DPR Olympics - Low level edition


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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@Cellion

Whew. Did your build just get even more DPR? Scary stuff.

@LordKailas

That's a pretty solid all-rounder that can tackle avr's challenge as well, but you missed the extra 2000 gp cost that magical Cold Iron weapons have.

====

I think I'll have to modify the challenge a bit since I've noticed a trend of Dedicated Adversary and Bane creeping into the submissions.
Maybe make the second encounter against Magical Beasts with identical stats?


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I'd let people add dedicated adversary using Martial Flexibility (or similar ability), and likewise Bane if they have an ability to spontaneously add it to a weapon.

Otherwise it's a bit specific to be realistically used.


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@MrCharisma

Yup, that was my intention.

====

--avr's challenge--

All-terrain ape express - Lv 5:
Human
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7

After 4th lv increase, Occultist, Enlarge Person, Headband, Mutagen, and Controlled Bloodrage
Str 30, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 7

====

Racial Traits and Character Traits
Bonus Feat, Heart of the Fey / Clever Wordplay (Handle Animal), Magical Knack

Feats and levels
Mutagenic Mauler Wild Child Brawler 1 / Occultist 1 / Urban Bloodrider Id Rager (Kindness) 1 / High Guardian Fighter 2

1 Equipment Trick (Sunrod), Escape Route, Mutagen
2
3 Extra Rage, Controlled Bloodrage
4
5 Boon Companion, Combat Reflexes (B)

====

Ride (vs DC 5, we only need Guide with Knees):
8 (ranks+class) +2 (MWK tool) +1 (Ioun Stone) +2 (Quintain) +1 (Dex) -5 (inappropriate) -5 (ACP)
= 4

Handle Animal (vs DC 20):
8 (ranks+class) +2 (MWK tool) +2 (Beast-Scent) +2 (Ioun Stone) +3 (Int)
= 17

====

Offense: (Enlarged, Legacy Weapon)

Attack:
10 (Str) +4 (BAB) +3 (Enhancement) -1 Size
= +16

Damage (Lance):
2d6 + 15 (Str) +3 (Enhancement) /+2d6
= 34.5*H

====

Magic Items:

+1 Lance (2300)
Muleback Cords (1000)
+2 Headband of Int (4000)
Cracked Magenta Prism (800)

====

Companion

Ape - Elemental Archetype (Water)
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 7
1 Hefty Brute
2 Friendly Switch*
5 Escape Route

Speed 40 ft, climb 40 ft, swim 30 ft (+10 from Bloodrider)

Carrying Capacity: 2200+

*The headband of Int was used to qualify the Ape for Friendly Switch before its 4th lv increase in Int.

***

With newfound respect for my worth adversary, the Dire Ape and I came to an agreement and set out to fight our mutual enemy.

Combat:
Prebuffing: Mutagen, Enlarge Person (CL 3, two spell slots per day)

Round 1.
Human: Free action rage, standard action apply Legacy Weapon, and move action to use the Equipment Trick (Sunrod)'s Lure ability with a 90% success rate.
Ape: Move action to get within 15 ft of the Cobra, then ready to move away when the Cobra approaches.

So with Lure we can force movement in the opposite direction of us at the start of the Cobra's turn, and it provokes. So we take that AoO and when it tries to use the rest of its movement to turn around the ape retreats. Then it must use another move action to approach since it can't charge, causing a total of two AoOs.
Lure AoO: 0.9[34.5*0.95] + AoO: [34.5*0.95] = 1.9[34.5*0.95] = 62.3 DPR

Round 2.
Human: Standard action attack, Swift action Opening Strike, move action Lure to force movement on the Cobra that is acting first (should know if they approached the previous turn, right?).
Ape: Move action to get to a better position if needed, ready standard to retreat when the first Cobra approaches.

A total of four AoOs (we use our Strength mod for Combat Reflexes) in addition to the Opening Strike combo.
AoO: 3[34.5*0.95] + Lure AoO: 0.9[34.5*0.95] + Standard [34.5*0.95] + Swift 0.95[34.5*0.95] = 5.85[34.5*0.95] = 191.7 DPR

Round 3.
Human: Standard action attack, Swift action Opening Strike, move action Lure to force movement.
Ape: Move action to displace our ally (that's no place to be!) and turn back to get 15 ft away, ready standard to retreat when the Cobra approaches and move the ally further away.

