Does Wall Run let you run DOWN walls?


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I know a GM that seems to be under the impression that any attempt to run in a downward or lateral direction when using Wall Run would cause you to fall. He cites that it only mentions being able to run up, not down or even across.

Is he right?

Seems to me that "traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground" and "Wall Run lets you run along..." heavily imply non-upwards movement as being possible too.

What do you think?


100% RAW? no. It specifically says "During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed." This means any movement that isn't up isn't allowed. It'd need to be worded 'During this movement, you can travel on a vertical surfaces at your full Speed' or something like that.

That said, I don't think it'd be a tough sell to get a houserule to allow it. I don't think it breaks anything if you can run down or along a wall.


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Since Wall Run has you fall if you don't end your stride on a surface perpendicular to gravity, wall run has to let you run both up and down and sideways on the wall.

If you could only go up, you would fall every time you used the ability unless there's a ledge to grab.

The first line of the feat being "You defy gravity, traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground" seems to clearly indicate RAI.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Since Wall Run has you fall if you don't end your stride on a surface perpendicular to gravity, wall run has to let you run both up and down and sideways on the wall.

You can use your movement on vertical and horizontal surfaces, so you can end up at the top of a wall/cliff just by going up. [floor, up wall, upper floor] so the fall doesn't factor into it.

"You must start your movement on a horizontal surface. During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed." Nothing prevents horizontal movement, it just lets you move up a surface too.


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For my part, I would allow upward and horizontal movement with Wall Run, but the moment you begin running "down" a vertical wall that basically becomes "falling". The idea being that you are fighting gravity in either of the first two cases, but going with gravity in the last. Much harder to control your movement when big G is trying to pulp you.


I think you dancing leaf is good for this.


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The more I delve into the monk class the more I realize they cant really do anything for all the red tape.

I sure hope you're wrong, Graystone.


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You have to turn them on, Morty! The shoes have to be turned on!


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I dont think it's fair to say monks cant do anything. A monk with cat fall does running off a building just fine.


Ravingdork wrote:

The more I delve into the monk class the more I realize they cant really do anything for all the red tape.

I sure hope you're wrong, Graystone.

I know your pain: try making a thrown build that uses a stance... :P Unless you hold a sling [or other ranged only weapon] in your off hand, you drop out of your ranged stance once you throw as you're no longer wielding a ranged weapon. Or that you're better off raising your medicine over craft for an alchemist for their Chirugeon ability as well as needing to pick up healers tools to use... There is 'red tape' all over the place but then there are places with NO tape, like a range on seedpods [or how to calculate it's damage] or monsters not listing long/tall so you can figure out reach. At least with red tape you know what you're dealing with going in.

Malk_Content wrote:
I dont think it's fair to say monks cant do anything. A monk with cat fall does running off a building just fine.

Yep, that works nicely. It's not really a monk solution though as anyone can take it. With all the cool movement abilities of the monk, they might not think that something as easy as going down a wall requires a separate general feat when you can run up it like spiderman so it's easy to understand the frustration.


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Malk_Content wrote:
I dont think it's fair to say monks cant do anything. A monk with cat fall does running off a building just fine.

At 8th-level, after 7 levels of red tape, just to run up and down a wall while others have been flying for the last 3 levels.

Let's face it, the red tape lowers the monks tier rather significantly.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
I dont think it's fair to say monks cant do anything. A monk with cat fall does running off a building just fine.

At 8th-level, after 7 levels of red tape, just to run up and down a wall while others have been flying for the last 3 levels.

Let's face it, the red tape lowers the monks tier rather significantly.

There's a lot wrong with this sentiment.

