Elemental Ascetic Kineticist Kinetic Fist - Help plz


Rules Questions


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Let's kick this off by saying THIS IS NOT A PFS GAME! It is a house game that has made a few changes to base Pathfinder rules, but generally is sticking pretty close to the normal Pathfinder rules for most mechanics present.

With that out of the way, my question is this: Substance infusions (namely Vampiric and Enervating in specific among others), how do they interact with Kinetic Fist given that you can full attack with it? (And I plan on heavily full attacking with elemental flurry at every opportunity)Do they apply to the first hit? Every hit? The text is unclear and I would like answers.

A possibly easier question as a bonus for the rules lawyers out there to clarify: Does the Conductive special weapon ability benefit the Elemental Ascetic (if placed on handwraps) or interact with Kinetic Fist at all?

Any help is greatly appreciated! :)


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Edit: I found more information and the question of the Conductive property no longer applies.

My current questions are as follows:
1) Substance infusions (namely Vampiric and Enervating in specific among others), how do they interact with Kinetic Fist given that you can full attack with it? Do they apply to the first hit? Every hit? The text is unclear and I would like answers.

2) The kinetic fist wild talent states that its damage ignores spell resistance. How does this interact with other substance infusion wild talents? If they are applied to a kinetic fist attack, do they ignore spell resistance as well?
i.e. If I throw a burning infused kinetic fist at a target with spell resistance, do I need to roll against their SR to determine if they're affected by the burning infusion part of the attack?

Once again, any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!


I don't think it's ever stated directly, but every application of a blast carries the substance infusion. The best evidence I found was Flurry of Blasts.

Flurry of Blasts wrote:
If you are using a substance infusion that requires a saving throw, a target attempts its save only once (even if it was hit multiple times), but it takes a penalty on the save equal to the number of times it was hit beyond the first. If you are using a substance infusion that requires a caster level check or combat maneuver check, you roll the check only once against each target, but you gain a bonus on the check equal to the number of times that target was hit beyond the first.

This text wouldn't make any sense if every "hit" of an infused kinetic blast didn't apply the substance infusion.

There's no evidence that infusions would have to consider spell resistance. Infusions aren't really their own things, but just modifications of the blast. If the blast ignores spell resistance, then the infusion should too.

For some unrelated advice, the elemental ascetic can still use some other form infusions, if those infusions don't require an attack roll and aren't on a short list. So, you should consider picking up the spindle form infusion for a ranged option.

Quote:
He can’t use his kinetic blast without a form infusion, nor can he ever use his kinetic blast with the chain, extended range, extreme range, foe throw, flurry of blasts, many throw, or snake form infusions, or with any other form infusion that requires a ranged attack roll or ranged touch attack roll.


I do believe substance infusions work as you state on every attack, looking at how flurry of blasts is worded. My primary thing I want cleared up is HOW they behave on each hit? Does the effect apply on every hit, or does it operate like flurry of blasts and give a cumulative penalty with each hit after the first? Or does it maybe only apply once on the first hit. In terms of a mechanical build, exact clarification on this can make or break certain substance infusions.

I was aware of the other form infusions I could take such as blade, whip, and spindle, as well as the various AoE abilities. But I appreciate the suggestion to give them more weight regardless.

Thank you for your input, though I hope to garner enough attention on this post to have Mr. Seifter, the main designer of this class, clarify the ambiguity if there truly is no RAW answer as of yet.


Ionus93 wrote:
Does the effect apply on every hit, or does it operate like flurry of blasts and give a cumulative penalty with each hit after the first?

Yes. Note that Flurry of Blasts doesn't say that it specially applies to every hit. Rather it shows an assumption of this fact and then creates an exception to the way that usually works.

This text shows a lot of intent too:

Quote:
When a kineticist modifies a kinetic blast with a form infusion and a substance infusion that both require saving throws, each target first attempts a saving throw against the form infusion. If a target succeeds and a successful save negates the infusion's effects, the entire kinetic blast is negated; otherwise, the target then attempts a saving throw against the substance infusion. If a kineticist's form and substance infusions both alter the kinetic blast's damage, apply the substance infusion's alteration first.

It wouldn't say "each target" if the substance infusion couldn't apply multiple times from the same blast.


