Mortal Usher: dedicated wrappings


Rules Questions


Hello everyone,

I have a pretty focused question.
Can you enchant a scarf (for example, a bladed scarf) and then select it as your dedicated wrapping, letting the bonuses stack?

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Dedicated Wrappings (Su)
At 7th level, a mortal usher gains the ability to designate any cloak, scarf, robe, or shirt in his possession as his wrappings, granting it unique powers in addition to any abilities or enchantments it may already have. The wrappings grant the mortal usher a natural armor bonus equal to half his class level as long as it is in his possession, and they can be used as a magic whip that can be wielded even if the mortal usher’s hands are full. When used as a whip, the wrappings gain an enhancement bonus equal to the mortal usher’s class level. These bonuses can be added to the whip to increase its enhancement bonus to a maximum of +5 (minimum +1), or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: brilliant energy, disruption (this supersedes the normal requirement that a disruption weapon must be a bludgeoning weapon), flaming, flaming burst, frost, holy, icy burst, shock, shocking burst, unholy, or vorpal. Adding these properties reduces the enhancement bonus granted by this ability by an amount equal to the property’s cost.

The mortal usher can change how these properties and enhancements are assigned, or designate a new item as his wrappings, after an 8-hour rest.
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Example:
Base: bladed scarf +1, defending
Mortal usher level 7 --> +4, holy, flaming

Result: bladed scarf +5, defending, holy, flaming

Thank you


The way it's worded it sounds like a bladed scarf is a viable option. However, you would either be able to wield it as a bladed scarf or as a whip. When used as a whip it would not benefit from the bladed scarf's enchantments and vise versa. Even if you did get the bladed scarfs bonuses, they would overlap not stack.

So, in the case of

Base: bladed scarf +1, defending
Mortal usher level 7 --> +4, holy, flaming

The resulting weapon would be

Result: bladed scarf +4, defending, holy, flaming


Quote:
Mortal usher level 7 --> +4, holy, flaming

This is incorrect.

Quote:
These bonuses can be added to the whip to increase its enhancement bonus to a maximum of +5 (minimum +1), or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: brilliant energy, disruption (this supersedes the normal requirement that a disruption weapon must be a bludgeoning weapon), flaming, flaming burst, frost, holy, icy burst, shock, shocking burst, unholy, or vorpal. Adding these properties reduces the enhancement bonus granted by this ability by an amount equal to the property’s cost.

You can only get up to +5 for enhancement/ability total on it from mortal usher.


willuwontu wrote:


You can only get up to +5 for enhancement/ability total on it from mortal usher.

Seems pretty strange to say "add your class" and it's capped to 5... but you take this feature at level 7 so you over-cap the moment you gain it.

It would make more sense to say "the wrappings gain an enhancement bonus of +5. Divide between enhancement and special properties" or something like that.

I'm pretty sure this just follows the general rule that weapons have a maximum enhancement bonus of +5 (plus +5 equivalent of special properties). So no +6 longsword can exist, but a +5 flaming longsword is fine.


willuwontu wrote:
Quote:
Mortal usher level 7 --> +4, holy, flaming

This is incorrect.

Quote:
These bonuses can be added to the whip to increase its enhancement bonus to a maximum of +5 (minimum +1), or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: brilliant energy, disruption (this supersedes the normal requirement that a disruption weapon must be a bludgeoning weapon), flaming, flaming burst, frost, holy, icy burst, shock, shocking burst, unholy, or vorpal. Adding these properties reduces the enhancement bonus granted by this ability by an amount equal to the property’s cost.
You can only get up to +5 for enhancement/ability total on it from mortal usher.

it reads to me like it works the same as the all the other similar abilities: the maximum flat enhancement bonus is +5, but the total enhancement can be up to +10, using a combination of flat enhancement bonus and enchantments bought with bonus reduction.

