Racial levels and gestalt classes


Advice

Scarab Sages

So purely theoretical situation looming for advice on how people think best to handle it. Lets say you have someone playing a race with level value that gives hd, skills, etc and your playing in a game where gestalt is house ruled as allowed (say you only have a few players). Which would you say is a better way to handle it?

1) Normal Gestalt where you get best of 2 classes + racial hd.

2) Racial levels as gestalt e.g. class/troll till you get to your racial value then class 1/class 2.

3) Something else, if so what?

So for example a solar might be solar 18/fighter 19/monk 1.

Yes i know broken, dont allow, bad wrong fun but if you were doing it which option would you take?


Let's look at a lower level example. 19th level anything is after the game's broken anyway.

Faerie dragon HD 3 / sorcerer 3 // rogue 3 compared to human sorcerer 6 // rogue 6. The human has more sneak attack and other rogue abilities, the faerie dragon has an absurd amount of special abilities, more hit points, more BAB and better saves.

Faerie dragon HD 3 / sorcerer 3 // rogue 6 compared to human sorcerer 6 // rogue 6. You'd be an idiot to play the human.

Of those two it has to be option 1 IMO.


IMO, #2 (Racial levels as gestalt) would usually(see below) be the best. You should have the rules of character creation established before the game begins.

Random thoughts;
- what book/source are the racial levels from, homebrew or Savage Species(for example)?
- how many pc's want powerful races, all, some or 1?
- some gestalt combos are better than others. A well built optimized gestalt will likely beat a poorly built gestalt even with a moderately powerful race for free.

Scarab Sages

Ttue but thats he case for anything if you build it well.

So racial levels as a gestalt option seem the preferred choice.


Adding class levels to monsters comes with a +4,+4,+2,+2,+0,-2 stat adjustment dished out at your discretion.

This, combined with gestalt is going to get stupid, fast.

Think about a Quickling with 16 levels of UnChained Scout Ninja and 20 levels of Paladin... Charge/Sneak Attack/Smite, it's dead, let's go home.

Quickling stats:
8,24,13,15,15,14
Adding class levels adjustment:
10,28,15,13,15,18
After 20 levels/5 stat bumps:
10,30,16,13,15,20

This is without any gear, and it's just a martial build. Lol.

You start playing with flying monsters and adding spellcasting classes to it, you are looking at a bunch of game-breaking beasts.

Gestalt is already pretty gnarly, and I think it might prove a little too much with monsters and their abilities thrown into the mix.

It's extremely easy to get full BAB, all good saves, and 9th level spellcasting with gestalt... enter at your own risk.

Scarab Sages

Well that was the race/class mix. So if it got x ability from race and x from class you took the best.

Though i dont see how your getting that high a stat adjustment?

I believe dragons are already a flying monstwr with sorcerer levels or am i the only one who plays the. That way?


Sure, plenty of monsters have player class levels, and many others have cast-like-whatever abilities... you can usually backtrack their stats to see the proper adjustments... not always, but:

Look at the rules for advancing monsters...

When you add player class levels to a monster, they are automatically awarded a certain array of stat adjustments.

You can't really ignore this, as it's part of the balancing act of making monsters scary for the players.

However, WITH this absolutely normal adjustment in mind WITH gestalt, you can get absolutely absurd combinations.

Were you adding class levels without the proper adjustments?

Did you read the monster advancement rules at all?

Are you ignoring these rules specifically for your gestalt characters?

If you are willing to forget the monster advancement rules, then why not just make up your own monsters from scratch... they do whatever you want them to, without a care for previous guidelines.


Senko wrote:
So racial levels as a gestalt option seem the preferred choice.

You've done it again Senko. Two opinions were voiced by two people, you decided one of them was the consensus. I assume this is motivated reasoning?

Scarab Sages

avr wrote:
Senko wrote:
So racial levels as a gestalt option seem the preferred choice.
You've done it again Senko. Two opinions were voiced by two people, you decided one of them was the consensus. I assume this is motivated reasoning?

I think im missing something. At the time i made that comment you said...

Of those two it has to be option 1 IMO. Referring to

Faerie dragon HD 3 / sorcerer 3 // rogue 3 compared to human sorcerer 6 // rogue 6. The human has more sneak attack and other rogue abilities, the faerie dragon has an absurd amount of special abilities, more hit points, more BAB and better saves.

Which is racial levels as gestalt and Valendil said...

IMO, #2 (Racial levels as gestalt) would usually(see below) be the best. You should have the rules of character creation established before the game begins.

So unless you meant my option 1 not the 1st optiom you posted or i misunderstand what you'd typed which is possible as im snatching moments to post and read during work. The first dissenting opinion i saw here is Voodist which was due to the potential breaking it allows.

EDIT
Speaking of which

VoodistMonk wrote:

Sure, plenty of monsters have player class levels, and many others have cast-like-whatever abilities... you can usually backtrack their stats to see the proper adjustments... not always, but:

Look at the rules for advancing monsters...

When you add player class levels to a monster, they are automatically awarded a certain array of stat adjustments.

You can't really ignore this, as it's part of the balancing act of making monsters scary for the players.

However, WITH this absolutely normal adjustment in mind WITH gestalt, you can get absolutely absurd combinations.

Were you adding class levels without the proper adjustments?

Did you read the monster advancement rules at all?

Are you ignoring these rules specifically for your gestalt characters?

If you are willing to forget the monster advancement rules, then why not just make up your own monsters from scratch... they do whatever you want them to, without a care for previous guidelines.

No i havent read them, this is the first ive evwm hward of them. Mind telling me which book their in please so i can have a look at how they work.

EDIT 2
Mind reminding me which was the other assumed consensus as i remember meaning to go back and check where id gone wrong but now i cant find it.


Archives of Nethys:
http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html

Scarab Sages

VoodistMonk wrote:

Archives of Nethys:

http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html

Thanks I'll take a look over them when i get a chsnce.

EDIT
Ah yes they're racial then class wheras i was thinking racial/class. Id either need to remove the pevel ups for class or the ability array boost and five them the class if i went the way i was thinking. Ill play around with this.

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