Two AoOs and the Opening Strike combo.
AoO: 1*[34.5*0.95] + Lure AoO: 0.9[34.5*0.95] + Standard [34.5*0.95] + Swift 0.95[34.5*0.95] = 3.85[34.5*0.95] = 126.2 DPR

***

Contest DPR (avr): 126.7
Contest DPR (wonderstell): 104.9

====

Equipment Trick: Sunrod:
Lure (Handle Animal 5 ranks): As a move action while holding a lit sunrod in your hand, you can attempt to move an animal in any direction you desire. Make a Handle Animal check against a DC of 15 + the target animal’s CR. If you are successful, the animal moves 5 feet in the desired direction on its next turn. For every 5 points by which your check exceeds the DC, the animal moves another 5 feet, up to the animal’s maximum speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal, though if one is taken, the animal immediately stops moving (whether or not the attack hits). You cannot move an animal into an obvious hazard with this trick, but you can (for example) lure it into an open cage.
***

Lure is actually extremely useful in the right situations. Enemy cavalier harassing you? Good luck trying to charge when your mounts moves 5 ft backwards every turn.


This seems to have already been surpassed, but I would like to know what people make of it.

Half Elf, Arcane Training Alternate Racial Trait, uses a Wand of Scorching Ray.

1Fighter 1: Precise Shot
2F1Ninja1: Sneak Attack 1d6
3F1N2: Ki Pool, Ninja Vanishing Trick, Extra Trick, Rogue Talent: False Attacker

So, this character uses Ninja Vanishing Trick as a Swift Action then can stealth. He then can fire his Wand of Scorching Ray as a Standard Action each round as a Ranged Touch Attack vs. Flatfooted AC every round after doing 4d6 Damage and also 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage. False Attacker lets him make a Bluff Check as an Immediate Action and if successful, the Ninja does not need to make a Stealth Check (so forget that -20!) because the victim thinks the attack came from some other direction.

So that's 5d6 +1 (Point Blank Shot)/round as Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC. I suppose I could cheat a little for this scenario and give the character Accomplished Sneak Attacker since he would probably have enough Ki to go for 3 rounds and add another 1d6 Damage/round, but that's not how I would really make the character.

So, 5d6+1/round, that's 18.5; a dire Ape's Flatfooted Touch AC is 9. Let's say the character has a Dex of 18, and his BAB would be +2, so +7 to Attack, so he only needs a 2 to hit, so 18.5 X .95 is between 17-18 points/attack for 52-3 points of damage in the 3 rounds. Dire Apes have 30 hp, so it should be killed in 2 rounds, and I have 3.


Maybe a Tengu with Claws, 2 levels in Barbarian with Lesser Fiend Totem and a level in Alchemist to pop that ST Mutagen.

So an 18 ST becomes 22 for +6 Damage.

Gore 1d8, Bite 1d6, and 2 Claws for 1d4 each, that's 13. Each attack does +6 for Strength for +24, that's 37. Attack bonus would be + 2 BAB +6 vs. AC 15 so the probability of hitting is 0.7 for a DPR of 26. That's higher, but I'm not as sure about the survivability as I am about my invisible Ninja.


Actually, My Ninja could just be a Rogue just carrying boxes trapped with Glyphs of Warding glyphed with Fireball made by level 5 Clerics. 200gp each, not terrible. 5d6 Damage, but Rogues have Evasion, say a Level1 Brawler/Level 2 Rogue with a Reflex Save of +5, and an 18 Dex and a +1 Cloak of Resistance, that's a +10 Reflex Save + Evasion. The DC Save would be 10 +3 + the Cleric's wisdom, so pessimistically 17, so the Rogue has a 70% chance of Saving and taking no Damage. The Ape has a 50% chance of taking half. This method would have the advantage of being able to take out a whole mess of Dire Apes, but that's not the scenario.

Or carry a necklace of fireballs for 8,700gp that do 58d6 of damage that would be highly survivable for the rogue, not so much for the poor ape. The Ape is just about guaranteed to take 100 points of damage, closer to 200 where the Rogue with Evasion saves on a 4, so takes 15% of the damage on average. I guess the next question is how many hp can we give the Rogue, and that will tell us how much damage we can inflict.


Wonderstell wrote:
Contest DPR (avr): 126.7

Whops, forgot about the concealment in the first round. But that's easily salvaged by buying Blind-Fight for around 1000 GP through a Wayfinder and four Cracked Incandescent blue sphere Ioun Stones.

Contest DPR (avr): 125.9

====

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, this character uses Ninja Vanishing Trick as a Swift Action then can stealth. He then can fire his Wand of Scorching Ray as a Standard Action each round as a Ranged Touch Attack vs. Flatfooted AC every round after doing 4d6 Damage and also 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage. False Attacker lets him make a Bluff Check as an Immediate Action and if successful, the Ninja does not need to make a Stealth Check (so forget that -20!) because the victim thinks the attack came from some other direction.

The invisibility effect from Vanish disappears when you attack, so you must have found some alternate cover/concealment within 30 ft of your target to apply Sneak Attack and for the False Attacker talent to function. But unfortunately there's no other creature except you and the Ape in the original challenge, so you can't use False Attacker at all.

