Prehensile hair attack in activation round?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 52 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Hi, my question is about the witch hex prehensile hair. I searched a bunch of threads, but all of them were arguing about what kind of action activation is -- IMO, that's clear, activation is a standard action. However what I'm unclear on is whether the attack is included in the activation. That is to say, can you attack with the hair in the same round as you do the standard action of activation, or do you have to do standard action (activate) on round 1 and standard action (attack) on round 2, thus having a dead round for the activation.

The relevant passages are:

Quote:
Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Quote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. (...) The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments.

The way I read it, it is a standard action to use the hex, and using the hex means 'instantly causing hair to grow *AND* manipulating the hair as if it were a limb'. It does not state that the manipulation has to occur on a subsequent round.

Using the hair as if it were a limb includes the possibility of attacking with it, so the standard action includes 1) causing the hair to grow *AND* 2) using it to attack as a limb, both in one standard action.

Why is this ruling wrong, if it is?

Dark Archive

Quote:
The way I read it, it is a standard action to use the hex, and using the hex means 'instantly causing hair to grow *AND* manipulating the hair as if it were a limb'. It does not state that the manipulation has to occur on a subsequent round.

That's not the way I read it. It says that activating the hair is a standard action. It does not say that this comes with a free attack. The "instant" is flavour text, not rules. While it doesn't say that manipulation has to happen on a subsequent round, you do not have a standard action left in this round with which to attack. My reading is no.


"It does what it says and it says what it does."

I agree with Librain, the "instantly cause her hair to grow up to 10 feet long" is flavor text to help foster imagination. It doesn't actually say that you can use it to make an attack or do anything in the round that you activate it, therefore you cannot automatically infer that you may use it to make an attack in the same round. This is a non-sequitur fallacy in where x does not follow y, and it's a dangerous precedent to establish, because you're essentially making up things that aren't explicitly enumerated in any general or specific rule that would be applicable to this specific ability. Especially since there are other ability/spell rules that have that exact verbage explicitly enumerated; for instance, general touch spell rules have that verbage. "As part of casting a touch spell, you make make a touch attack in the same round bla bla bla".

That being said, "your table, your rules". There's no reason that I could see why activating this and being able to use it to attack/manipulate in the same round is game-breaking, and in my opinion, it's a viable candidate for a house rule. You should talk to your DM; the worst case scenario is that he says no.


Yes, I can see it as part of an attack action, but it isn't explicitly stated as such, and assuming is problematic.


I took “instantly” to mean that using this hex is “not an action”.


Melkiador wrote:
I took “instantly” to mean that using this hex is “not an action”.

It's a supernatural ability, and the general rule is: Unless otherwise stated, using a Supernatural Ability is a Standard Action.

It's "Instantly" when compared to normal hair growth, but since it doesn't give an action type (free/immediate/swift/move/standard/full-round) it reverts to the default.


MrCharisma wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I took “instantly” to mean that using this hex is “not an action”.
It's a supernatural ability, and the general rule is: Unless otherwise stated, using a Supernatural Ability is a Standard Action.

And I’m saying “instantly” is stating otherwise.

But if you have trouble with that, consider that the hex is only “used” once and then the hair can be manipulated as desired in one minute increments. Using another set of minutes isn’t a second “use”.


Melkiador wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I took “instantly” to mean that using this hex is “not an action”.
It's a supernatural ability, and the general rule is: Unless otherwise stated, using a Supernatural Ability is a Standard Action.
And I’m saying “instantly” is stating otherwise.

I think it wouod have to give you an action type for that to be the case since "instantly" isn't a defined action type it doesn't count.

Melkiador wrote:
But if you have trouble with that, consider that the hex is only “used” once and then the hair can be manipulated as desired in one minute increments. Using another set of minutes isn’t a second “use”.

Agreed. Activate = Standard action, maintain = free action.


