Gestalt! Full BAB, 9th level spells, all good saves... Go


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


To seed the discussion, I have half a dozen good ones:

1.
Brawler (Snakebite Striker)/
Sorcerer (Eldritch Scrapper)

Gives the Snakebite Brawler back its Martial Flexibility, and has 9th level casting based on Charisma to help with the Bluff/Feint stuffs. Has Sneak Attack as a bonus. 4+INT Skills.

2.
Slayer (Vanguard)/
Wizard (Instructor)

With the Divination School, you ALWAYS go first, you have access to Teamwork feats and the ability to give Teamwork feats to your allies. You get Sneak Attack. And you have a Cohort, yay. 6+INT Skills.

3.
Slayer (Ankou's Shadow)/
Arcanist (Blade Adept)

Using Dimensional Slide and Shadow Doubles is awesome. And Sneak Attack. 6+INT Skills.

4.
Slayer (Stygian Slayer)/
Witch (Any)

Stygian Slayer gets to use spell trigger and completion items from the Illusion School, which helps the Witch's relatively narrow spell list. Plus dropping Hexes whilst invisible can be useful. Also has Sneak Attack. 6+INT Skills.

5.
Brawler (Exemplar)/
Cleric (Evangelist)

You are the best full BAB, 9th level spellcasting Bard, ever. 4+INT Skills.

6.
Gunslinger (Bolt Ace)/
Shaman

You are a crack shot with a crossbow and you can help out the Cleric, the Sorcerer, and the Witch. 4+INT Skills.

What other good combinations do you know of that fit the criteria?


Gunslinger/Ranger/Slayer plus any 9th level caster.

EDIT: Unchained Monk works for the martial side as well.

Druids and Clerics have more options because they have a good Fort save, although the only option it adds that I can think of is Swashbuckler.


Goliath druid and unchained monk or brawler. Fists the size of a keg and CMB for days. Size limits on combat maneuvers? Nah, no worry.


I was definitely considering an UnChained Monk with Druid... Flurry of Giant Lake Octopus!!!

Even better if Tetori is capable of being UnChained.

I have always loved the idea of a Tetori Kraken Caller...


Here we go:

Brawler/Gunslinger/Ranger/Shifter/Slayer/Unchained-Monk can work with any 9th level caster.

Swashbuckler can work with Cleric/Druid.

Paladin can work with Sorcerer/Oracle - technically has a low Reflex Save progression, but it'll probably end up with a higher Reflex Save than any of the other combos (higher all saves really).


Number 1, and Number 6 in my original post, are probably capable of completing the majority of published Adventure Paths as a 2 player team...

It only gets worse when you consider Number 2 and Number 5 getting involved as a 4 player, normal gestalt team...


Psychometrist avenger vigilante // cleric, druid or shaman. Skills are 6+Int with vigilante social talents; covered. Spells can be buffed by occultist implements. And yes, you're full BAB with a few vigilante talents. A bit MAD since you'll want Int and Wis, but gestalt games often run to higher point buys or generous rolling systems.

Unchained monk // ashiftah witch. Take hex strike and you can be invisible every round while also getting a full attack in. And a hex. Not that an ashiftah witch can't do that without the gestalt, but the full attack becomes way more impressive with monk.


I think the UnChained Monk is better to gestalt with a bad touch Cleric.

UnChained Scaled Fist with Sorcerer or Oracle would be more optimal, in my opinion.

That "Battle Witch" is underwhelming, especially in juxtapose to the pre-errata Scarred Witch Doctor in gestalt with pretty much anything...

Mmm Racial Heritage Ogre + Corrupted Flesh + Improved Stench + Ability Focus + ring,scroll,wand of Amplify Stench...
60' radius,
DC = 16 + (1/2 HD) + Con-mod
Effect: NAUSEATED and/or SICKENED...(consider yourself dead when the Hexes/Spells drop)...


I think that you have failed to consider the implications of at-will invisibility VM. In combat the action economy can't be beaten, out of combat with an appropriate hex it's a marvelous tool.

Sure, pre-errata scarred witch doctor with feats intended for monsters is impressive in combat but 1) that doesn't take away from the ashiftah, 2) it requires the use of the pre-errata version of the archetype and said monster feats, 3) your plan takes all your feats for ages, 4) it makes you absurdly bad at dealing with people out of combat...