====

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Actually, My Ninja could just be a Rogue just carrying boxes trapped with Glyphs of Warding glyphed with Fireball made by level 5 Clerics. 200gp each, not terrible.

The spirit of the contest is to create a build that deals this damage by itself. If you rely on other characters, level 5 Clerics that apparently doesn't even charge you for their spellcasting services, your build isn't inflicting the damage and has a DPR of 0.


Wonderstell wrote:
The invisibility effect from Vanish disappears when you attack, so you must have found some alternate cover/concealment within 30 ft of your target to apply Sneak Attack and for the False Attacker talent to function.

He could probably do it 3 times. That just requires a Level 2 Ninja with a Charisma of 14.

Wonderstell wrote:
But unfortunately there's no other creature except you and the Ape in the original challenge, so you can't use False Attacker at all.

There doesn't actually have to be another creature present for the Dire Ape to think that there is. I was assuming that the combat was happening in a forest, like--you know--where apes live. When you are in a forest an arrow or laserbeam could totally come out from anywhere. But your scenario is not in the forest? So what, an arena? Maybe an Audience member is cheating and harrassing the ape: how would the Ape know better? The answer to that question is a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive or Perception Check. Or is this some completely artificial scenario: a white-box separate plane with no one in the universe except me and the Ape? That would be dumb. Well, whatever.

Wonderstell wrote:
The spirit of the contest is to create a build that deals this damage by itself. If you rely on other characters, level 5 Clerics that apparently doesn't even charge you for their spellcasting services, your build isn't inflicting the damage and has a DPR of 0.

So what? Necklace of missiles, then. I guess 8000gp is too much to give the level 3 character as well. Too bad.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
He could probably do it 3 times. That just requires a Level 2 Ninja with a Charisma of 14.

If you use the False Attacker rogue talent you can't use the Vanishing Trick ninja trick in the next round because you've already used up your swift action for that turn. You need cover/concealment to keep the chain going.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
There doesn't actually have to be another creature present for the Dire Ape to think that there is.

That's the whole point of the False Attacker talent. You can't shift the blame if there's nobody around to shift the blame to. But sure, just for you there's another Dire Ape standing around nearby.

So you use Vanishing Trick as a swift action, then move into cover and use stealth to satisfy the prerequisites for False Attacker. You ready an attack so that you can use your immediate action even though you've already used a swift action this turn.

But wait. Dire Apes have scent, and you're within 30 ft for your sneak attack, so it would automatically know that you're still there. And considering that other Dire Apes don't usually blast foes with a searing beam of fire it just seems highly unlikely that anyone but you are the attacker.
So please make a Bluff check vs the Dire Ape's +16 scent Perception modifier, and take a -10/-20 penalty depending on if your GM decides it is a "Far-Fetched" or "Impossible" lie.

=====

And besides that, 4500 GP for a wand of Scorching Ray is outside the budget of a 3rd level character.


Wonderstell wrote:
And besides that, 4500 GP for a wand of Scorching Ray is outside the budget of a 3rd level character.

Well, that's really the relevant issue with my Invisible Ninja.

An invisible attacker is still invisible to creatures with Scent. The Ape might know where I am, but I still deny the ape its Dex Mod to AC. I still get the 50% Miss Chance from Total Concealment. The Survivability of this character is still very high.

That initial finding of a hiding place would take a full round, and that artificially creates a problem for your scenario, but your scenario also artificially takes only 3 rounds, and like I said spamming Vanishing Trick6 for 3 rounds is quite doable.

The 4500gp wand of Scorching Ray is outside the budget, but Wand of Finger of Cold might not be, but that greatly reduces the amount of Damage at level 3.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
The 4500gp wand of Scorching Ray is outside the budget, but Wand of Finger of Cold might not be, but that greatly reduces the amount of Damage at level 3.

Which is kind of the point of the contest, no?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
An invisible attacker is still invisible to creatures with Scent. The Ape might know where I am, but I still deny the ape its Dex Mod to AC. I still get the 50% Miss Chance from Total Concealment.

Until you break invisibility by attacking. Then you're relying on a bluff check vs your opponent's perception, with "the normal modifiers for convincing a creature of a falsehood". And if your opponent saw you disappear, knows you're within 30 ft, and nothing nearby is capable of shooting beams of fire then that bluff penalty is pretty high.

So if you want to use False Attacker then you must succeed on a bluff check in the mid 30's at the very least. Which is very unlikely at lv 3. You could solely rely on the Vanishing Trick, but that would last you just three rounds per day, and it would disappear whenever you attack. Leaving you vulnerable until you activate Vanishing Trick again.


ok, I made a subdual damage build for round 2. It's not quite as much "damage" overall compared to my other build, but the full round attack is vicious.

