Magus and Natural attacks: I still don't get it.

[Gray Warden]

So, let's consider two identical 3rd level Magi with Bite/Claw/Claw who want to full-attack with their natural attacks (NO manufactured weapons) AND cast a spell via spell combat+spell strike.

However, the first has the Natural Spell Combat Magus Arcana, and the other doesn't. What's the difference in full-attack routines between the two? What can the first Magus do that the second cannot? Please, answer by giving two examples of full-attacks with natural weapons and spell combat+spellstrike.

Natural Spell Combat:

Benefit: The magus can use his spell combat class feature with a natural attack of his choice. If he does, he gains a +2 bonus on concentration checks. If the natural attack is made with an appendage that would normally hold a weapon (such as a claw attack), the magus cannot wield a weapon in that appendage while making natural attacks with it. If the natural attack is a bite or other attack that does not require a free appendage to make, the magus can use the natural attack in addition to all of the attacks he could make with his melee weapon, if he has one.

A magus can select this arcana more than once. The bonus on concentration checks does not stack. Each time he selects this arcana, he selects another natural weapon. For example, a magus could select this arcana twice, choosing claw attacks and bite attacks. This would allow him to use a full-round action to make all of his claw attacks with his free hand and all of his bite attacks in addition to casting a spell. This arcana otherwise functions exactly like the spell combat class feature.

[MrCharisma]

You can't use a Bite with Spell Combat unless you have Natural Spell Combat.

Also with either Magus you can only use one claw with Spell Combat, as the other claw is busy casting a spell. Note that you don't need Natural Spell Combat to use claws with Spell Combat as they already qualify.

So Magus-1 goes: Spell-Claw-Bite

Magus-2 goes: Spell-Claw

[Coolwasabi]

So apparently an FAQ already allows you to spell combat with a claw as your weapon without that ability, but also shows that normally you wouldn't be able to do the bite.

FAQ: "Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat."

So you would need Natural Spell Combat to be able to use the bite during it. However what I am also not sure on is if you can pick Natural Spell Combat again for claws to use in the offhand that is casting the spell or not.

[MrCharisma]

Coolwasabi wrote:

However what I am also not sure on is if you can pick Natural Spell Combat again for claws to use in the offhand that is casting the spell or not.

Not unless you have a 3rd hand to cast the spell with.

[willuwontu]

Relevant FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?

Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.

It allows you to use your bite attack during spell combat, if you choose bite for the arcana. Thus you can claw once and bite each time you use spell combat in addition to the attack granted by the spell.

If you took it a second time choosing claw and had a third arm and two claws (say, kasatha with something to give it a pair of claws), you would be able to attack with both of your claws during spell combat, whereas without it you could only attack with one claw, since spell combat is not a full-attack action.

Examples:

Magus without natural spell arcana:
Claw, spell

Magus with natural spell arcana (bite):
Claw, bite, spell

Magus with 3 arms, 2 claws, natural spell arcana (bite), natural spell arcana (claw):
Claw, claw, bite, spell

[RAWmonger]

Why you would ever use this for anything besides adding gore/bite/tail/wing attacks on top of your manufacturer weapon attacks is beyond me. Normally I’m a pro-natural weapons sort of guy, but they suck hard for a magus. There’s far better things to do with your magus arcana.

[LordKailas]

RAWmonger wrote:

Why you would ever use this for anything besides adding gore/bite/tail/wing attacks on top of your manufacturer weapon attacks is beyond me. Normally I’m a pro-natural weapons sort of guy, but they suck hard for a magus. There’s far better things to do with your magus arcana.

well, the nice thing is that taking it once lets you make use of all of your natural attacks of that type. So, if you had a whole bunch of the same type of attack its less costly.