1st class: Druid or other full-caster with unrestricted Animal Companion choices
2nd class. VMC Barbarian [Dreadnought archetype]
-- You'll need/want to be a half-orc, or a human with Racial Heritage.

Result:
* At 3rd, gain a +2 rage without eating the usual AC penalties and other deleterious concentration problems associated with normal rage (meaning: no interference to your spellcasting or skill usage).

* At 7th, acquire Uncanny Dodge (always useful for those without the best armor choices, let alone feats to pump it).

* At 11th, acquire the rage-power Ferocious Beast, and simultaneously take the feat Amplified Rage, and now you're sharing +6 rages with your snarling monster.

(This is perfectly tailored for the druid who desires to ride her companion into melee, and wants it buffed six ways to Sunday.)


Slim Jim wrote:

1st class: Druid or other full-caster with unrestricted Animal Companion choices

2nd class. VMC Barbarian [Dreadnought archetype]
-- You'll need/want to be a half-orc, or a human with Racial Heritage.

Result:
* At 3rd, gain a +2 rage without eating the usual AC penalties and other deleterious concentration problems associated with normal rage (meaning: no interference to your spellcasting or skill usage).

That's not how VMC works.

Did you mean *regular Barbarian?

EDIT: *Regular Dreadnought Barbarian.


avr wrote:
I think that you have failed to consider the implications of at-will invisibility VM. In combat the action economy can't be beaten, out of combat with an appropriate hex it's a marvelous tool.

How are you getting the move action to ghost walk after full attacking? Hex Strike works here since a full round action leaves your swift, but it looks to me like the Ashifta's Ghostwalk requires a move action.


MrCharisma wrote:
That's not how VMC works.

Seeing as VMC is basically just a Paizo alternative house-rule anyway (i.e., they're not even PFS-legal), many GMs using it will permit further customization. (I know some that permit full-level double-classing for some *insanely* powerful combinations.)

Adding a dash of archetype seasoning to VMC is a very common home-game house-rule, as RAW VMC is fairly weak-sauce as it is. (The OP certainly seems to be under the impression that archetype VMCs are permissible, likely because GMs he has seen it under have permitted it.)


Slim Jim wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
That's not how VMC works.

Seeing as VMC is basically just a Paizo alternative house-rule anyway (i.e., they're not even PFS-legal), many GMs using it will permit further customization. (I know some that permit full-level double-classing for some *insanely* powerful combinations.)

Adding a dash of archetype seasoning to VMC is a very common home-game house-rule, as RAW VMC is fairly weak-sauce as it is. (The OP certainly seems to be under the impression that archetype VMCs are permissible, likely because GMs he has seen it under have permitted it.)

You seem to be confused. The thread is about gestalt rules, not VMC.


Yes, gestalt, not VMC.

In gestalt, both classes are taken simultaneously.

You have all of both classes class skills, taking the higher skills per level of the two.

You take the best saves of both classes.

You take the higher BAB of the two classes.

The way I, personally, run gestalt is that you can't be more than a "10th level caster"...

4th level spellcasting classes can be combined with other 4th level spellcasting classes to make an "8th level caster"...

4th level spellcasting classes can be combined with 6th level spellcasting classes to make a "10th level caster"...

6th level spellcasting classes can be combined with 4th level spellcasting classes to make a "10th level caster"...

6th level spellcasting classes cannot be combined with other 6th level spellcasting classes to make a "12th level caster"...

9th level spellcasting classes cannot be combined with any other spellcasting classes...

These are just my rules, and I'm sure they are different from table to table.


VoodistMonk wrote:

Yes, gestalt, not VMC.

In gestalt, both classes are taken simultaneously. You have all of both classes class skills, taking the higher skills per level of the two. You take the best saves of both classes. You take the higher BAB of the two classes.

(Derp. I see what's going on now: I inadvertently posted to the wrong thread when I had two-dozen tabs open in my browser.)

However, gesalt makes this VMC idea:

Slim Jim wrote:

1st class: Druid or other full-caster with unrestricted Animal Companion choices

2nd class. VMC Barbarian [Dreadnought archetype]
-- You'll need/want to be a half-orc, or a human with Racial Heritage.
Result:
* At 3rd, gain a +2 rage without eating the usual AC penalties and other deleterious concentration problems associated with normal rage (meaning: no interference to your spellcasting or skill usage).
* At 7th, acquire Uncanny Dodge (always useful for those without the best armor choices, let alone feats to pump it).
* At 11th, acquire the rage-power Ferocious Beast, and simultaneously take the feat Amplified Rage, and now you're sharing +6 rages with your snarling monster.

