The best full caster Gish I've seen


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13th level Wizard, Spell Blending, evocation as school = 5 7th level Magic Missile.
2 Focus points = 2 7th level Force Blast.
2 Wands of Manifold Missiles (5th level).
Each wand will release 2 Missiles at round 2 and 3.

We have 7 7th level Magic Missiles/Force Blasts and 6 5th level Magic Missiles.

7th level Magic Missile/Force Blast deals 4d4 + 4 + 7 (Sorcerer Dedication + Dangerous Sorcery) = 21 damage.
5th level Magic Missile deals 3d4 + 3 + 5 = 15.5 damage.

7 * 21 = 147
15.5 * 6 = 93
240 points of damage.

For the evil Cleric:
2 7th level Harm + 5 7th level Harm (Harming Font) + 2 6th level Harm = 61 levels of Harm.
Each level of Harm deals 1d10 (Harming Hands) + 1 (Sorcerer Dedication + Dangerous Sorcery) = 6.5 damage.
61 * 6.5 = 396.5 points of damage.

If you add spells in the contest, then you no more play a gish, as you no more need to Strike.
Anyway, this contest is a bit off, as playing a gish is not all about damage. If you want to deal tons of single target damage, you would play a martial, as they are the best at it.

And my Druid build greatly outdamages MongrelHorde's build. But I counted property runes on damage, which is a bit unclear per RAW. But anyway even without this damage, my Druid is clearly ahead as it drops the Worm at round 5 with 285.25 points of damage.

Silver Crusade

Ah, Dangerous Sorcery - ok I see it now - thanks.

I am curious what do most people think of when they think of playing a gish?

Just a martial character with some kind of magical support originating from the character vs getting the support from another player? It sounds like what it means to play a gish varies a great deal depending on who you ask.

I am also curious about that Druid build - sounds interesting.


I gave it, Druid with Plant Shape, Savage Bear Animal Companion and Sneak Attack from Rogue Dedication.


I realize I made a mistake. Dangerous Sorcery doesn't apply to Wands of Manifold Missiles. So it's only 210 points of damage, but you still drop the worm at round 4.

And for the Druid, you don't need Plant Shape, so I can go Multitalented(Monk Dedication) + Flurry of Blows in place.

Damage is 4d8 + 7 (Animal Form) + 1d6 (Sneak) + 2d6 (runes, if we count them) + 2d8 (Bear support).
+ 25 to hit against AC 30 (Flat-Footed).

Without the runes:
First round: 48.45 points of damage
Subsequent rounds: 76.875
Dropped after 4 rounds with 279.075 points of damage.

With runes:
First round: 60.35
Subsequent rounds: 91.625
Dropped after 4 rounds with 335.225 points of damage.

One less round!
I'm surprised of the damage the Druid can deal. It's actually on par with the Magic Missile specialist.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
MongrelHorde wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
corwyn42 wrote:

I like the "always in range" argument, so the comparison is only about damage and not wasting actions on closing the distance for melee focused gish characters.

Yeah, I wasn't sure how many rounds to go. Perhaps we should compare how many rounds does it take your character to kill the Purple Worm.

Is the Worm doing anything in this scenario? Just using True Strike + Bespell + Ki Strike and a Monk/Wiz kills it on the third turn.
RAVIOLI RAVIOLI SHOW ME THOSE NUMBEROLIES!!!!

So I know it has been awhile but I've had time to actually put the numbers down now.

A lvl 13 Monk using a Temple Sword with Elemental damage runes (shock, flaming etc) hits AC 32 for an avg of 96.975 (97) 90.25 damage a round using

True Strike->Bespell Wep->Ki Strike->Strike

Assuming I'm using this tool correctly. dps chart image

To calculate Ki Strike I did the attacks at +1/-3 with 12 bonus damage to account for the 4d6 ki strike damage.

EDIT- oh no! it should be +1/-4 because Temple Sword is a non-agile Wep! readjusted numbers, damnit ki strike should be 14 not 12.

Purple Worm has 270 HP.

Using this build gish monk Note it for some reason doesn't show the Wizard Archetype feats, which other than basic casting are Familiar (Familiar Focus, Darkvision) and Bespell wep.

The first 2 rounds of True Strike->BeSpell->Ki Strike->Strike

drop the worm to 76HP90HP

3rd round, Familiar Focus, True Strike-> Bespell->Ki Strike is ~81 damage, Purple Worm dead in 3 4 rounds. Maybe possible in 3 have to correct ki damage still.

I don't think I messed anything up but could be wrong. I messed up

Now I'm thinking a 1d6 agile wep might be a better idea to take greater advantage of making sure both ki strikes land, going to have to check.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Ok, so doing this (True Strike->Bespell Wep->Ki Strike->Strike) again with a Kama and the correct damage for Ki Strike, a Monk avgs 93dmg vs 32 AC

With a Temple Sword it avgs to 94dmg vs 32 AC.

Familiar Focus->True Strike->BeSpell->Ki Strike with a kama avgs 83dmg.

For a total of 269 in 3 rounds... so a rounding error from killing the Purple Worm in 3 rounds.

Familiar Focus-> True Strike-> Bespell-> Ki Strike with a Temple Sword avgs 86

for a total of 274 total damage, killing the Purple Worm in 3 Rounds.

These numbers are including elemental damage runes on the weapon, mostly because I'm not sure how to do the math on things like Keen or Grievous with a Temple Sword giving flatfooted on the later attacks etc.

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