[Gray Warden]

willuwontu wrote:

Examples:

Magus without natural spell arcana:
Claw, spell

Magus with natural spell arcana (bite):
Claw, bite, spell

What happens when we add Spellstrike? Can I deliver the spell as part of whatever natural attack? Using your examples, is it correct to say:

Magus without natural spell arcana:
Claw, Claw + spell, or
Claw, Bite + spell

Magus with natural spell arcana (bite):
Claw, Bite, Claw + spell, or
Claw, Bite, Bite + spell

~ ~ ~

What happen, then, if we add manufactured weapons and Natural Spell Combat [Bite]? Is bite added as a secondary attack? That is:

Weapon, Weapon + spell, Bite (-5 hit), or
Weapon, Bite (-5 hit), Bite + spell (-5 hit)

[willuwontu]

You can use spellstrike with a natural attack to deliver the spell (in addition to its normal attack made via spell combat). For my home games, I'd restrict you to weapons associated with a hand (no bite, but I'd make it so natural spell arcana let you use it), although as written you can use any melee weapon you are wielding. That would be a personal ruling for my games though.

That would change the examples to:

Magus without natural spell arcana:
Claw, spell (delivered via bite or claw or other applicable weapon)

With natural spell arcana (bite):
Claw, bite, spell (delivered via bite or claw or other applicable weapon)

~~~

And for your question:

Using a manufactured weapon in one hand while having 2 arms, 2 claws, and a bite and has natural spell arcana (bite):
Weapon, bite, spell (delivered via bite or claw or other applicable weapon)

For the spell strike, I would treat it as a primary weapon if you use a natural weapon, since it's called out as being made at full bab. Essentially, I'd treat it just like if you took an attack of opportunity with it during spell combat.

Additionally, I do not believe that you treat primary natural weapons as secondary during spell combat, since the natural attack rules for that call out using a full attack action (which spell combat is not). Nevermind that, the Spell combat and haste FAQ makes them be secondary during spell combat, since spell combat is treated as a full attack. Though that also appears to make natural spell arcana pointless, since you should be able to use your natural weapons during spell combat then.

[RAWmonger]

willuwontu wrote:

Though that also appears to make natural spell arcana pointless, since you should be able to use your natural weapons during spell combat then.

The general Spell Combat rules only allow you attacks with one melee weapon, not "make a full attack however you want and add a spell to it." It is exclusively "as a full-attack action" make all of your attacks with ONE melee weapon. Obviously Natural Spell Combat arcana changes that to allow also a natural attack. But a vanilla magus is restricted to making attacks with a single weapon.

I think the spirit of the text is to not allow cheesy stuff, but as written, a magus with quickdraw would *not* be able to start spell combat, make an attack with his rapier, drop his rapier, draw his dagger, and continue to make attacks. Once you attack with a weapon you're theoretically locked into using only that weapon during your spell combat.

[bbangerter]

RAWmonger wrote:

willuwontu wrote:

Though that also appears to make natural spell arcana pointless, since you should be able to use your natural weapons during spell combat then.

The general Spell Combat rules only allow you attacks with one melee weapon, not "make a full attack however you want and add a spell to it." It is exclusively "as a full-attack action" make all of your attacks with ONE melee weapon. Obviously Natural Spell Combat arcana changes that to allow also a natural attack. But a vanilla magus is restricted to making attacks with a single weapon.

I think the spirit of the text is to not allow cheesy stuff, but as written, a magus with quickdraw would *not* be able to start spell combat, make an attack with his rapier, drop his rapier, draw his dagger, and continue to make attacks. Once you attack with a weapon you're theoretically locked into using only that weapon during your spell combat.

That's not actually quoted correctly.

Spell Combat wrote:

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

With his melee weapon. Not with one specific melee weapon. But whatever melee weapon he is wielding at the time he wants to make an attack during the full attack routine (with the restriction it is light or one-handed).

And per faq it specifically needs to be a weapon in your other hand (the one not used for casting the spell).

[willuwontu]

Yeah, I just needed to scroll a bit more and see this FAQ to realize why they can't use all their natural attacks normally during spell combat.