If it was supposed to be “instantly” activated, I think it would need to provide an action type other than Standard, like Free, Immediate, or Swift action. Unless otherwise explicitly stated in the specific ability, all Supernatural abilities are Standard actions. So “instantly” means nothing.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The activation is clearly a standard action. That's not a discussion. There is no activation action stated in the hex, thereby it clearly defaults to the default rules for a hex which is a standard action.

But it seems pretty clear that the standard action includes both 1) growing the hair *AND* 2) using it as a limb, fr.ex. attacking. So you can attack in the round where you perform the standard action.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Samy wrote:
But it seems pretty clear that the standard action includes both 1) growing the hair *AND* 2) using it as a limb, fr.ex. attacking. So you can attack in the round where you perform the standard action.

How is that clear?


Samy wrote:
But it seems pretty clear that the standard action includes both 1) growing the hair *AND* 2) using it as a limb, fr.ex. attacking. So you can attack in the round where you perform the standard action.

You can't attack with a limb just because it's there, you need to take an action to do so (usually the attack action or the full-attack action), not counting AoOs.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Samy wrote:

The activation is clearly a standard action. That's not a discussion. There is no activation action stated in the hex, thereby it clearly defaults to the default rules for a hex which is a standard action.

But it seems pretty clear that the standard action includes both 1) growing the hair *AND* 2) using it as a limb, fr.ex. attacking. So you can attack in the round where you perform the standard action.

It doesn't say that anywhere in the ability. You're making a non-sequitor fallacy. That's like saying "I should also gain a +2 to Trip attempts because it's an extra limb".

"It says what it does and it does what it says." To suggest the ability does anything else, you're just making things up. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, your table your rules. Make a house rule. But remember that this is a Rules Forum; RAI is king, but RAW is god.


The whole purpose of growing your hair is to use it as a limb. No other attack hex has a delay of this sort and considering how weak the HEX is to begin with I doubt it needs to be further weakened. Having this hex take two round to become effective seems to be overly harsh especially for something that has a limit on the uses per day.

The rules also state that “using” a hex is a standard action. If I grow my hair and do nothing with it have I actually used it? Using the hex implies that the hex is used to do something, simply growing the hair is not doing anything.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The whole purpose of growing your hair is to use it as a limb. No other attack hex has a delay of this sort and considering how weak the HEX is to begin with I doubt it needs to be further weakened. Having this hex take two round to become effective seems to be overly harsh especially for something that has a limit on the uses per day.

The rules also state that “using” a hex is a standard action. If I grow my hair and do nothing with it have I actually used it? Using the hex implies that the hex is used to do something, simply growing the hair is not doing anything.

I strongly disagree that it's a weak hex. I would argue that it's one of the best hexes simply because of it's versatility.

I wouldn't say it's a Top 3 Hex though, because Evil Eye, Misfortune, and Cackle are the top three hexes by a landslide. The next best 3 hexes would probably be a fight between Slumber, Flight, Coven, Fortune, or Prehensile Hair depending on one's playstyle and priorities.

That being said, Prehensile Hair is highly versatile simply because of its utility as an extra limb. Delivering Touch effects like Touch of Idiocy, any Cure spell, even acting as the limb that delivers a Beguiling Gift or performs Aid Another, all while keeping you 10ft away is absolutely invaluable (Standard Action: Cast Touch Spell, Hex, Any Spell, or Do Any Standard Action with 10ft range, Move Action: Cackle, 5ft step away = always staying 15ft from enemies at the end of your turn, which means less Full Attack actions on yourself, and an AoO if they attempt to move into your threatened area-- if you cause damage with this AoO it can trigger other effects from Teamwork Feats or allies with Opportunist to gain an additional AoO, whatever etc., lots of stuff can trigger off of you landing this tiny little AoO). You can use Prehensile Hair to aid you in Intimidate checks, Pick Pocketing, reloading a Firearm/Crossbow (or someone else's Firearm/Crossbow), holding a Wand, retreiving stored items, open doors/cabinets/chests, provide a Flanking Bonus, Slumber+CoupDeGrace, AND, you can pick up heavy things with it using your Int Mod instead of your Str Mod like a Hair Forklift without harming your neck/head; a generous DM might even allow grabbing things and throwing them with the Throw Anything feat or performing a Disarm attempt....