Some notes about the build. Serial Killer lets hidden strike count as sneak attack for purposes of feat pre-reqs and abilities that modify sneak attack. This means that I have the requisite 3d6 sneak attack for Sap Master. It also means that vicious claws change the 1d4 hidden strike into a 1d8 hidden strike when I'm flanking an enemy. The peacock is a small animal companion allowing me to flank the enemy. The merciful property allows me to take full advantage of sap master with my Slashing/Bludgeoning claws.

Knockout Sneak Attacker

Stats: (20 PB) Value Cost
Strength 8 -2
Dexterity 20 17
Constitution 14 5
Intelligence 10 0
Wisdom 10 2
Charisma 10 -2
Race: Catfolk
Racial Traits: Cat’s Claws
Traits: House of Green Mothers Pupil, Adopted-> Tusked
Class: Brawler(1), U Rogue(1), Vigilante(1), U Rogue(2)
Archetype(s): Snakebite Striker(Brawler), Serial Killer(Vigilante)
Rogue Talent: Vicious Claws(4th)
Feats: Sap Adept(1st), Sap Master(3rd), Familiar Bond(5th)
Familiar: Peacock (male peafowl)
Bonus Feats Improved Unarmed Strike(1st), Weapon Finesse[Claws](2nd)

Wealth: 7,901 / 10,500

Gear: Amulet of mighty fists[merciful](4,000), +1 Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes(3,000), Whetbone(1 sp), Wild-bloodx6 (600), potion of Hide from animalsx6(300)

Attack Bonus: Character(1st attack): +3 (BAB) +5 (Dex)+2(flnk)+2(invs)+1(BW) = +13 of +16(80%)
Character(rest): +3 (BAB) +5 (Dex)+2(flnk) = +10 of +16(65%)
Peacock: +3 (BAB) +1 (Dex)+2(invs)= +6 of +16 (45%)

Fight Sequence:
Prebuff: Character and familiar each drink a wild blood conconction and hide from animals potion. Familiar Stands Next to the character.

Round 1: Peaock flys at enemy (fly 40), landing on the opposite side of the enemy. Peacock attacks with a talon at +6 (45%) for 1d3-2 dmg = 1 nonlethal. Character moves up and attacks once with claw +13 (80%) for 1d4(Wp)+5(Dex)+4d8(SA)+4(SapA)+4d8 (SapM)+1(BW)+1d6(AMF)+2(WB) = 66*(80%) = 52.8 nonlethal dmg

Round 2: Peacock flys at enemy (fly 40), provoking an AoO and landing on the opposite side of the enemy. Peacock attacks with a talon at +4 (45%) for 1d3-2 dmg = 1 nonlethal. Character Steps up and full attacks for with
Clawsx2 +13 (80%) & +10(65%) for 1d4(Wp)+5(Dex)+4d8(SA)+4(SapA)+4d8 (SapM)+1(BW)+1d6(AMF)+2(WB) = 66*(80%)+65*(65%) = 88.45 nonlethal dmg
Bite +10(65%) for 1d4(Wp)+4d8(SA)+4(SapA)+4d8 (SapM)+1d6(AMF)+2(WB) = 60*(65%) = 39 nonlehtal dmg

Round 3: Same as round 1

Total Damage = (1+52.8)+(1+52.8+42.25+39)+(1+52.8) = 242.65/3 = 80.9 nonlethal DPR


dmg for round 2 is off because the bite doesnt get d8 sneak dice so i lose approx 13 dmg. final dpr should be

Total Damage = (1+52.8)+(1+52.8+42.25+26)+(1+52.8) = 229.65/3 = 76.55 nonlethal DPR

also the peacock gets to do leathal dmg thanks the the wildblood concoction


Sap Master is a very efficient way to boost your damage, but I'm not quite sure how you manage to make them flat-footed in round 2 and 3.


Wonderstell wrote:
Sap Master is a very efficient way to boost your damage, but I'm not quite sure how you manage to make them flat-footed in round 2 and 3.

:/

During round 2 it should still be flat-footed thanks to the hide from animals potions. Unlike plain invisibility it conceals you from all of the animal's senses and lasts for 10 minutes. You are correct that it wouldn't be flatfooted in round 3 because of the ally it's already engaged with. So that would cut down on the damage for that round.

round 3 would be +13 (80%) for 1d4(Wp)+5(Dex)+4d8(SA)+4(SapA)+1(BW)+1d6(AMF)+2(WB) = 48*(80%) = 38.4 nonlethal dmg

Total Damage = (1+52.8)+(1+52.8+42.25+26)+(1+38.4) = 215.25/3 = 71.75 nonlethal DPR

Silly NPC "ally".


Hide from animals ends if a creature under the spell attacks any creature. It shouldn't be in effect on round 2, both KSA and their familiar attack in round 1.


avr wrote:
Hide from animals ends if a creature under the spell attacks any creature. It shouldn't be in effect on round 2, both KSA and their familiar attack in round 1.

true... ive been under the assumption that each "round" was a separate fight with its own buffing phase. Hence the 12 consumables i spent my budget on.