If that is the way it works, then why wouldn't something to the effect be stated more explicitly in the general description of kinetic blasts in general of the commonly used blade/whip? (Since they're the most used full attack infusions)

It seems strange that in order to ascertain how kinetic Fist works with respect to this question, you first have to decipher and reverse engineer an infusion that you're banned from taking in the first place.

Silver Crusade

I'm not familiar with all the issues being discussed here, but my impression is that clarity was sacrificed on the alter of word count, in Occult Adventures. There was't room in the book for all the clarifying language that should ideally have been there.


Honestly, I've read the class multiple times and it's never occurred to me that it might not work for every "attack". So, it's not surprising to me that it never occurred to the designers to specify it.

Note that the same question would apply to every other enhancement of the blast. The same logic that applies to fist should also apply to blade, since they can both be used as a full attack. Now, let's say I use metakinesis to increase the damage of the blast. Would that increased damage apply to every attack with my blade that round or just the first attack? If the increase to damage applies to every attack, then why wouldn't the benefits of infusion apply to every attack?


You might likely be right, Melkiador and PCScipio, and perhaps I'm being overly technical. The main issue that I'm encountering is that my GM seems to tbink it works the exact same way as flurry of blasts (one effect per infusion, just a cumulative penalty based on successful hits) since that's the ONLY thing that details anything about full attacking with substance infusions. While I do disagree with his ruling, despite being able to acknowledge the logic in it, I know (because he's told me so much) that his logic is based on a lack of actual specificity of the behavior of Kinetic Fist/Blade/Whip in this specific instance. Hence why I'm searching for something that either we're both missing or just isn't specified and can be clarified by a dev so as to present a RAW solution to the ambiguity we face.


It’s possible Mark Seifter might weigh in on the original intent. He’s still one of the more responsive developers, even if most of his attention is on second edition now.


Melkiador wrote:
It’s possible Mark Seifter might weigh in on the original intent. He’s still one of the more responsive developers, even if most of his attention is on second edition now.

That is my hope. I also appreciate others weighting in and giving their logic/rationale should Mr. Seifter never see this post or comment on it. It may lead to a compromised ruling in this case, if more collective wisdom than just my own can be provided to my GM.

Paizo Employee Pathfinder Design Manager

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Melkiador wrote:

Honestly, I've read the class multiple times and it's never occurred to me that it might not work for every "attack". So, it's not surprising to me that it never occurred to the designers to specify it.

There were some sentences we wrote in and then had to cut to fit the class without sacrificing any of the wild talents, but yeah, this wasn't one of them. I was just not expecting that reading. Each hit is another tick of the substance infusion. If that seems really powerful, especially on natural attack builds that can get tons of kinetic fists off at a pretty low level, there's a reason kinetic fist doesn't also do a ton of its own damage per hit.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Melkiador wrote:

Honestly, I've read the class multiple times and it's never occurred to me that it might not work for every "attack". So, it's not surprising to me that it never occurred to the designers to specify it.

There were some sentences we wrote in and then had to cut to fit the class without sacrificing any of the wild talents, but yeah, this wasn't one of them. I was just not expecting that reading. Each hit is another tick of the substance infusion. If that seems really powerful, especially on natural attack builds that can get tons of kinetic fists off at a pretty low level, there's a reason kinetic fist doesn't also do a ton of its own damage per hit.

Apologies for being 100% specific, especially if it sounds redundant Mr. Seifter, but does that mean that things like Vampiric infusion and Enervating infusion would apply to each hit on an elemental ascetic's elemental flurry?

Also, while my GM is with me, he would like to know: Since a composite blast has double the number of dice, would that double the number of dice a Kinetic Fist Infusion has?


Ionus93 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Each hit is another tick of the substance infusion.
Apologies for being 100% specific, especially if it sounds redundant Mr. Seifter, but does that mean that things like Vampiric infusion and Enervating infusion would apply to each hit on an elemental ascetic's elemental flurry?

That was already pretty specific.

Quote:
Also, while my GM is with me, he would like to know: Since a composite blast has double the number of dice, would that double the number of dice a Kinetic Fist Infusion has?

As written, no. But I am curious if that was the original intent.

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