Are 1-2 levels of monk worth it?


Advice


So I am playing a campaign of hell's rebels and I am a virtuous bravo paladin of Sarenrae. Would 1 level of scaled fist monk worth it for cha to AC and an extra attack and combat reflexes. (I would have to make my scimitar a versatile weapon). If so would a 2nd level in monk be worth it for evasion and deflect arrows?

Any thoughts and advice are welcome.


So generally the AC bonus is not worth the dip at all. It's nice, but usually not as nice as actual armour. You can do it for roleplay reasons, but from a mechanical standpoint it makes un-armoured combat OK, but not better.

The other aspects might be more appealing. Bonus feats, Evasion and Flurry are all things that could be worthwhile. You have to decide what you're getting and what you're losing and see if it balances out.

The bonus feats are really only worth it if you couldn't get them. Paladins tend to be pretty feat-shy, so it could be worth it, but the 2nd level of monk is probably not worth it for the feat alone. If you really want Evasion then the feat is a nice bonus, but if you're mostly doing it for deflect arrows I probably wouldn't bother (you can just take that feat later if you think it's worth it).

Also: You could make your scimitar Versatile, or take the Crusader's Flurry feat.


Versatile doesn’t allow flurry; flurry looks for the monk special weapon quality not the monk weapon group.


It's also arguable that Dervish Dance (which I'm assuming you're going for) stacks with Flurry of Blows. It definitely doesn't stack with Slashing Grace.


@MrCharisma, I don't actually lose that much AC going scaled fist seeing as before I was looking at Celestial Armour (+9 for 22,500gp) but in comparison I would get bracers of armour +4 (24,000gp) and with my charisma of 16 I will be sitting at +7, and since I wish to get charisma anyways it should be easier to get more AC. And if I have the feats I could get unhindering shield to improve AC more.

For bonus feats I was looking at Combat Reflexes, which I need, and Deflect Arrows, which is extra. You are right that Evasion and Flurry are the big draws here.

@Lelomenia, Good catch on that, I had not realized that weapon group and weapon quality were different for some reason.

@JiaYou, Yes I am going dervish dance, we are actually level 3 so I have it already. It also makes sense that it would work with Flurry.


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MrCharisma wrote:
So generally the AC bonus is not worth the dip at all. It's nice, but usually not as nice as actual armour. You can do it for roleplay reasons, but from a mechanical standpoint it makes un-armoured combat OK, but not better.

It somewhat depends on what kind of access you will have to mage armor. Many monks run around with wands of it and have the party mage cast it on them, if they don’t UMD it themselves. Or maybe you can get a pearl of power with mage armor for your wizard to use on you. Or maybe one of your party members is just really helpful.

And at the really high levels, bracers of armor can be nice, but it takes them a long time to beat a simple mage armor.


@Melkiador, that is a good idea, I will have to make sure we have someone that can use the wand first.


Mage Armour is good, but Bracers of Armour compete with Bracers of the Merciful Knight which I think will do more for you (especially since you can wear actual armour).

Note: Evasion allows light armour, even for monks. The only things you'd lose by wearing armour are flurry and the AC bonus (and if you're wearing armour you'll have a higher AC).

So you could take 2 monk levels and continue to wear armour. You'd get a bunch of bonus feats and Evasion (and continue to have great saves). The cost would be that you'd get your other Paladin abilities late, and you'd lose 1 BAB (unless you can be an unchained Scaled fist ... I think you can but I forget).


Whether it's worth it depends on what you want and what you are trying to accomplish. dipping 2 levels in Monk is worth it sometimes.

Silver Crusade

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I would build two versions of your character to about 8th lvl — one with the monk dip and one without — and then compare them.


MrCharisma wrote:
The only things you'd lose by wearing armour are flurry and the AC bonus (and if you're wearing armour you'll have a higher AC).

That really depends on how much Dex they have... since they said they were looking at Celestial Armor, it stands to reason that they have a fairly high Dex Mod... with the +7 Cha they stated, even just mage armor alone would equate to a higher AC bonus unarmored than they would get from Celestial Armor, regardless of their Dex mod even.

