Jumping into Mid-Air, Sudden Leap Feat, and such heroic deeds


Rules Discussion


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Some of this was earlier raised, but since it came up in another thread, I wanted to highlight the specific issues with aim for clarifying FAQ or Errata.

AFAIK, the way Jump spell is phrased is precedent that normal Leaps/Jumps into mid-air allow for one action taken after the Jump before beginning to fall. Jump spell finishes with "or else you fall after using your next action", which is to say NOT "you CAN take 1 action before falling" as a spell-unique mechanic would do, so it's implicitly just a "reminder" of the normal function.

Honestly, if that is the normal mechanic, it seems it should really be stated directly in the Leap/Jump/Falling rules.

Regardless, one question is how/where are any remaining actions resolved? I.e. you jump into mid-air, take 1 action (say, strike), and now fall... but have 1 action remaining. Can you spend that action from the square immediately beneath you, i.e. after falling just 5'? Can you spend it at mid-point of falling distance? Or does maximal falling distance occur before any further actions can occur? (this 2nd action could be part of multiaction activity which you started with 1st action before falling)

Another question about standard Jump rules is:
What is mechanical relevance of normal vertical Leap of 3', or CritSuccess High Jump of 8'? High Jump of 5' clearly allows Strikes to target one further square than starting position's reach. Does a leap of only 3' also allow that? Does a 8' High Jump allow targeting a further square BEYOND a 5' High Jump?

re: Sudden Leap Feat, I'm unclear on this passage:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Sudden Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase your maximum distance to double your Speed."

The DC reduction for High Jump is clear enough, but should "increase your maximum distance to double your Speed" ONLY apply to Long Jump horizontal distance? It's not really phrased to be exclusive to Long Jump, or even just horizontal distance.
It seems ridiculous to apply it to vertical distance of High Jump, but even applying same 2x Speed to High Jump horizontal distance seems bizarre since then Long Jump has no horizontal distance advantage. I feel like it's plausible for Sudden Leap to give some benefit in max distance to High Jump, just not one directly based on current text. Perhaps allow increasing High Jump horizontal distance to 1x Speed, or increasing vertical distance by 5'? (these could be moderated for lesser effect on normal Success, better on Critical)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quandary wrote:

AFAIK, the way Jump spell is phrased is precedent that normal Leaps/Jumps into mid-air allow for one action taken after the Jump before beginning to fall. Jump spell finishes with "or else you fall after using your next action", which is to say NOT "you CAN take 1 action before falling" as a spell-unique mechanic would do, so it's implicitly just a "reminder" of the normal function.

Honestly, if that is the normal mechanic, it seems it should really be stated directly in the Leap/Jump/Falling rules.

Regardless, one question is how/where are any remaining actions resolved? I.e. you jump into mid-air, take 1 action (say, strike), and now fall... but have 1 action remaining. Can you spend that action from the square immediately beneath you, i.e. after falling just 5'? Can you spend it at mid-point of falling distance? Or does maximal falling distance occur before any further actions can occur? (this 2nd action could be part of multiaction activity which you started with 1st action before falling)

I'm gonna say that if your reading jump's language being standard rules is correct (and I think it is) then you get the one action and can't use another before you hit the ground. You fall 500 feet that round, so maybe if you could get another action after like the 250 mark.

However, we know you can use a reaction because of Grab an Edge and feather fall. Reactions are supposed to be quicker than actions, I reckon, so that makes sense.

Quote:

Another question about standard Jump rules is:

What is mechanical relevance of normal vertical Leap of 3', or CritSuccess High Jump of 8'? High Jump of 5' clearly allows Strikes to target one further square than starting position's reach. Does a leap of only 3' also allow that? Does a 8' High Jump allow targeting a further square BEYOND a 5' High Jump?

Dunno.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There's no real rules governing how falling during your turn works, outside knowing that you fall 500 feet in a round.

If you can take an action at any point during your fall, that means if you jump up to the same height as your target you could strike them once, fall five feet, then strike them again. That's kind of weird.

But I think forcing someone to wait until they fall the full distance before they can finish their turn is equally weird and shuts off what feels like should be some obvious things you can do. Jumping down off a cliff and striking an enemy on the way down is pretty much the same concept as the above, but would be impossible here. Or something like a dancing leaf monk sliding halfway down a wall before leaping off. These feel like things that shouldn't be nos as a matter of course.

Again, there's no real RAW guidance right now so I'm inclined to read it permissively and let the player spend their remaining actions at any point during the movement, since there's nothing that strongly suggests otherwise.


Yeah, the distance you fall ON YOUR TURN (as opposed to full round) is probably worth clarifying in it's own right. Within paradigm of sequential turns within round, it probably should be less than full 500'/round, maybe substantially less.

Of course, when/where you can take remaining actions while falling like this (you could even potentially have multiple actions remaining) is distinct question.

I'm not so worried about multiple (usually = max 2) attacks after jumping, because jumping to their same level (i.e. 1 square higher than necessary to threaten diagonally) seems reasonable to be superior to only being able to jump to square below them. (You're also potentially provoking AoO by falling from their Reach?) High Jumping even 5' is generally very hard (both in DC and action cost outside of Sudden Leap (and even that impedes non-standard attacks), and I'm not even sure if 8' (Critical) Sudden Leap Jump actually reaches further square than 5'. If somebody is hasted and can Leap / Strike / Leap / Strike (or Sudden Leap 1x Attack / Sudden Leap 1x Attack) I'm not concerned either, although I don't think that was issue you were raising.

Incidentally, in earlier editions I was inclined to rule you DIDN'T fall until just before your next turn. So other characters with Init delay could attack you / help you / etc JUST BEFORE YOU FALL, since init sequentiality is really a cludge and everything should be NEARLY simultaneous anyways. That also prevented characters from 'exploiting' free movement from falling, i.e. 5' stepping away from one enemy, falling 15' and full attacking a different enemy now in reach. In order to move to threaten new enemy (ON THAT TURN) they would need to spend Move Action jumping down. They could Full Attack the 1st enemy and 5' step off edge, and would fall below by next turn, but 1st enemy could still attack them in the mean time. Any ways, that digression isn't super helpful re: 2nd Edition, but maybe does show the impact of falling movement and how system chooses to handle it.


These are good points.

I think how I’m going to run it in the meantime is the player has the choice to use their second action at any point during the fall, and by third action the fall is complete (all 500 ft).

This allows use before you fall or right when you land and anywhere in between but it’s limited to the action as soon as you qualify as “falling”.

Wonder what developer intent is or if there is one.


The Leap action says that you end it on an elevated platform or at the end of your leap. So, per strict RAW, you can't do anything before landing (or only reactions).
For RAI, I don't have an opinion, but the wording of Sudden Leap tend to show it's also RAI.

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