1) Fly is now 4th level, so people have only been doing it for one level.
2) Fly uses a spell slot, your highest slot when you get it and wall run. Wall Run is at will.
3) Fly costs you two actions to use. Wall Run doesn't cost anything really, so you can run up to someone, flurry them, and then reatreat up a wall all in one go.
4) Wall Run is actually faster for going up vertical surfaces due to difficult terrain rules.
5) There are a lot of ways to ignore falling damage so you rarely actually need to run down a wall. Dancing Leaf is the easiest option, available at 4th, but if you don't want to spend a class feat you can use Catfall or Bouncy Goblin or even potentially just Grab an Edge. Wall Run does have some issues with how it interacts with some other feats, but this isn't one of them.
6) Wall Run's issues, where they are exist, are pretty easy to house rule.
7) The monk's tier is just fine. They have superb defenses, mobility, battlfield control options that make casters jealous, ki spells which provide all sorts of versaility, and more. As someone who has watched multiple monks kick all kinds of ass at all kinds of level, trust me on this.
8) A lot of advantages may not be obvious on paper but really shine during actual play. See one of the Paizo team talking about how the monk's realtive DPR improves whenever the other characters need to move multiple times to the monk moving once. Or how much better Metal Strikes is this edition, because weapon enchancements no longer automatically overcome cold iron/silver/adamantine DR and weaknesses mean your monk hits demons, fey, and devils for 10 more damage per hit with no investment.


graystone wrote:
I know your pain: try making a thrown build that uses a stance... :P Unless you hold a sling [or other ranged only weapon] in your off hand, you drop out of your ranged stance once you throw as you're no longer wielding a ranged weapon.

Not to completely hijack the question (okay, to completely hijack the question), how would that work with the level 3 returning Rune? The rules for wielding definitely specify you have to be holding it in the required number of hands to be using it, and that you have to be ready[i] to use it, not just carrying it or possessing it on your person, so I can see how that would generally prohibit most throw weapons, but a [i]returning weapon "flies back to your hand after the Strike is complete". This happens in the space between your Strike action ending an anything that happens after it, you don't need to do anything special to ensure your weapon is back in our hands ready to use, and you're capable of using all three actions in a turn without additional feats or equipment to attack with, say, a returning javelin. It seems clear enough, at least by RAI, that - for the duration the weapon is in the air - the "number of hands required to wield it effectively" is zero and you are always "ready to use it" because you can Strike again immediately after (unlike a traditional thrown weapon, where you must technically switch to another iteration of the same class of thrown weapon, which you are not "ready to use" as it is stored on our person).

As a GM, I'd allow that, at least.

Of course, if you have a hand free to hold a sling, you could arguably just have a second thrown weapon "cued up" instead - we see that in media a lot, where thrown weapon characters are already reaching for/already have a second weapon ready to throw as the first is leaving their hands. Of course, it does shuffle the action economy a bit (assuming you begin your turn with one thrown weapon in hand, it's "Draw Throw Draw" instead of "Throw Draw Throw"), assumes you're ambidextrous (although so does holding a sling in off hand), and uses up your free hand just the same as holding a sling. :P

Also, are thrown melee weapons considered ranged weapons for the purpose of these stances, or do they only become thrown weapons when you choose to throw them? A javelin is always a ranged weapon, but a dagger or spear or light hammer is technically a melee weapon with the thrown property? The real red tape here seems to be that melee weapons with the thrown trait don't become ranged weapons, but can be used to make a ranged attack. The description of the thrown property still seems to delineate melee weapons vs ranged weapons (melee weapons with the thrown trait specify a range in the trait whereas ranged weapons with the thrown trait use the range as listed in the profile, etc.)

Either way, still red tape.

Regarding Wall Run (look, we're back on topic... sorry!), I think a case can be made for running laterally. Maybe RAW, and definitely RAI. RAW-wise, its interaction with Water Step tells you there are additional surfaces you can "run along" (not just up). RAI, I'd definitely allow it, because the wording is vague enough and it seems inspired by wire-fu and acrobatics games like Prince of Persia, where the horizontal wall run is a big part of the maneuvering and also referred to as a "wall run." In case a (questionably) strenuous argument needs to be made, you can say it never specifies straight up, and the arcing nature of a horizontal wall-run indicates you're running diagonally up for half of it and falling < 5 ft while accounting for forward momentum in the last half, though that might bring into question the Long Jump rules, so...