...even way mo better, as the druid-rider will be cramming in a Ferocious Beast-augmented Amplified Rage as early as 3rd level instead of having the wait until 11th.

Sovereign Court

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While it doesn't TECHNICALLY meet your criteria, I'm pretty confident that the strongest possible Gestalt character is a Master Summoner/Evangelist Cleric combination. Take a domain that gives you a familiar, and eventually pick up Improved Familiar to turn it into an Air Wysp. Take Versatile Summon Monster so you can summon aerial version of your best summons (like eventually flying dire tigers). As soon as your bard song gets to move action or better, you're golden.


For the ultimate wilderness warrior a ranger/druid would be hard to beat. This covers the requirement of full BAB, all good saves and 9th level casting. You also get a decent amount of skills and some bonuses on a few skills. Getting perception as a class skill on a WIS based character with plenty of skill points is even better. You also get stealth on a character that has a good DEX. Throw in a wild shape and a few spells as this character is not being found unless he wants to be, and will spot just about anyting.

Combat wise you can take natural weapon combat style for some free feats to boost you combat ability in wild shape. You also get an animal companion that can be boosted by spells from both classes. The druid also gets decent combat spells. While they may not be as good as a wizard they are better than a clerics.

Magic wise you are not only getting 9th level casting, you also get 4th level casting. While that may not seem all that impressive it does give you enough spells that you can afford to use some for utility instead of just combat. You will also double dip on bonus spells from WIS.

Both classes also get a lot of class abilities, and they actually complement each other.


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I'm in the middle of DMing a 2 yr Evil Gestalt campaign right now and they're level 14. We play with 3rd party rules, so we have:

Dual-Discipline Egoist/Nomad Psion + Synthesist Summoner (Think Venom from Spiderman, except with Psionics)
Gravewalker Witch + Juju Oracle (Necromancer)
Seducer Witch + Bard (Seducer)
Centaur Charger Cavalier + Druid
Gun Chemist + Spy (Infiltrator)

They're all really good combinations tbh. I initially thought the Cavalier Druid was going to struggle, but then he started 1-shotting or near-1shotting my monsters without even critically striking then wild shape into an eagle and start casting spells; he took the Order of the Reins so he has all kinds of trained animals, and next level they're going to start stampeding with him whenever he charges someone-- may the gods help me. The Necromancer has probably 400-500HD worth of undead right now, and anything that gets within range of her Poppet gets debuffed to the point of paralysis; anything the group kills gets animated into her undead army. The Seducer is running her own coven of 15 witches, and the Necromancer is part of the coven. The Summoner/Psion took the Thrallherd PrC and started his own religion, and then every city he gets more followers and building temples everywhere, he even started his own city. And the Infiltrator does his dual identity thing and can con his way into anything, they've even pulled off two bank heists now.


As far as "best" combination, that's pretty subjective because players all have their own way of playing the game and what role they would like to fill. That being said, I'd say Master Summoner + Anything should be a contender for "best". Master Summoners can pretty much solo the game. If you're including 3rd party, I think Soul Thief Vitalist or Chaotic Surge Wilder + anything should also be a contender for "best".

Chaotic Surge Wilder + Master Summoner.... now that would be a potent mix.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

As far as "best" combination, that's pretty subjective because players all have their own way of playing the game and what role they would like to fill. That being said, I'd say Master Summoner + Anything should be a contender for "best". Master Summoners can pretty much solo the game. If you're including 3rd party, I think Soul Thief Vitalist or Chaotic Surge Wilder + anything should also be a contender for "best".

Chaotic Surge Wilder + Master Summoner.... now that would be a potent mix.

I just can't seem to get on board with the Summoner. I can obviously see how it is powerful, but the entire concept makes me puke a little bit in my mouth.

I would way rather have a necromancer at my table than a Summoner. At least the necromancer is full of flavor and glorious roleplaying opportunity. The Summoner is just a ringleader, yanking things from their world into his circus. Both the necromancer and the Summoner are going to make a mess of the battlefield with a stupid amount of combatants, but I can accept the necromancer way easier (for whatever reason).

The Soulthief Vitalist is my favorite healer. Lots of potential in that archetype.