Silver Crusade

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Quote:
These bonuses can be added to the whip to increase its enhancement bonus to a maximum of +5 (minimum +1), or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties...

The cap applies only when using the ability to increase the scarf enhancement bonus, which is usually 0 clothing, not when choosing the weapon property option. Therefore, a 7th level Mortal Usher has a pool of 7 enhancement bonus points. When applying them to increase the whip enhancement bonus to hit and damage, it caps to 5. Or, they can be used to add, say, Brilliant Energy (+4) and Holy (+2) weapon properties. The enhancement bonus pool then is reduced to 7-(4+2)=1, which can be added to the whip as enhancement bonus.

The problem with the Bladed Scarf is that, if you want to use it together with this ability, it mechanically counts as a different weapon, specifically a whip, which in my opinion implies that:

1) you cannot use preexisting weapon enhancements anymore. I would rule it similarly to the case of a magical weapon being used as an improvised one: a +1 Longspear being used as an improvised mace to attack adjacent enemies loses the +1 enhancement bonus, despite being physically the same weapon. Similarly, a +1 Defending Bladed Scarf used as a whip loses the scarf-related enhancements, as it is being used as a whip.

2, which is the actual problem) it will be utterly useless against pretty much any opponent, unless you have the Whip Mastery feat, since there is no Deadly properties among those listed. I would argue that the Brilliant Energy property would allow you to damage enemies with manufactured armors, as the whip would simply ignore them. Similarly, I would allow the use of the Disruption ability on undeads that get hit, even if they do not get harmed. The two abilities, put together on the whip, nicely fit the concept of the class: as soon as you get this ability, you can get a +1 Brilliant Energy, Disruptive whip, which is virtually able to slay both living and undead creatures, but not constructs, which is exactly what the class is about.

Therefore, my answer would be:

Base: bladed scarf +1, defending
Mortal usher level 7 --> whip +4, holy, flaming, unable to harm anyone with armor bonus (unless you apply the Brilliant Energy/Disruptive property) or 3+ natural armor


Gray Warden wrote:
Quote:
These bonuses can be added to the whip to increase its enhancement bonus to a maximum of +5 (minimum +1), or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties...

The cap applies only when using the ability to increase the scarf enhancement bonus, which is usually 0 clothing, not when choosing the weapon property option. Therefore, a 7th level Mortal Usher has a pool of 7 enhancement bonus points. When applying them to increase the whip enhancement bonus to hit and damage, it caps to 5. Or, they can be used to add, say, Brilliant Energy (+4) and Holy (+2) weapon properties. The enhancement bonus pool then is reduced to 7-(4+2)=1, which can be added to the whip as enhancement bonus.

The problem with the Bladed Scarf is that, if you want to use it together with this ability, it mechanically counts as a different weapon, specifically a whip, which in my opinion implies that:

1) you cannot use preexisting weapon enhancements anymore. I would rule it similarly to the case of a magical weapon being used as an improvised one: a +1 Longspear being used as an improvised mace to attack adjacent enemies loses the +1 enhancement bonus, despite being physically the same weapon. Similarly, a +1 Defending Bladed Scarf used as a whip loses the scarf-related enhancements, as it is being used as a whip.

2, which is the actual problem) it will be utterly useless against pretty much any opponent, unless you have the Whip Mastery feat, since there is no Deadly properties among those listed. I would argue that the Brilliant Energy property would allow you to damage enemies with manufactured armors, as the whip would simply ignore them. Similarly, I would allow the use of the Disruption ability on undeads that get hit, even if they do not get harmed. The two abilities, put together on the whip, nicely fit the concept of the class: as soon as you get this ability, you can get a +1 Brilliant Energy, Disruptive whip, which is virtually able to slay...

thank you for the clear and detailed answer. I can agree with what you said (uselessness of the whip included!)