Wonderstell wrote:
avr wrote:
Also infinite damage is nice to have on your resume.
It really is.

You spellcasters and your flowery blarney. --If the dire ape drops dead if taking 46pts of damage to go from 30hp full-up to -16 Con, and the Wildrager dishes out 46.835 average, is he doing infinite damage too?

~ ~ ~

(Regardless, that was a quite awesome Color Spray build, one guaranteed to cheese off most GMs.)


lv 5 Seperatist Idealist Cleric of Rovagug

Edyeh Darkshadow, CE Gnome:
Abiliy Scores, 20 PB, 4th increase in Wis
Str 10, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15+1, Cha 16

Character Traits:
Armored Rider, +1 Trait

Cleric
1 Selective Channeling, Invoke Realm
3 Skill Focus (Knowledge)
5 Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) - Familiar

Items:
Heavyload Belt (2000)
Boots of the Cat (1000)
Exotic Saddle
Armor+Shield

====

Nightsteed - Shimmerwing Dragonfly Familiar, Mauler
Str 13, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9

Hefty Brute, Flyby Attack (B)

Light Load Carrying Capacity: 300 lbs
Heavyload Belt (constant Ant Haul)
Hefty Brute (counts as large for CC)

***

Invoke Realm (6 times/day):

By channeling the raw essence of the Dead Vault, prison of Rovagug, we are able to superimpose a portion of this demiplane over our location in a 20 ft radius.

This lasts 4 turns during which the normal alignment, gravity, and magic traits are suppressed and replaced with those of the Dead Vault. In this case everyone who isn't Chaotic Evil takes a penalty to all mental checks, and the normal gravity is replaced with Heavy Objective Directional gravity.

===

avr's challenge:
Round 1.
Edyeh readies an action to start channeling when the Cobra is within channel disance. Nightsteed moves away so that the Cobra must leave the tree to approach them, and then readies an action to fly away when everyone is 200 ft up in the air.

So when the Cobra approaches, gravity flips and becomes twice as strong. The Cobra starts 'falling' unless it succeeds on a DC 50 Climb check to 'catch yourself while falling' on the ground that now became the ceiling. After 200 ft (we can fall 1000 ft in the first round), Nightsteed starts flying and moves the gravity bubble away from the Cobra. The Cobra now starts falling in the right direction.

20d6 dmg.

Round 2.
I'm gonna assume the three Cobras are bouncing on top of the gravity bubble. Same as round 1, just let them 'fall' until the 200 ft marker and then make them fall for real.

20d6 dmg x3.

Round 3.
Selective channeling to prevent our ally from sharing the same fate, then repeat the falling maneuver.

20d6 dmg.

***

Contest DPR: 350/3

Invoke Realm and gravity shenanigans would be pretty hilarious to play. It's too bad Rovagug seems to be the only one with Objective Gravity unless you homebrew. But I guess it is thematically on point to smash things against the ground repeatedly as a worshiper of Rovagug.


Avr, is the snake challenge like the ape one in that the three rounds are not consecutive? Also, does the 20% concealment apply throughout, or only in the first one? Lastly, does the whole thing repeat later in the day? (I.e., two separate three-rounders.)


Slim Jim wrote:
Avr, is the snake challenge like the ape one in that the three rounds are not consecutive?

I'm not sure when people started getting the opposite impression, but the rounds are consecutive.

I believed this was understood since many builds have used actions to apply temporary buffs in the first round, which were ongoing for the whole three-round encounter.


I meant to provide a variation on Wonderstells' challenges; where not specified their rules, description & setup apply, including the repeat later in the day.

The 20% concealment is just in round 1.


The Underwater Combat rules are dicy with the Round 3 cobra enjoying full concealment. --Even if you have aquatic movement and/or Freedom of Movement, you still can't *see* the thing from the shore. (Practically speaking, the location of the snake shouldn't even be depicted on Avr's chart; there'd just be a surface ripple marking where it went in last round.)

You could stick your head underwater to try and spot it (assuming the water is even clear rather than tannin murk), but for all you know, the snake is right there waiting to AoO your dumb noggin with six inch fangs to pump your brain full of poison.


Shooting the underwater snake is dicey at best, but your ally is in the lake too jabbing away and splashing. There's more than a ripple to tell you where it is.


Quote:
"Legacy Weapon (Su): As a standard action, you can expend 1 point of mental focus and touch a weapon to grant it an enhancement bonus. The bonus is equal to 1 + 1 for every 6 occultist levels you possess (to a maximum of +4 at 18th level). Enhancement bonuses gained by this ability stack with those of the weapon, to a maximum of +5. You can also imbue the weapon with any one weapon special ability with an equivalent enhancement bonus less than or equal to your maximum bonus by reducing the granted enhancement bonus by the appropriate amount. The item must have an enhancement bonus of at least +1 (from the item itself or from legacy weapon) to gain a weapon special ability. In either case, these bonuses last for 1 minute."