I mean the possibilities only end with your own imagination of what you can do with it.


Another thing you can do with it is cast multiple charges of Frostbite on yourself and wade into combat staying 15ft away from everyone, and then start casting Hexes. Anything that moves through your threatened area gets an AoO and they're now Fatigued if you touch them, you don't even have to cause damage with the AoO, you just have to defeat their Touch AC and the Frostbite still gets discharged. Frostbite has No Save too.

Get a MM Rod of Rime Spell and now you're Fatiguing+Entangling. And if you're really feeling froggy, grab Combat Reflexes. If for some reason you'd like to dedicate yourself to this style of play, you can even dip a level in Magus and pick up Arcane Accuracy for +Int to Hit.


When I say Slumber + Coup De Grace, I mean this: the attack itself deals 1d3 damage, and I would argue that it could be piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage, depending on the form you'd like the hair to take for any given attack you'd like to make. You Slumber a target, and the following round perform the Coup De Grace. For a basic Coup de Grace, you could slit(slashing) or perforate(piercing) the throat, or for flavor of the true macabre-ness of a Witch, you could say "I want my hair to enter every cranial orifice of this guy; ears, mouth, nostrils, and eyes; and reach my hair into his brain, lungs, and stomach, and rip everything out, and then fling the eye, organ, and brain matter all over his stupid-looking friends to Intimidate them, and scream in a feral tone "YOU'RE NEXT! MOAR BLOOD FOR <INSERT PATRON OR DEITY>" gleefully cackling as I lick the blood from my hair as if licking blood off of several knives."


While prehensile hair is versatile it is limited by several things. The first and most important is that you have a limited duration per day. 1 Min. per level is not that bad, but it still means you have to ration out its uses or you may end up running out. If your party only a limited number of encounters per day it may not seem that limited, but if you do more it is quite limited. Most hexes can be used an unlimited number of times per day. If I have slumber hex I can keep casting it all day. A witch with the healing hex can actually heal an entire army.

The second reason it is limited is because most of its usefulness is reliant on other abilities. If you use it for delivering touch spells the spell is what makes it effective. It acts more as a power multiplies than an actual power. Hexes like slumber are in themselves useful without needing any other ability. The effectiveness of the hex is also limited by the other ability. For example if you don’t have any more touch spells to deliver that aspect becomes useless. Delivering touch spells at range can also be done multiple different ways. Any witch of 3rd level or higher can have their familiar deliver a touch spell. There is also the metamagic feat reach spell that gives your touch spell a range of close. Not to say that the ability to deliver touch spells is not useful, but it is hardly game breaking.

Prehensile hair is a good hex, but I would not consider it a top ranked hex.

RAW prehensile hair does bludgeoning damage. It is treated as a limb and unless you have a special attack those do bludgeoning damage, not slashing or piercing damage.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Get a MM Rod of Rime Spell and now you're Fatiguing+Entangling. And if you're really feeling froggy, grab Combat Reflexes. [H]If for some reason you'd like to dedicate yourself to this style of play, you can even dip a level in Magus and pick up Arcane Accuracy for +Int to Hit.[/b]

I like the idea, but you'd have to be a level 3 Magus to pick up an Arcana.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
No other attack hex has a delay of this sort ...

True, but every Polymorph spell that gives you natural attacks has a delay like this.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
... it is limited is because most of its usefulness is reliant on other abilities.

You mean like Cackle?

I get that you don't like it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. It has defensive, offensive and utility applications, and by level 5 or so should be usable as often as needed.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The rules also state that “using” a hex is a standard action. If I grow my hair and do nothing with it have I actually used it?