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PossibleCabbage wrote:


The first line of the feat being "You defy gravity, traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground" seems to clearly indicate RAI.

It's in the feat, that makes it RAW. That's what the feat does.

Now, some might then wonder what happens if one goes up, is one slowed down like with flying? To which the line about being able to run up at your normal speed becomes important. It's simply further clarification. It doesn't contradict the first line.


Curgyr wrote:
Not to completely hijack the question (okay, to completely hijack the question), how would that work with the level 3 returning Rune?

Return fixes the issue: it's just a pain until then and will be a bigger issue if they come out with Automatic Bonus Progression like PF1 in the gamemastery Guide where you can actually play the game without magic items.

As to "second thrown weapon "cued up"" it's a waste of bulk and/or coin as you'll always have one weapon unused and un-thrown: all it does is get you through a single extra action before you drop out of the stance if you ever throw that "cued up" weapon. The only game is it 'looks' better.


graystone wrote:
As to "second thrown weapon "cued up"" it's a waste of bulk and/or coin as you'll always have one weapon unused and un-thrown: all it does is get you through a single extra action before you drop out of the stance if you ever throw that "cued up" weapon. The only game is it 'looks' better.

Oh, I forgot other groups actually use Bulk like you're supposed to. :|

Our table is lazy, and we very much don't use Bulk. I don't, uh... trust my players to track it or its effects on their character correctly, and I really don't want to do it for them. So yeah, that's a waste of bulk. In my head, you're carrying around, like, 6 daggers in the way of throwing-knife-wielding characters in other fiction and you just save your last one for the end of the fight before going and pulling them out of all the dead bodies you (hopefully) created. Carrying around a bunch of daggers isn't really realistic in this system though, is it?

Whooops.


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I feel like the simplest (and most correct) way to adjudicate Wall Run is "for the duration of one stride action, and as long as your feet are making contact with something, you can ignore gravity." Or "gravity rotates to be convenient for you, up to 90 degrees" if you really don't want people running on the ceiling.

Making "using the ability" require either falling or being able to reach a higher ledge makes it far too narrow and is inconsistent with the popular media depictions of "wall running" that the ability is borrowing from.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:


Making "using the ability" require either falling or being able to reach a higher ledge makes it far too narrow and is inconsistent with the popular media depictions of "wall running" that the ability is borrowing from.

I wholeheartedly agree.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like the simplest (and most correct) way to adjudicate Wall Run is "for the duration of one stride action, and as long as your feet are making contact with something, you can ignore gravity." Or "gravity rotates to be convenient for you, up to 90 degrees" if you really don't want people running on the ceiling.

Neither of those really work: anti-grav means you don't need the wall as you can free-float and could be used to make horizontal leaps/jumps. Rotated planes of gravity prevents horizontal which makes you fall at the start of the move as you must start on a horizontal area. It would really suck if you stepped on a window and fell horizontally into an interior wall.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Making "using the ability" require either falling or being able to reach a higher ledge makes it far too narrow and is inconsistent with the popular media depictions of "wall running" that the ability is borrowing from.

I don't think so: plenty of wall running involves bouncing off pipes, fire escapes, ect, parkour style, as they go up a wall and each one of those can be that higher surface [just make that balance check] Running across a wall is much less prominent that running up a wall from what I've seen.


I've seen plenty of the run towards group and then up the wall at an angle and back down behind them examples for it not to seem odd to me in the least.


Yeah I'd say one of the most common versions of wall running you see in a lot of modern fiction is a character leaping onto a wall, running horizontally for a short distance, then leaping off.

Luckily Wall Run lets you do that so not really an issue.

For downward movement, I'd point to Dancing Leaf, which basically just lets you ignore fall damage when you're next to a wall. But that has its own problems since it's whether or not you can interrupt a fall is 'ask your GM' territory.


I mean I guess I have just watched so much of things like The Flash that even running straight down a wall doesn't throw me for a loop.