Der...wut? Gobbledegook much?

Some time ago, somewhere else, I opined that prudent GMs ought strike off their otherwise "everything is allowed" player access list anything with the word "Occult" in its title, and I stand by it.

(But I digress... Continue the snake slaughter; I'll have my own up in a bit.)


I disagree, the Occultist is my new favourite class.

I do think Legacy weapon is probably a little OP though, maybe edit that a little ... although if this thread has shown anything it's that there are better things out there.

I did post upthread a Magus-2/Occultist-1 who can use Arcane Pool and Legacy Weapon to get a +1 Bane weapon, but it takes a standard action to come oline (which hurts in a DPR thread), and honestly it wasn't really competetive with a lot of the builds here. I'm sure someone could do a little more with it than I did.


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Honestly it's just Bane being too good.
There are plenty of "temporary weapon enhancement bonus" abilities in the game, such as Paladin's Divine Bond, but they are all given a restricted list of special abilities that they can grant in place of the bonus.
As far as I'm aware only Legacy Weapon and Warrior Spirit breaks this trend, which is why they're both seen as busted. Remove Bane and they're pretty much equal in power to other such abilities since almost no special weapon abilities are worth it.


Wonderstell wrote:
Honestly it's just Bane being too good.

<eyebrow lift> Sacred Geometry came out of an Occult book.

_____________

Ping Pong: The Early Years (5th-level Emperor Cobra Challenge)

STR: 16 (human: 17,16,13,12,7,7 20pt array)
DEX+ 19
CON: 12 or 13
INT: 7
WIS: 13 or 12
CHA: 7

traits: Accelerated Drinker, Bestial Wrath
01 Wild Child1 [Companion][Flexibility][Cunning], Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes
02 Id Rager1 [rage][emotion:Anger:Power Attack]
03 Primal Companion Hunter1 [Evolution Pool:2], Paired Opportunists
04 Primal Companion Hunter2 [Outflank], DEX>20
05 Primal Companion Hunter3 [Hunter’s Tactics*][Pack Flanking], Broken Wing Gambit
*Auto-share: Outflank, Pack Flanking, Broken Wing Gambit, Paired Opportunists

Animal Companion (4th level): Axe Beak
Large stats: STR18+1+1*, DEX15+1, CON16, INT3, WIS11, CHA10
Huge stats with belt and activated dire collar: STR22, DEX16(+2-2)
Feats (2): Combat Reflexes, Power Attack
Primal Transformation evolution pool: 2
(*Bumped STR twice since neither companion feat requires INT3.)

Rider gear: Scabbard of Vigor (1800gp), MW fauchard(164gp), Opalescent White Pyramid (1500gp; cracked:fauchard), scroll Greensight (x2, 400gp), wand Lead Blades (caster level 2, 1500gp), potion Enlarge Person (50gp), whetstone (2cp)

Animal gear: Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2(4000gp), Dire Collar(1000gp), MW Tooth Caps* (200gp)

*What are “tooth caps”? Glad you asked. Because my GM is awesome, he agreed with me that it was ultra-lame that boars and rhinos can use tusk blades, but there’s nothing for other animal attack forms. So he said, “Sure! Make something sensible that works exactly the same for your critter at the same cost!” See? Martials can have nice things if they ask nicely. Aren’t home-games great?

Gold spent: 10464.02

~ ~ ~

Preliminary calculations....

Rider attack:
6 (Str 22 when enlarged and raging)
4 BAB
4 Pack Flanking
3 Scabbard of Vigor
-2 Power Attack
= +15
4 (Paired Opportunists AoA confirmation bonus)
2 (crit conformation bonus: Bestial Wrath)

Mount attack:
6 (Str 22 when enlarged)
3 BAB
4 Pack Flanking
1 MW
-2 Power Attack
= +12
4 (Paired Opportunists AoA confirmation bonus)

Pre-combat: sharpen tooth-caps with whetstone
Pre-combat buff 1: Greensight for both (30 min)
Pre-combat buff 2: Lead Blades (2 min)
Declared ready: activate Dire Collar upon site of enemies

With Greensight up, the large opponent 30’ away is seen in our sleep, and the readied action goes off. The PC is now an enlarged rider atop a huge mount. As a “long” huge creature, the bird has 20’ reach matching the reach of its large rider’s polearm. Sucks that we’re both losing one AoO/round gettin’ big, but whatevah. <Roll INIT; GM tells us we go first. Sweet.>

~ ~ ~

Round 1:
- Swift action: Primal Transformation evolution: Improved Damage (1 of 2)
- Move action: accelerated drink Enlarge Person potion
- (as part of a move): draw fauchard from harnessed Scabbard
- (as part of drawing a weapon): set Vigor bonus to +3 for 3 rounds
- Standard action: ready to attack opponent entering zone
- Free action: declare Broken Wing Gambit intentions
- Free action: rage
- Mount: similarly readies to attack / BWG.