Here's something interesting. Let's play devil's advocate here for a second ... this is what the hex actually says:

The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, AND can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score.

That's the first sentence of the hex. There is a case to argue that it says: "You instantly do X AND Y" which could mean you could activate it and attack as part of the same standard action.

For everyone who wants to instantly jump in and prove me wrong, take a minute to actually think about it. A few seconds ago I agreed with you, but now I'm not so sure. It may still be wrong, but there's no point blindly trying to prove a point without considering the other side of the argument.

How do people read that sentence?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It’s a standard action to Grow it out and that’s the only thing you can do with it in that standard action, period.

Dark Archive

MrCharisma wrote:


The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, AND can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score.

That's the first sentence of the hex. There is a case to argue that it says: "You instantly do X AND Y" which could mean you could activate it and attack as part of the same standard action.

For everyone who wants to instantly jump in and prove me wrong, take a minute to actually think about it. A few seconds ago I agreed with you, but now I'm not so sure. It may still be wrong, but there's no point blindly trying to prove a point without considering the other side of the argument.

How...

I read it the same way I read polymorph spells. They (can) give you extra limbs with which you can do stuff like make natural attacks. They do not give you an extra action in which to make said attack instantly. Why? Because they do not say they do. Touch spells are an exception.
PRD" wrote:
In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.

If there was text that said it was treated as a touch spell, this exception would also apply here. If there was text that said casting the hex was a free/swift/immediate/move action, you could attack afterwards freely using the actions remaining. None of these have been said. The hex takes a standard action to cast. The hex does not state that it grants you an attack as a free action. Conclusion: the hex does not give you an attack on the round you cast it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
MrCharisma wrote:
Samy wrote:
But it seems pretty clear that the standard action includes both 1) growing the hair *AND* 2) using it as a limb, fr.ex. attacking. So you can attack in the round where you perform the standard action.
How is that clear?

Easy. Using the hex is a standard action. Using the hex is growing the hair and using it as a limb. Ergo, growing the hair and using it as a limb is a standard action.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Samy wrote:
it seems pretty clear that the standard action includes both 1) growing the hair *AND* 2) using it as a limb
It doesn't say that anywhere in the ability. You're making a non-sequitor fallacy. That's like saying "I should also gain a +2 to Trip attempts because it's an extra limb".

You wouldn't get that, because the ability doesn't say it gives that. To quote you:

Quote:
"It says what it does and it does what it says."

So when it says that the standard action is 1) growing the hair AND 2) using it as a limb, then it clearly says what it does, and it does what it says. The standard action is growing the hair AND using it as a limb.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
vhok wrote:
It’s a standard action to Grow it out and that’s the only thing you can do with it in that standard action, period.

Incorrect. It says what it does and it does what it says. The standard action is, and I quote exactly:

Quote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, AND can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb

There is no RAW justification for chopping off the part after the AND and saying that only the first half of the sentence is the standard action.


I'm just sad that prehensile hair has such versatility, even if it is limited in number of minutes worth of use per day, and my grippli Agile Tongue feat is so limited. Yes yes, I know; the tongue is a Feat, it's always around, and it DOES have some utility with 2 maneuvers, but technically I can't even pick up AND hold something with my Agile Tongue by the wording of the feat, just move something that weighs up to 5 lbs.

All I have to say witches is: be grateful for what you DO have, even if you have to wait a whole six seconds to have it!

*walks off muttering, spooling up tongue as he goes, while "rainbow connection* plays mournfully in the background*


Instantly seems to imply (IMO) that it is a non-action to activate it. If it's a standard action to activate there's nothing instant about the ability. At least, that's how I've always ruled it as a DM and this never seemed to break anything. The hex gives you limited use, while the archetype gives unlimited use.

If activating it was intended to affect your action economy then it wouldn't use the word instantly and fail to identify an action type of any sort.

If you choose to ignore the word instantly, then by RAW it takes a standard action. Afterward, you have a move and swift left to do whatever you want to with your new found limb. Including picking something up.