VoodistMonk wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

As far as "best" combination, that's pretty subjective because players all have their own way of playing the game and what role they would like to fill. That being said, I'd say Master Summoner + Anything should be a contender for "best". Master Summoners can pretty much solo the game. If you're including 3rd party, I think Soul Thief Vitalist or Chaotic Surge Wilder + anything should also be a contender for "best".

Chaotic Surge Wilder + Master Summoner.... now that would be a potent mix.

I just can't seem to get on board with the Summoner. I can obviously see how it is powerful, but the entire concept makes me puke a little bit in my mouth.

I would way rather have a necromancer at my table than a Summoner. At least the necromancer is full of flavor and glorious roleplaying opportunity. The Summoner is just a ringleader, yanking things from their world into his circus. Both the necromancer and the Summoner are going to make a mess of the battlefield with a stupid amount of combatants, but I can accept the necromancer way easier (for whatever reason).

The Soulthief Vitalist is my favorite healer. Lots of potential in that archetype.

As a Soulthief, take Blind-Fight then get Intuitive Fighting. It swaps your Str for Wis when making attacks and most creatures have a Touch AC of 10-15. And then when you're level 5, take Expanded Knowledge to get Hammer. Manifest Hammer on yourself, then start doing the Soulthief Xfer Wounds for ungodly amounts of damage that only misses on a 3-4 roll or less (unless you're attacking a high-Dex rogue or something), meanwhile you're healing your group for w/e your Xfer Wounds deals. Absolutely nuts.


Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

Blind-Fight
Intuitive Fighting
Empower Power

Let's say you were ML16 with a Wisdom of 26, and you manifest Hammer for 15pp and use Empower Power on it, you could Augment it to have 7 charges that cause 4d8 (+50%) damage each strike, or you could augment it to have 5 charges that causes 5d8 (+50%) damage each strike, or even to have 11 charges that cause 2d8 (+50%), or even 2 charges that cause 7d8 (+50%).

So at level 15, 8 BAB + 8 Wis + w/e you have to increase attack, so that's a +16 to hit Touch AC. So that hits just about everything on a roll of 2 or higher.

It's 6d6+16 for Soulthief Xfer Wounds + Hammer (2 charges that cause 7d8 (+50%) is the most bang for your buck)

So you'd cause 3.5x6=21+16= 37 damage with Xfer wounds and then Triage heal your group for 37 , and then your Hammer would go off because you touched the target, so another 4.5x7= 31.5 +50% = 47.25 damage

So that's an average of 84.25 damage + 37 triage healing per round that hits on everything but a 1 (excluding high dex targets). Not too shabby for a healer.


VoodistMonk wrote:
Both the necromancer and the Summoner are going to make a mess of the battlefield with a stupid amount of combatants, but I can accept the necromancer way easier (for whatever reason).

The master summoner may be about that, but a regular summoner really doesn't have to do that. A summoner focusing on the eidolon only summons other monsters as a backup plan. And the eidolon is a rich mine of flavor. It's an otherworldly, sentient being that is bound to you for its own unique reasons.

But going to the other side of troublesome summoner archetypes, combining the synthesist with the brawler could create an amazing grappler. Combine the brawler bonuses and feats with the synthesist's grab ability and size increases.


Honestly, Fighter//Wizard. Sometimes you don't need special synergy, you just bring the biggest guns. With Advanced Weapon Training the Fighter is positively a beast these days and a top-notch martial. You can trade out Armor Training (since you won't be using armor) in favor of any number of useful archetypes, such as Mutation Warrior. Wizard needs no introduction; it's a Wizard. Using Elven Battle Focus you can get Int to damage, using Knowledge is power you can get Int to CMB/CMD. This means you only really require Dex and Int. And that's really it; there's nothing special here, just the raw power of using two very strong classes and taking a few feats to keep your ability score requirements down to just Dex and Int (which is a god place to be).

I'm also surprised no one has mentioned Paladin/Sorcerer or Paladin/Oracle yet; anything people run multiclass will usually work even better gestalt.


The original poster requested all good saves, so some usual obvious gestalt combos didn't get mentioned. Personally, I don't find a good reflex save to be as important. Most reflex saves are just hit point damage, and the ones that aren't usually just require a followup fortitude save.


Melkiador wrote:
The original poster requested all good saves, so some usual obvious gestalt combos didn't get mentioned. Personally, I don't find a good reflex save to be as important. Most reflex saves are just hit point damage, and the ones that aren't usually just require a followup fortitude save.