Enemy turn:
...The snake is attacked by two readied-actions at 20’ distance, then eats a pile of AoOs generated by its continued movement, Broken Wing Gambit, Outflank-triggering crits, and twin Paired Opportunists reverberating off of everything.

Damage, rider: enlarged lead blades fauchard 3d8+18 (22str,2hPA,+3 enh) = 31.5
…with a +15, rider hits AC18 on 3s, hits AoOs on 2s, and confirms crits on 2s
…critical hit contribution is [.15][.95][31.5] = 4.48875 throughout encounter

Damage, mount: bite 3d6+14 = 24.5 + 19-20/x2 tooth-cap crit = 26.95 total base
…with a +12, mount hits AC18 on 6s, and hits AoOs (but not crits) on 2s;
…[.75][24.5] + [.1][.75][24.5] = 20.2125 = [.75][26.95] math check success!

Readied attack rider: [.9][31.5] + 4.48875 = 32.83875
Readied attack mount: [.75][26.95] = 20.2125

AoO chains will unspool in any of several ways; below is one example:

Raoo1 Rider’s enemy-movement AoO: [.95][31.5]+4.48875 = 34.41375
Maoo1 Mount’s Paired Opportunists AoO: [.95][26.95] = 25.6025
Raoo2 Rider’s Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375
Maoo2 Mount’s enemy-movement AoO: 25.6025
Raoo3 Rider’s 2nd Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375
Maoo3 Mount’s 2nd Paired Opportunists AoO: 25.6025
Raoo4 Rider’s Broken Wing Gambit AoO: 34.41375
Maoo4 Mount’s 3rd Paired Opportunists AoO: 25.6025
Raoo5 Rider’s 3rd Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375

(In nominal reality, this cobra would be obliterated pulp before getting close enough to attack and trigger Broken Wing Gambit, but DPR contests such as these operate inside a Schrödinger's box.)

32.83875 + 20.2125 + 172.06875 + 102.41 + 1(whetstone)

Round 1 Total: 328.53

Like Pearl the Fat Vampire, that snake shouldn’t have moved.

~ ~ ~

Round 2
…The rider atop his huge mount has a +1 higher ground bonus versus merely large opponents, and now hits on 2s. The positions of everyone in the Round 2 diagram are going to be different to accommodate the mount’s huge footprint, and there is the potential of a DPR "bust" depending on the layout. But let's give our boys the benefit of the doubt, because that yields bigger numbers! The huge bird just 5' to the lower-right, because it's huge, and can, because those logs and boulders don't bother it at all as they crunch under its pile-driver feet. Alternatively, the GM allows humongous creatures humongous steps because realism, and we'd simply 10ft-step "south". In any event, the snake in the top-center is now either out of range 20ft to the "north", or it is 15' away and can't 5' to its lower-right due to terrain which is too difficult for it -- so either way that particular snake will have to move through threatened zones on its turn to get within 10'.

Rider: attacks snake in upper-left; paints BWG buddy.
Mount: attacks snake on far-left; paints BWG buddy.
(Then the three snakes attack, each triggering various AoO sequences.)

Rider’s .9>.95 difference is 1.575; + 327.53 (Round 1 sans whetstone)

Round 2 Total: 329.105

~ ~ ~

Round 3
…I saw you trying to get away, you rotten snake, but there’s no escape in a swamp that shallow.

Swift action: Primal Transformation evolution: Swim (2 of 2)
Move action: Martial Flexibility >>> Aquatic Combatant

Mount: moves up to 20' from the snake, straddling the floundering ally in the water and providing them with AoO-denying soft-cover (they're basically under the belly of a huge wading creature). Rider yells at them to withdraw between its tree-trunk legs back to shore. The fight now play out similar to Round 1: the cobra is attacked twice, then eats a pile of fissioning AoOs when moves across threatened squares to its only reachable targets.

Round 3 Total: 329.105

Grand Total: 986.74

~ ~ ~

Ping: ”Dang it! Almost a thou. And no Savage Technologists were roided in the making of.”

Ally: ”I’m really feeling overshadowed here. I mean, over and beyond your giant monster side-kick shading out the sun.”

Ping: "Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Rufus? I did more than the bird."

Rufus: "Oh is that was that thing the size of a house is? Its top half is above the clouds; I can't really tell."

Ping: "So anyway, what's a tasty halfling morsel like you doing in the water with a 200 lbs snake? You're essentially an hors d'oeuvre."