If you wanted to make an attack with your hair you would have to wait until the following round to do so.


Librain wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:


The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, AND can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score.

That's the first sentence of the hex. There is a case to argue that it says: "You instantly do X AND Y" which could mean you could activate it and attack as part of the same standard action.

For everyone who wants to instantly jump in and prove me wrong, take a minute to actually think about it. A few seconds ago I agreed with you, but now I'm not so sure. It may still be wrong, but there's no point blindly trying to prove a point without considering the other side of the argument.

How...

I read it the same way I read polymorph spells. They (can) give you extra limbs with which you can do stuff like make natural attacks. They do not give you an extra action in which to make said attack instantly. Why? Because they do not say they do...

I think this is the answer. There are other similar abilities with similar wording which clearly don't give you an extra action. There are fairly similar abilities which DO give you an action, but they very clearly state that they give you this extra action, which this hex doesn't do.

Having actually looked at both sides of the argument it just doesn't seem to hold up that you'd get that extra action. I still think it's a good hex though.


Samy wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Samy wrote:
But it seems pretty clear that the standard action includes both 1) growing the hair *AND* 2) using it as a limb, fr.ex. attacking. So you can attack in the round where you perform the standard action.
How is that clear?
Easy. Using the hex is a standard action. Using the hex is growing the hair and using it as a limb. Ergo, growing the hair and using it as a limb is a standard action.

It doesn't even matter if you're right. If this many people are disagreeing with your definition it's not "clear".


Yeah, the way that it *should* work is this:

Round 1 (ready... fight!)

Standard Action: Activate Prehensile Hair Hex (Hair Grows to 10 ft)

Move Action: You can use your Hair to do anything you want, including but not limited to: retrieving a stored item (like an Enchanted Moonberry-- See Swift Action below), picking up a weapon or item from the ground, loading a crossbow, sheathe a weapon or draw a sheathed weapon, or use your Hair Forklift to move a heavy item.

Swift Action: Quickened Beguiling Gift, or Rod of Abrupt Hexes + Beguiling Gift as a Spell Hex (use your Hair to deliver a Moonberry (3d6 con dmg, ingested poison) enchanted with your spell Retributive Reparations from 10ft away.

Take a 5ft step to make sure you're 15ft away from any enemies.

[AoO] If, at any point in time from now until your next turn, an enemy enters your threatened area of 10ft, you can bop them on the head with your Hair for 1d3 dmg.

=======

Btw, you have 4 limbs, but that doesn't mean you can use all of them to make attacks in the same round, unless you have a class ability like Brawler's Flurry or a feat like Multiattack. Gaining a 5th limb doesn't automatically mean you get to make an attack with it in the same action that gives it to you either. The ability to do that is not listed in any general rule, nor it is listed in the Prehensile Hair hex as a specific rule.

And based on the above hypothetical round, it's clearly useful in the same round you activate it. In the above example, you just retrived a stored item, and then handed it to an enemy 10 ft away, and caused 3d6 Con damage + fatigue to a target (possibly even Exhaust the target, if he isn't furiously trying to puke or poop it out and give it back).


Samy wrote:
vhok wrote:
It’s a standard action to Grow it out and that’s the only thing you can do with it in that standard action, period.

Incorrect. It says what it does and it does what it says. The standard action is, and I quote exactly:

Quote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, AND can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb
There is no RAW justification for chopping off the part after the AND and saying that only the first half of the sentence is the standard action.

if thats how you want to play it than thats fine, you spend a standard action every single turn to grow the hair and use it once, since your saying both things happen when you activate the ability

imo the ability to use the hair is part of the activation negates the reason why it has a duration to it, it would instead have X uses per day. the "and manipulate her hair as if it were a limb" simply tells you what you can do with the hair after it has grown out. but it is up to you to pick how you want to use it.

so you can either play it as paying a standard every turn to use the hair as a limb once or you can pay a standard once and then every turn after that you can use the hair as you wish until you run out of time, you can't have it both ways.