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Talonhawke wrote:
I mean I guess I have just watched so much of things like The Flash that even running straight down a wall doesn't throw me for a loop.

Monks don't have the speedforce... :P

I'm thinking more of parkour:

In a vertical wallrun, the traceur runs straight up the wall.
parkour
Run towards the wall with strides a little longer than usual but not too long, not too slow nor too fast.
When near the wall, take a small jump and plant the balls of your feet slightly higher than hip level. Lean back.
Bend the knee of the leg that is on the wall, and push off with the other leg. Bring your chest close to the wall, and at the same time push off with the leg that is on the wall.
Once you begin to kick off the wall, bring your other knee up towards your body, increasing your center of gravity and thus transforming your momentum up the wall. Reach upwards. If preformed correctly, it should transfer your horizontal momentum into vertical momentum.
Grab the top of the wall, and preform a climb up.

Tic tac or horizontal wall run is a different, but related, technique.


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I still think using the fact that the feat says "run up" means you can only go straight up is as bad as reading sleeper holds "target’s nervous system" to mean that it only works on enemies with nervous systems not just enemies that can be knocked unconscious, or Wolf trip using the term "feet" to mean only enemies with feet can be affected.


Rolling checks to jump or balance or fall every time someone wants to use wall run to get around a pit by running on the wall of the dungeon is just going to make the thing play slower too.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rolling checks to jump or balance or fall every time someone wants to use wall run to get around a pit by running on the wall of the dungeon is just going to make the thing play slower too.

You complained 'but what if there isn't an upper floor!!!", so I gave another option and now you're 'But I might have to make a roll!!!"... :P I'm not sure I can take this seriously: not every situation is going to be ideal in a "dungeon". NOTHING in requiring upward movement harms the ability in the least: full movement up a wall [without the need for free hands] and being able to freely change between horizontal and vertical surfaces with the monks improved speed is quite impressive as-is without being able to move down or side to side.

As to 'what about a pit?', how about just jump it? Abundant Step? Wind Jump? I don't see an issue with needing rolls: they have to make FAR less than someone else climbing and they have options that don't require them. Not seeing the issue. IMO, as written wall run isn't something for getting around a pit anyway but getting up a wall/cliff.

Talonhawke wrote:
I still think using the fact that the feat says "run up" means you can only go straight up is as bad as reading sleeper holds "target’s nervous system" to mean that it only works on enemies with nervous systems not just enemies that can be knocked unconscious, or Wolf trip using the term "feet" to mean only enemies with feet can be affected.

It's quite easy to word it 'along' or 'on' instead of "up" if that was the intent.

Sleeper hold: this has a target section that clearly indicates what is affected: creatures. Even a golem is a target. "nervous system" doesn't override the requirements.

Wolf trip: I think you mean wolf drag... You could argue that but it'd be like PossibleCabbage arguing that the fluff sentence before it gets into rules overrides those rules. "During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed" is CLEARLY rules text and not fluff: it informs you how far you move. "You rip your enemy off their feet" informs you of nothing as 'feet' isn't a rule or in any rule that I know [other than measurements]: if you know of any rules that involve a creatures feet, please post it.


graystone wrote:
As to 'what about a pit?', how about just jump it? Abundant Step? Wind Jump? I don't see an issue with needing rolls: they have to make FAR less than someone else climbing and they have options that don't require them. Not seeing the issue. IMO, as written wall run isn't something for getting around a pit anyway but getting up a wall/cliff.

Wind jump? Costs ki.

Abundant step? Costs ki.
Jumping? Requires a roll.

As a 10th level monk, too, your *bonus* from Incredible Movement is probably further than you can jump. So "run along the wall to get across the pit" is a 100% valid way to get across the pit that requires no resource expenditure and no rolls.

You're clearly trying to see this as a parkour ability, when context should clearly establish it as a wuxia thing.