Rufus: "I'm going to retrain into a sorcerer."

Ping: "That's the spirit. Will you learn Haste?"


Slim Jim wrote:
*What are “tooth caps”? Glad you asked.

Allowed.

Slim Jim wrote:
Declared ready: activate Dire Collar upon site of enemies

Okay, so if your GM lets you walk around with readied actions outside of combat then more power to you. But you can't take a readied action if you're flat-footed, and even if you weren't that would mess up the initiative so that you'd lose your first turn.

In short, you do not gain an extra standard action to buff your mount.

Slim Jim wrote:
The PC is now an enlarged rider atop a huge mount. As a “long” huge creature, the bird has 20’ reach matching the reach of its large rider’s polearm.

Huge "long" creatures have 15' feat reach, so you'd need to use your Evolution pool to apply the Reach Evolution if you want 20' reach.

===

Round 1 attacks:
Readied attack rider: [.9][31.5] + 4.48875 = 32.83875
Readied attack mount: [.75][26.95] = 20.2125

AoO chains will unspool in any of several ways; below is one example:

Raoo1 Rider’s enemy-movement AoO: [.95][31.5]+4.48875 = 34.41375
Maoo1 Mount’s Paired Opportunists AoO: [.95][26.95] = 25.6025
Raoo2 Rider’s Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375
Maoo2 Mount’s enemy-movement AoO: 25.6025
Raoo3 Rider’s 2nd Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375
Maoo3 Mount’s 2nd Paired Opportunists AoO: 25.6025
Raoo4 Rider’s Broken Wing Gambit AoO: 34.41375
Maoo4 Mount’s 3rd Paired Opportunists AoO: 25.6025
Raoo5 Rider’s 3rd Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375

So if I've counted correctly there should be two readied attacks, two AoOs from the Cobra approaching, and two AoOs from the Cobra attacking.
Then there's also a pair of AoOs if you manage to crit, but those theoretical AoOs doesn't seem to be be in here. So why is there 9 AoOs in round 1?


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Paired Opportunist has a clause that:

Paired Opportunist wrote:
This does not allow you to take more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action.

The maximum AoOs from that you can get out of any triggering action is two, one for you and one for your mount. This means that for movement through both your and your mount's threatened squares, there are no additional AoOs gains (you each already got an AoO for the triggering action).

As a result, the AoO chain looks like:
Raoo1 Rider’s enemy-movement AoO: [.95][31.5]+4.48875 = 34.41375
Maoo1 Mount’s Paired Opportunists AoO: [.95][26.95] = 25.6025
Raoo2 Rider’s Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375 (You already made an attack of opportunity in response to the associated move action)
Maoo2 Mount’s enemy-movement AoO: 25.6025 (Your mount already made an attack of opportunity in response to the associated move action)
Raoo3 Rider’s 2nd Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375 (You already made an attack of opportunity in response to the associated move action)
Maoo3 Mount’s 2nd Paired Opportunists AoO: 25.6025 (Your mount already made an attack of opportunity in response to the associated move action)
Raoo4 Rider’s Broken Wing Gambit AoO: 34.41375
Maoo4 Mount’s 3rd Paired Opportunists AoO: 25.6025
Raoo5 Rider’s 3rd Paired Opportunists AoO: 34.41375 (You already made an attack of opportunity in response to Broken Wing Gambit)
-----

You may want to also math out the chances for AoO chains via Outflank. The critical hits triggering AoOs are each separate triggers for Paired Opportunists, so it has the potential to yield many additional AoOs. However, with 15% chance on your attacks, it might not amount to much.
-----

Other things that seem to be dubious assertions:

Slim Jim wrote:

- Move action: accelerated drink Enlarge Person potion

- (as part of a move): draw fauchard from harnessed Scabbard

While the language is somewhat loose, the consensus is that you can only combine drawing a weapon as part of a move action to move - not as part of move actions to do other stuff.

Slim Jim wrote:
Declared ready: activate Dire Collar upon site of enemies

Isn't this a 3rd pre-combat buff if you get to do it outside of initiative?


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I just saw that Idealist Cleric build from earlier. I think it's up to significant GM interpretation in which direction the gravity of the Dead Vault points. Since the plane's "ground" is on the inside of the sphere, the gravity is effectively down towards the ground. The build requires the GM to sign on to the idea that the Heavy Directional gravity would map to UP on the material plane.

Otherwise, what an awesome and unexpected build!


It is up to GM interpretation since it isn't explicitly stated, agreed.
But I'd say the most reasonable ruling is "outwards"/up since it's described as "gravity pulls outward from the center" and the Dead Vault is "nestled within [Golarion]’s molten core". So if you're standing on Golarion it should be pretty easy to locate where the center is, although it gets weird on other planes.

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