If you convince your DM that you're allowed to attack in the same round that you activate Prehensile Hair, just wait til you're like lvl 15 and let's say you chose to get Spell Perfection for Touch of Idiocy, and you prepare a Maximized Empowered Touch of Idiocy as a 4th level spell slot. You also got Beguiling Gift as a Spell Hex and purchased a Rod of Abrupt Hexes somewhere along the way.

Combat starts with the BBEG, so you activate Prehensile Hair and attack, causing 1d3 bludgeoning damage and deal -9 Int/Wis/Cha from Max/Emp Touch of Idiocy, and then use your Prehensile Hair to retrieve Necklace of Strangulation or Scarab of Death (a stored item) as a move action, and then use a Rod of Abrupt Hexing + Beguiling Gift Spell Hex to deliver a Necklace of Strangulation or Scarab of Death to his BBEG from 10ft away with a DC of 27-30ish to resist using whatever cursed item you just gave him, and then take a 5 ft step.

======

He's going to flip the table.

In 1 round:
1d3 bludgeon
-9 Int, Wis, & Cha (reduction in levels and amounts of spells he can cast depending on which stat the BBEG uses to cast spells, reduction of either 4 or 5 to his Will Save)
And is now either: Being Strangled + 6 dmg per round, or will certainly die in 1 round when the Scarab of Death reaches his heart


You can do plenty with Prehensile Hair in the round you activate it already. So if/when your DM says no, don't throw a fit :P


If you want to see a weird case, check out the flight hex.

Quote:
Flight (Su) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 66): The witch grows lighter as she gains power, eventually gaining the ability to fly. At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.

A standard action feather fall is nearly worthless. Is it supposed to be an immediate action? How specific does the text really need to be about the the hex no longer being a standard action?

Does the witch need to use a standard action every round she swims to get that bonus? Or is it a one time standard action to activate the hex and then they can reap the benefits forever without needing to "use" the hex as a standard action again?


Melkiador wrote:

If you want to see a weird case, check out the flight hex.

Quote:
Flight (Su) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 66): The witch grows lighter as she gains power, eventually gaining the ability to fly. At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.

A standard action feather fall is nearly worthless. Is it supposed to be an immediate action? How specific does the text really need to be about the the hex no longer being a standard action?

Does the witch need to use a standard action every round she swims to get that bonus? Or is it a one time standard action to activate the hex and then they can reap the benefits forever without needing to "use" the hex as a standard action again?

Flight is weird because it's basically 4 abilities rolled into one.

1. Feather fall is an immediate action, she can use feather fall, so it's an immediate action (this could have been written better, but it's the only way it works, so that's the way it goes).

2. Swim checks: I think this is a constant ability, not an activated one.

3. Levitate: Standard Action.

4. Fly: Standard Action to activate for one minute. Free action to maintain if you want to prolong it.

I'm not 100% sure of all that, but it's how I've always seen it done.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I've yet to see any argument based on rules that justifies why using the hair as a limb couldn't happen on the activation round. All I hear is people don't want it to be like that, but nobody's been able to actually cite any rules justification for why 1) growing hair 2) using it aren't part of the single standard action to activate.


Samy wrote:
I've yet to see any argument based on rules that justifies why using the hair as a limb couldn't happen on the activation round. All I hear is people don't want it to be like that, but nobody's been able to actually cite any rules justification for why 1) growing hair 2) using it aren't part of the single standard action to activate.

To be fair, you haven't produced a single rule that says you're able to, either.


I mean let's just go down the checklist:

A) Is there a general rule that states anything to the tune of: whenever you gain a limb from a Magical Spell, Supernatural Ability, or Extraordinary Ability that takes a Standard Action to activate, you gain an attack that round with that limb as part of activating the spell or ability.

B) Is there any specific rule in the Witch Hex section that states anything to the tune of: whenever you activate any Hex that grants you a limb or causes damage based off an attack roll, you gain an attack that round as a part of activating the Hex.