Horizon Hunters

So looking at the full text

"You defy gravity, traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground. Stride up to your Speed. You must start your movement on a horizontal surface. During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed. If you end the Stride off the ground, you fall after taking your next action or when your turn ends, whichever comes first (though you can Grab an Edge, if applicable). If you have Water Step or a similar ability, Wall Run lets you run along flimsy vertical surfaces, as well as vertical liquids, such as a waterfall."

This may be bending the rules or overthinking things but if you run straight up a wall, and you still have an action to use before you start to fall, could you not reorient yourself and take another stride (or wall run stride) to now run horizontally along the same wall?


Goldryno wrote:

So looking at the full text

"You defy gravity, traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground. Stride up to your Speed. You must start your movement on a horizontal surface. During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed. If you end the Stride off the ground, you fall after taking your next action or when your turn ends, whichever comes first (though you can Grab an Edge, if applicable). If you have Water Step or a similar ability, Wall Run lets you run along flimsy vertical surfaces, as well as vertical liquids, such as a waterfall."

This may be bending the rules or overthinking things but if you run straight up a wall, and you still have an action to use before you start to fall, could you not reorient yourself and take another stride (or wall run stride) to now run horizontally along the same wall?

Graystone's argument is that you can only use this to ascend to a higher elevation full stop. Not that you can only go one direction at a time.


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Goldryno wrote:

So looking at the full text

"You defy gravity, traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground. Stride up to your Speed. You must start your movement on a horizontal surface. During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed. If you end the Stride off the ground, you fall after taking your next action or when your turn ends, whichever comes first (though you can Grab an Edge, if applicable). If you have Water Step or a similar ability, Wall Run lets you run along flimsy vertical surfaces, as well as vertical liquids, such as a waterfall."

This may be bending the rules or overthinking things but if you run straight up a wall, and you still have an action to use before you start to fall, could you not reorient yourself and take another stride (or wall run stride) to now run horizontally along the same wall?

I assumed you could wall run twice, or jump off to reach an opposing ledge, or something similar before falling.

I like the idea of running across a castle's battlements, changing orientation so that I'm then running on the sides of the battlement exterior in order to safely pass the enemy, then Rapid Mantel or jump to get back atop the battlements behind them.

Some interpretations clearly don't allow for this.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Wind jump? Costs ki.

Abundant step? Costs ki.
Jumping? Requires a roll.

You're missing the point: the monk has a lot of movement options in their toolbox. Just because ONE ability doesn't do exactly what you want, there are other ways to get what you want. If you hate rolls, spend a KI point. If you don't want multiple rolls, Jump and make one.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
As a 10th level monk, too, your *bonus* from Incredible Movement is probably further than you can jump. So "run along the wall to get across the pit" is a 100% valid way to get across the pit that requires no resource expenditure and no rolls.

If the power worked that way, that'd be great: it doesn't. If roll = bad for you, maybe take Assurance and/or Wall Jump so you get 2 jumps worth of non-rolls to make the distance. Or if you REALLY hate rolls, Cat Fall down into the pit, walk to the other side and wall run up: no rolls.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
You're clearly trying to see this as a parkour ability, when context should clearly establish it as a wuxia thing.

You have that in the wrong order: I read the ability, saw what it did and determined from that the closest thing was parkour and not wuxia: IMO, Ki powers tend to cover most wuxia powers. The power is LITERALLY running UP a wall: full stop. Nothing in it supports non-upward movement, no matter wuxia or parkour. The thing is, parkour has a move that allows running on a wall sideways so it's not even a matter of one or the other but a matter of the wording.


Ravingdork wrote:
I assumed you could wall run twice, or jump off to reach an opposing ledge, or something similar before falling.

"you fall after taking your next action". So you can wall run twice [and fall]. You can also jump, as you have an action before falling: just make sure wall run isn't the last action as the end of the turn also causes a fall. The thing you can't do is move sideways.

PS: technically no matter what your second action is, you fall after it, but it doesn't matter if you're 5' or less off the ground so make sure the second action end up with you on a surface you can stand on.