Paladin Sorc would have amazing saves if you boost Cha :)


Melkiador wrote:
The original poster requested all good saves, so some usual obvious gestalt combos didn't get mentioned. Personally, I don't find a good reflex save to be as important. Most reflex saves are just hit point damage, and the ones that aren't usually just require a followup fortitude save.

Ah, I missed the "all good saves" part. I guess that does technically disqualify everything I mentioned even if for all practical purposes all those builds have access to excellent Reflex saves through other means.

Reflex saves often limit mobility as well as deal damage, which can be a problem, but as a full caster you can just carry teleportation spells to get out of that if you ever get trapped by a Resilient Sphere or something.

Sovereign Court

VoodistMonk wrote:
The Summoner is just a ringleader, yanking things from their world into his circus.

Summoner was already one of my favourite classes, with focusing on monster summoning being one of my favorite ways to play, but you just somehow made me like those things even more.

I feel like there's a lot more flavor to monster summoning than you give it credit for. Imagine the book worm, immersing himself in monster lore tomes. One day he finds a book that teaches him how to call manifestations of these creatures to his side for a short time to do his bidding. His long hours with his head in a book have given him the knowledge he needs to know just the right creature to summon for just the right occasion.

BAM. Monster Summoner.


Also I did mention Paladin plus Sorcerer/Oracle in my 2nd post (5th post of the thread).

Honestly, I'd say it does meet the prerequisites for this thread, since - as Ryze Kuja mentioned - it'd have incredible saves, probably a better reflex save than most of the other options mentioned.

The weird thing for me is the "no higher than 10th level casting" rule. It cuts down any 6th+6th combos, which is a huge number of classes. I thought for a Gestalt game you'd want to play up the power fantasy, so even banning 9th+9th seems counter-intuitive to me. But hey, it's not my game, and let's be honest I'm sure it's fun. Just remember to take a non-spellcasting variant of your Bloodragers/Paladins/Rangers when combining them with full casters.


MrCharisma wrote:

Also I did mention Paladin plus Sorcerer/Oracle in my 2nd post (5th post of the thread).

Honestly, I'd say it does meet the prerequisites for this thread, since - as Ryze Kuja mentioned - it'd have incredible saves, probably a better reflex save than most of the other options mentioned.

The weird thing for me is the "no higher than 10th level casting" rule. It cuts down any 6th+6th combos, which is a huge number of classes. I thought for a Gestalt game you'd want to play up the power fantasy, so even banning 9th+9th seems counter-intuitive to me. But hey, it's not my game, and let's be honest I'm sure it's fun. Just remember to take a non-spellcasting variant of your Bloodragers/Paladins/Rangers when combining them with full casters.

I usually play martial characters, and as such, I have an innate distrust of 9th level spellcasting classes with very little understanding of what they are capable of.

I don't have the knowledge or experience to contain a party of 9-and-9 spellcasting classes gestalted together.

I tried to make rules that would make well-rounded, high survivability characters... nothing too crazy, but solid nonetheless.

During character creation, I don't allow any stats below an 8, after racial modifiers are applied, either.

This is still my first time GM'ing Pathfinder, so I had to contain it somehow. Lol.

Maybe when I have more than one AP worth of GM'ing experience I can revisit my gestalt rules and remove the "10th level spellcasting" limit.


Having limits isn't a problem, it's more that if I were to put a limit on it I just wouldn't allow Gestalt. Gestalt is usually either for a very small group (so your PCs can take on the challenges without having to re-write everything) of for a high powered game.

It's fine, as long as your group is enjoying it (and why wouldn't they be?) it's not a problem, it's just not how I'd have done it.


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Gestalt combat does take longer because there's far more options to consider for each character, so I make sure to do a "you're up, you're on deck, and you're in the hole" on Initiative so each player knows to start thinking about what they're doing at least 2 turns before their turn. It's hard to get into the habit at first, but once you get it down, it makes things much smoother.


I'm not sure how useful it would be, but an Elemental Annihilator Kineticist has full BAB with it's blasts, as well as good fort and reflex. I don't know if that's close enough to full BAB for the thought exercise, but it's worth mentioning just to be thorough. Always having the blast to fall back on does mean you don't need to worry about damaging spells, so it could be a good choice for spontaneous casters. Also, it'd be entertaining to use wildshape to turn into some bity little thing for an omni-blasting flea.

Still, it's hard to beat slayer/wizard. It's solid, uncomplicated, and unlikely to be crippled by DM tweaks.

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