C) Is there any specific rule in the ability itself that states anything to the tune of: whenever you activate Prehensile Hair, you gain an attack that round with your Prehensile Hair.

Is there anything from any book or official online source that says anything close to either of these?

If the answer is No, then you don't get to do it. If the answer is yes, then absolutely, yes you do get to do it.

=======

Anything otherwise must be house ruled. Just to remind you, this is a Rules Forum, so RAW is god here. You can talk RAI all day til you're blue in the face, but ultimately RAW wins no matter what. If you want to talk about House Rules, there's a Homebrew forum that does exactly that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Samy wrote:
I've yet to see any argument based on rules that justifies why using the hair as a limb couldn't happen on the activation round.
To be fair, you haven't produced a single rule that says you're able to, either.

I've done so multiple times.

The rules say that activating a hex is a standard action.

The hex writeup says that activating the hex allows you to grow your hair and use it as a limb.

Ergo, a standard action allows you to grow your hair and use it as a limb.


Samy wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Samy wrote:
I've yet to see any argument based on rules that justifies why using the hair as a limb couldn't happen on the activation round.
To be fair, you haven't produced a single rule that says you're able to, either.

I've done so multiple times.

The rules say that activating a hex is a standard action.

The hex writeup says that activating the hex allows you to grow your hair and use it as a limb.

Ergo, a standard action allows you to grow your hair and use it as a limb.

Not exactly. You're chopping up the rule to misconstrue its true purpose.

This is exactly what it says:

Prehensile Hair wrote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand.

So, if you have Natural Attacks and Supernatural Abilities, and in 1 round, you perform a Move Action to move 30ft to get within melee range of an enemy, and then perform a Standard Action to activate any regular Supernatural Ability, do you still get to make all of your Natural Attacks?


Here's a better question:

If you have already activated Prehensile Hair in round 1 and now you have a natural attack, and then several rounds go by and it's now round 4... Could you: make a 30ft move action to get within 10ft of your target, then use a Standard Action to cast a Misfortune Hex on your target, and then use no action to make all your Natural Attacks as well? Do you get those Natural Attacks as free attacks every round? Or do natural attacks require a standard action?


Or rather, say you "use" the hex on round one, but don't actually manipulate the hair till round 5, then when did the count begin?

Quote:
The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments.

If you didn't manipulate the hair till round 5, then shouldn't you be able to continue manipulating it till round 15, without going into another minute?


The Prehensile Hair text isn't:

Not Prehensile Hair wrote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb.

That's not a full stop moment. You have to read the rest of it.

======

That clause has a condition, and that condition is:

Prehensile Hair wrote:
with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score

======

The rest of that paragraph tells you HOW it's activated and how it can be used in a given round by calling it a

Prehensile Hair wrote:
secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
If you have already activated Prehensile Hair in round 1 and now you have a natural attack, and then several rounds go by and it's now round 4... Could you: make a 30ft move action to get within 10ft of your target, then use a Standard Action to cast a Misfortune Hex on your target, and then use no action to make all your Natural Attacks as well?

No. Natural attacks are attacks, and those require a standard action. A bear has natural attacks, but they aren't free actions. One attack is a standard action, and multiple attacks is a full attack action.

Quote:
Do you get those Natural Attacks as free attacks every round? Or do natural attacks require a standard action?

Natural attacks require a standard action unless trumped by a more specific rule, like the prehensile hair hex.


Samy wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
If you have already activated Prehensile Hair in round 1 and now you have a natural attack, and then several rounds go by and it's now round 4... Could you: make a 30ft move action to get within 10ft of your target, then use a Standard Action to cast a Misfortune Hex on your target, and then use no action to make all your Natural Attacks as well?
No. Natural attacks are attacks, and those require a standard action. A bear has natural attacks, but they aren't free actions. One attack is a standard action, and multiple attacks is a full attack action.

