + 6d6 + 24, for four attacks. Also, most enemies are running away frightened after you're done with them, due to the thug rogue archetype.
Shield mastery allows you to use a shield's enhancement bonus to defense as an enhancement bonus to hit and damage, and it elmininates the penalty for TWF.
I'm not saying the THF can't outdamage this guy, but he has to try pretty hard to beat a potential 4d8 + 24d6 + 96 per round at lvl 12.
prototype00
My wife did a taldan duelist -- technically she was a sword and board type even though it was falcata and buckler. She used the shield focus and greater shield focus feats and that was about it on the shield side.
That's actually my namesake. I made a taldan duelist who was "the great uniter" of the hobgoblin people. I also claimed that he made up the martial art cause the falcata and buckler stuff was so weird.