Would insted these bonuses combine with power ups from other features?
I'm trying to find a use for this whip I'm probably never gonna use to actually attack (since the main base weapon will be better - almost everything is better than whips!) Like the advanced weapon training

Warrior Spirit (Su) The fighter can forge a spiritual bond with a weapon that belongs to the associated weapon group, allowing him to unlock the weapon’s potential. Each day, he designates one such weapon and gains a number of points of spiritual energy equal to 1 + his weapon training bonus. While wielding this weapon, he can spend 1 point of spiritual energy to grant the weapon an enhancement bonus equal to his weapon training bonus. Enhancement bonuses gained by this advanced weapon training option stack with those of the weapon, to a maximum of +5. The fighter can also imbue the weapon with any one weapon special ability with an equivalent enhancement bonus less than or equal to his maximum bonus by reducing the granted enhancement bonus by the amount of the equivalent enhancement bonus. The item must have an enhancement bonus of at least +1 (from the item itself or from warrior spirit) to gain a weapon special ability. In either case, these bonuses last for 1 minute.

Silver Crusade

Sure. Once you are using it as a +N, X whip, I don't see why you couln'd add extra weapon properties and enhancements via the proper class abilities. In the case of Warrior Spirit, just remember to choose your main weapon within the flails weapon group, or you would not be able to apply it to the whip.

I believe, however, that Whip Mastery would be enough to make it usable.


just wondering..:
"... and they can be used as a magic whip that can be wielded even if the mortal usher’s hands are full...."

how does this work with two handed weapon or two weapon fighting? is it an off hand attack? main hand? no hand?
im guessing if using a two handed weapon it would go into off hand weapon penalties. but since it's not wielded in the off hand should it even take these penalties?

was going to build a 'spawn' vigilante. the fact the 'Whip of Vengeance' talent they can take give the improved format at level 6, and you can't join the prestige class before level 6 seem to work just right.

Silver Crusade

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zza ni wrote:

just wondering..:

"... and they can be used as a magic whip that can be wielded even if the mortal usher’s hands are full...."

how does this work with two handed weapon or two weapon fighting? is it an off hand attack? main hand? no hand?
im guessing if using a two handed weapon it would go into off hand weapon penalties. but since it's not wielded in the off hand should it even take these penalties?

was going to build a 'spawn' vigilante. the fact the 'Whip of Vengeance' talent they can take give the improved format at level 6, and you can't join the prestige class before level 6 seem to work just right.

If you use it alone, it counts as a normal attack. If you use it to attack on the same round of your main weapon, all attacks would incur in normal TWF penalties: -6 on your main weapon, -10 on the whip, or -4/-4 with the TWF feat.

I do not think you can add the whip to an already existing TWF routine, as it would be Multiweapon Fighting purview, which explicitly requires multiple limbs.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Gray Warden has the right of it on pretty much all counts.


I'm confused, and not sure I properly understood how the ability works when enhancing the weapon.

Can you do a +5 Holy Whip? (So +2 in properties, and +5 from the (7-2) remaining points) Or do you need to cap at +5, properties included?

I'm sorry, you covered the issue, but the wording really confuses me in your answer, I think I need an actual example to understand this ability limit.


Sir Stabalot wrote:

I'm confused, and not sure I properly understood how the ability works when enhancing the weapon.

Can you do a +5 Holy Whip? (So +2 in properties, and +5 from the (7-2) remaining points) Or do you need to cap at +5, properties included?

I'm sorry, you covered the issue, but the wording really confuses me in your answer, I think I need an actual example to understand this ability limit.

you can do a +5 Holy Whip. You get +7 worth of bonuses and/or abilities that can be applied to the weapon. But you aren't allowed to have more than a +5 for the bonus side.


LordKailas wrote:


you can do a +5 Holy Whip. You get +7 worth of bonuses and/or abilities that can be applied to the weapon. But you aren't allowed to have more than a +5 for the bonus side.

Ok, thanks for the help. Wanted to be sure I got that right, since I like the PrC and may attempt it at some point.

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