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The monk has lots of Wuxia stuff that is not ki powers- Rain of Embers Stance, Dancing Leaf, Stunning Fist, Dragon Roar, Tiger Slash, Water Step, Mountain Quake, etc.

"Parkour" is stuff that can be done by any class with athletics or acrobatics feats. The monk is the Wuxia class.

Horizon Hunters

Ravingdork wrote:

I assumed you could wall run twice, or jump off to reach an opposing ledge, or something similar before falling.

I like the idea of running across a castle's battlements, changing orientation so that I'm then running on the sides of the battlement exterior in order to safely pass the enemy, then Rapid Mantel or jump to get back atop the battlements behind them.

Some interpretations clearly don't allow for this.

OK reading some different opinions and you would also think "traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground" would also cover running along the wall or at least taking a diagonal angle. The wording seems (to me) to imply more than one direction of straight up is possible. The definition of the word transverse that seems most appropriate is "to move back and forth or from side to side" I am also seeing a definition in Websters of "to ascend, descend, or cross (a slope or gap) at an angle"

Also the "If you have Water Step or a similar ability, Wall Run lets you run along flimsy vertical surfaces, as well as vertical liquids, such as a waterfall" part is weird if you could run along water but not solid surfaces.

But then the Wall Run text states "During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed"

Totally see where the ball is in the GM's court on this one but I personally would not interpret this as only upward movement is possible.


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Not sure I agree with graystone's assessment. Reading "you can run up vertical surfaces" as "you can only run vertically up" is a bit of a stretch to me and nothing else in the rules text really spells out or implies such a limitation.

To put it another way, if the rules were intended to only allow movement in one direction, they do an awfully bad job spelling it out with any explicity.

Instead the only restrictions it spells out directly are that you must start on a horizontal flat surface (so no chain wall runs) and that you fall if you end your turn without returning to a flat surface.


I would be careful allowing diagonal wall running. Don't forget that every 2nd 5 foot square is 10 feet on the standard ground. You would in theory have to apply this to diagonal wall running as well. Though that would only matter if you were attempting to use the feat in encounter mode on a map, and that has it's own subset of head scratching moments to consider.


Squiggit wrote:
Not sure I agree with graystone's assessment. Reading "you can run up vertical surfaces" as "you can only run vertically up" is a bit of a stretch to me and nothing else in the rules text really spells out or implies such a limitation.

I'm not sure how to take the word "up" as anything other that upward movement. As I mentioned above, if it means sideways movement it's very poor wording as it can say 'along' or 'on' instead of "up". With such much easier ways to convey sideways movement, the stretch to me is allowing sideways movement. Or to quote you "To put it another way, if the rules were intended to [snip] allow movement in [all] direction[s], they do an awfully bad job spelling it out with any explicity."

"the only restrictions it spells out directly": up is pretty direct as up and down are pretty clear directions. If something said 'you can knock a foe 10' straight up', would you assume you can punch them 10' horizontally or 10' into the ground? Up is up.

"you fall if you end your turn without returning to a flat surface.": not quite: "you fall after taking your next action"


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graystone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I assumed you could wall run twice, or jump off to reach an opposing ledge, or something similar before falling.

"you fall after taking your next action". So you can wall run twice [and fall]. You can also jump, as you have an action before falling: just make sure wall run isn't the last action as the end of the turn also causes a fall. The thing you can't do is move sideways.

PS: technically no matter what your second action is, you fall after it, but it doesn't matter if you're 5' or less off the ground so make sure the second action end up with you on a surface you can stand on.

My elf monk has a 50 foot speed, so I'd just double wall run up that 100 foot wall or tree and then Rapid Mantel onto the top of the wall or tree limb. :D (That is, assuming the movement wasn't enough to get me to the top on its own and I even need to Grab an Edge.)

beowulf99 wrote:
I would be careful allowing diagonal wall running. Don't forget that every 2nd 5 foot square is 10 feet on the standard ground. You would in theory have to apply this to diagonal wall running as well. Though that would only matter if you were attempting to use the feat in encounter mode on a map, and that has it's own subset of head scratching moments to consider.