Exactly. Natural Attacks are either standard actions or full attack actions. You already used your standard action to activate the hex, therefore you have no standard actions left to perform a natural attack.

Samy wrote:
Quote:
Do you get those Natural Attacks as free attacks every round? Or do natural attacks require a standard action?
Natural attacks require a standard action unless trumped by a more specific rule, like the prehensile hair hex.

No, the prehensile hair text says can be manipulated like a limb WITH your int score in lieu of your str score. The only thing it trumps is that normally you’d have to use your Str score.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Samy wrote:
Natural attacks require a standard action unless trumped by a more specific rule, like the prehensile hair hex.
No, the prehensile hair text says can be manipulated like a limb WITH your int score in lieu of your str score. The only thing it trumps is that normally you’d have to use your Str score.

That part is irrelevant to this discussion, though. The ability score doesn't matter to whether the using as a limb is part of the standard action. That's why it's important to understand that there is the word AND between the growing hair AND using it as a limb -- i.e. BOTH are part of the standard action, not just one or the other.


It is ABSOLUTELY relevant. Stop chopping up the rules trying to make up stuff that isn't there.


The Prehensile Hair text isn't:

Not Prehensile Hair wrote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb.[full stop]

That's not a full stop moment. You have to read the rest of it.

======

That clause has a condition, and that condition is:

Prehensile Hair wrote:
with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score

======

The rest of that paragraph tells you HOW it's activated and the rules for HOW it can be used in a given round by calling it a

Prehensile Hair wrote:
secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch).


"With" is a preposition, and it establishes a condition in a sentence. So you can't just stop at LIMB and be done because it suits you. I mean, if we're going to just start ignoring prepositions, why don't we start ignoring the prepositions in other hexes?

Misfortune wrote:

Misfortune (Su)

Effect: The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.

I think I'll change that last sentence to: Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again.

======

Or let's ignore a preposition in Slumber:

Slumber wrote:

Slumber (Su)

Effect: A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level.

This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.

I think I'll change it to this: If the save fails, the creature falls asleep.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
That's not a full stop moment. You have to read the rest of it. That clause has a condition, and that condition is:
Prehensile Hair wrote:
with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score

Yes, but that's not a problem at all, because that condition is always fulfilled. I have no problem using the Int score instead of the Str score, it's not a problem, so the condition is always fulfilled and thus the condition is not relevant.

I'm not insisting on not using the Int score.

Quote:

The rest of that paragraph tells you HOW it's activated and the rules for HOW it can be used in a given round by calling it a

Prehensile Hair wrote:
secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch).

Right, if you had a primary claw attack you'd take -5 to hit with the hair, but that has no relevance to the topic being discussed.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Samy wrote:

Hi, my question is about the witch hex prehensile hair. I searched a bunch of threads, but all of them were arguing about what kind of action activation is -- IMO, that's clear, activation is a standard action. However what I'm unclear on is whether the attack is included in the activation. That is to say, can you attack with the hair in the same round as you do the standard action of activation, or do you have to do standard action (activate) on round 1 and standard action (attack) on round 2, thus having a dead round for the activation.

The relevant passages are:

Quote:
Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Quote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. (...) The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments.

The way I read it, it is a standard action to use the hex, and using the hex means 'instantly causing hair to grow *AND* manipulating the hair as if it were a limb'. It does not state that the manipulation has to occur on a subsequent round.

Using the hair as if it were a limb includes the possibility of attacking with it, so the standard action includes 1) causing the hair to grow *AND* 2) using it to attack as a limb, both in one standard action.

Why is this ruling wrong, if it is?

You can use the hair to manipulate stuff the same round in which you activated the hex, if that manipulation is a move, swift or no action, you can't make an attack or standard action as the activation doesn't allow them.

After activating them, if you can make an action that gives you an attack (like casting a quickened spell with a free touch attack) you can use the hair for that attack.

1 to 50 of 52 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Prehensile hair attack in activation round? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.