Oh it's fine. When I say I ran up the wall at a diagonal arc, I don't mean more than 5 feet. On the grid it looks like a straight line, even though it's actually a shallow arc across a side wall. ;)


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graystone wrote:
I'm not sure how to take the word "up" as anything other that upward movement. As I mentioned above, if it means sideways movement it's very poor wording as it can say 'along' or 'on' instead of "up".

I mean, it's obvious that up means up. I'm less convinced that up means "exclusively and only in the vertical direction." Plus it does say along, in another section. It also says you can move on vertical surfaces as easily as on the ground and defines no limitations on horizontal movement.

Given that, I feel like the ability works fine with movements that are largely horizontal in nature. I mean if you want to be pedantic simply the act of moving onto the wall to run along it is going to move you up a few inches at least and satisfy that requirement.

Quote:
If something said 'you can knock a foe 10' straight up'

If it said 'straight up' it'd be pretty clear, but it doesn't.


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Sure, and even 1' of vertical movement can fulfill that nominal requirement while moving 100' horizontally, within same horizontal "row" of 5' squares. Really the only possible restriction I could see is against "running" DOWN either straight or diagonally. Although I wouldn't even enforce that myself, given broader text of the Feat.


Ravingdork wrote:
My elf monk has a 50 foot speed, so I'd just double wall run up that 100 foot wall or tree and then Rapid Mantel onto the top of the wall or tree limb. :D (That is, assuming the movement wasn't enough to get me to the top on its own and I even need to Grab an Edge.)

What I forgot is that you have to start on horizontal surface, so at 50' you'd have to find something to stand on. Other than that, you're good.

Squiggit wrote:
graystone wrote:
I'm not sure how to take the word "up" as anything other that upward movement. As I mentioned above, if it means sideways movement it's very poor wording as it can say 'along' or 'on' instead of "up".
I mean, it's obvious that up means up. I'm less convinced that up means "exclusively and only in the vertical direction." Plus it does say along, in another section. It also says you can move on vertical surfaces as easily as on the ground and defines no limitations on horizontal movement.

"You defy gravity, traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground.": this works just fine with either reading: either up or adding sideways. IMO, it more talking about speed and no difficult ground than which way you can move if it means anything at all.

PS: I also don't really see that as a true rule sentence. Most feats/ability have a 'fluff' description as their first one: I put it with the old elephant stomp feat that neither needed an elephant or a stomp.

"along": this only comes up with the combined Water Step+Wall Run so even if along allowed it, it'd only be when you have both abilities.

"It also says you can move on vertical surfaces as easily as on the ground and defines no limitations on horizontal movement.": but it does by saying "up" in a later sentence. It's not out of line to see limitations mentioned in different sentences after all. For instance, Impassable Wall Stance's first sentence is "You refuse to let foes past your guard." It doesn't impact the feat at all: it's just a nice bit of fluff not impacting the rules.


WAIT... YOU *DON'T* NEED AN ELEPHANT!?!?!?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Can't wait until I have Water Step and Wall Run so that I can run on the rain drops during a storm battle.

graystone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
My elf monk has a 50 foot speed, so I'd just double wall run up that 100 foot wall or tree and then Rapid Mantel onto the top of the wall or tree limb. :D (That is, assuming the movement wasn't enough to get me to the top on its own and I even need to Grab an Edge.)
What I forgot is that you have to start on horizontal surface, so at 50' you'd have to find something to stand on. Other than that, you're good.

But it is horizontal...from my perspective. XD

Forgot about that part. Suppose I'll just have to jump up off the wall at 50 feet then jump up the wall again with Wall Jump the Grab an Edge if anything is available.

Quandary wrote:
WAIT... YOU *DON'T* NEED AN ELEPHANT!?!?!?

Everybody needs an elephant.


I would hate it if it was changed to having free movement on vertical planes but that is more of an issue I have with gonzo play.

As is I will allow the move as long as there is some form of upward movement in the run including diagonals.

I won't be allowing a monk to:
- Take two strides and zigzag all around while doing a loop on a wall.
- Run down a wall from up top (to avoid fall damage).
= just run horizontally without any vertical movement in the stride

As far as I am concerned the running in an arch element while not represented by the rules mechanically is easily visualized and supported in function because you can get the same effect easily.

Don't take this as a "you are wrong for wanting this" argument, more throwing my values into the mix.
I am not a rule of cool GM and much prefer extreme feats of power to be counterbalanced with some sort of restriction or limitation as I feel people tend to be more creative when using them and feel happier when their plans pay off.


Okay, I just feel if Monk wants to avoid falling damage next to wall, they have Dancing Leaf and Abundant Step which are both lower level, the first significantly so, so allowing it with this higher level Feat isn't some unique transgression that undermines the game. Dancing Leaf is also more capable at that task, since it only requires one action to step off edge (or even zero additional action if within allowed distance of earlier Stride, or Shoved, etc) and can fall an unlimited distance damage-free... while Wall Run is limited to move speed distance before falling (although ability to chain multiple Wall Runs without immediately falling after 2nd seems ambiguously plausible, that would use even more actions).

Not that big of a deal either way IMHO, but I'd rather just not enforce one more fiddly restriction if it's not clear from RAW, and doesn't inherently make game more awesome... And if I'm inclined to ban running down walls for specific game tone/theme reasons, I'm probably going to ban running up walls too. YMMV


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm not planning on taking either Dancing Leaf or Abundant Step.


I honestly don't see why running down a wall is so out of the question when you have ppl running up waterfalls and certins and freaking raindrops. It says

"You defy gravity, traversing vertical planes as easily as the ground. Stride up to your Speed. You must start your movement on a horizontal surface. FULL STOP

Then to clarify it adds:

"During this movement, you can run up vertical surfaces, like walls, at your full Speed" FULL STOP

Again it adds the limitation:

"If you end the Stride off the ground, you fall after taking your next action or when your turn ends, whichever comes first (though you can Grab an Edge, if applicable)" FULL STOP

Then adds extras:

If you have Water Step or a similar ability, Wall Run lets you run along flimsy vertical surfaces, as well as vertical liquids, such as a waterfall."

I see no reason you can't run down a wall.


Timeshadow wrote:
I see no reason you can't run down a wall.

You acknowledge "Again it adds the limitation" then don't take it into account? If you remove the "up" part, it's not a limitation: you'e allowing unbounded movement direction. Allowing vertical movement itself isn't a limitation on Stride but a bonus so the only limitation is "up". As written, nothing stops you from taking your full Stride on a horizontal surface so vertical movement is the bonus/plus.

Ravingdork/Quandary wrote:
Dancing Leaf, Abundant Step.

Those abilities, and other, that specifically allow safe downward or sideways movement is one of the reasons I'm inclined to read this strictly: it'd pretty much cover various other feats in addition to allowing ignoring climbing for a stride. IMO, it'd be an at will 1 action spider climb at that point but better as you don't have to make athletic checks based of climbing difficulty [climb speed may require rolls "to Climb extremely difficult surfaces"]. With any kind of handholds you can balance on, you could have unlimited spider climb. So IMO, it's plenty powerful with just "up" movement. That and I'd worry that people would be retraining out of a few other feats once you get it [if read any vertical] as it could cover several other feats that way.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't get the arguments about gravity. Some people are acting like it only works on you when you're going down. Gravity is ALWAYS working on you. It's affecting you is not dependent on the actions you happen to be taking.


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It should be pretty clear that Dancing Leaf and Abundant Step do things that Wall Run was never intended to do, so that having some overlap between the abilities is irrelevant.

Dancing Leaf is handy if you fall off a cliff. Abundant Step is literally teleporting so you can pass physical objects if you need to.

The biggest restriction on Wall Run is "you have to start the action with your feet flat on the ground" and "you have to be able to run there" so it's no use when you're falling and no use when there's not a way to run to where you're going.

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