Let’s do some math here: assuming an easy +3 Dex

+5 Full Plate: 9 AC +5 Enh +0 Dex = +14 AC
Celestial Armor: 6 AC +3 Enh +3 Dex = +12 AC (+17 AC at max +8 Dex)
Scaled Fist AC: 7 Cha +3 Dex = +10 AC
SF + Mage Armor: 4 AC +7 Cha +3 Dex = +14 AC
SF + Bracers of Armor +8: 8 AC +7 Cha +3 Dex = +18 AC

The fact of the matter is, unarmored AC can actually out preform any actual armor. It is far easier to reach untouchable levels of AC with an unarmored build than with actual armor.


@PCScipio I will do that, and also maybe a 12th level comparison.

@Chell Raighn, close, the +7 was with the +4 bracers and charisma of 16. That being said I plan on pumping my charisma up quite a bit. By level 8 I am hoping for a dex of +6 and charisma of +5. I do think you are right that unarmoured will be able to out perform armoured in the long run. Especially if I can get some stat tomes crafted for me as i think I will max out the dex on celestial armour.


Spyboy wrote:

@MrCharisma, I don't actually lose that much AC going scaled fist seeing as before I was looking at Celestial Armour (+9 for 22,500gp) but in comparison I would get bracers of armour +4 (24,000gp) and with my charisma of 16 I will be sitting at +7, and since I wish to get charisma anyways it should be easier to get more AC. And if I have the feats I could get unhindering shield to improve AC more.

For bonus feats I was looking at Combat Reflexes, which I need, and Deflect Arrows, which is extra. You are right that Evasion and Flurry are the big draws here.

@Lelomenia, Good catch on that, I had not realized that weapon group and weapon quality were different for some reason.

@JiaYou, Yes I am going dervish dance, we are actually level 3 so I have it already. It also makes sense that it would work with Flurry.

Don't bother with the bracers. Get a wand of mage armor instead. Unless absolutely no one in your party can activate that wand.


thorin001 wrote:
Spyboy wrote:

@MrCharisma, I don't actually lose that much AC going scaled fist seeing as before I was looking at Celestial Armour (+9 for 22,500gp) but in comparison I would get bracers of armour +4 (24,000gp) and with my charisma of 16 I will be sitting at +7, and since I wish to get charisma anyways it should be easier to get more AC. And if I have the feats I could get unhindering shield to improve AC more.

For bonus feats I was looking at Combat Reflexes, which I need, and Deflect Arrows, which is extra. You are right that Evasion and Flurry are the big draws here.

@Lelomenia, Good catch on that, I had not realized that weapon group and weapon quality were different for some reason.

@JiaYou, Yes I am going dervish dance, we are actually level 3 so I have it already. It also makes sense that it would work with Flurry.

Don't bother with the bracers. Get a wand of mage armor instead. Unless absolutely no one in your party can activate that wand.

Unfortunately our party consists of a forgepriest warpreist, a vigilante, and a ranger with an archetype that gives up spells. So I don't think there is anyone that can cast it. :/

To help with armour as well, I am looking at getting a buckler and the unencumbered shield feat.


Spyboy wrote:
Any thoughts and advice are welcome.

The problem with any "bouncy" (AC secured by means other than armor) build is that it suddenly acquires an ass the size of a barn the split-second it's flat-footed.

...and Perception and Sense Motive are wisdom-based skills, wisdom is the paladin's classic dump-stat, and paladins just don't have the skills points anyway.

So: How are you going to get Uncanny Dodge?


Monk AC works even when flat footed. Relying on Dexterity does usually have that weakness, but being dexterity-based means you'll often have a good initiative bonus, so getting hit while flat footed won't happen super often. Sure it will happen eventually, but unless your GM really loves super deadly ambushes, it's not much of a concern.

At level 11, the bravo does get the evasive deed for uncanny dodge. Of course dipping other classes could slow down this acquisition.


Yes uncanny dodge will be a bit delayed, around level 13. However AC is flat out better for both regular and touch, and flat footed is about equal. This happens around level 8.

So thanks for all the advice and thoughts guys. I will be going with 2 levels of monk in my build. Probably levels 5 and 6.

On another note, what are peoples' thoughts about the unhindering shield feat?


Melkiador wrote:
Relying on Dexterity does usually have that weakness, but being dexterity-based means you'll often have a good initiative bonus, so getting hit while flat footed won't happen super often.

Even if you find yourself usually going first, it doesn't help you if your poor, skill-point-starved dumb brain is usually confused be tricky-move opponents.

~ ~ ~

Adding two levels of Urban Bloodrager to the stack has plenty of benefits beyond providing Uncanny Dodge.


Spyboy wrote:


On another note, what are peoples' thoughts about the unhindering shield feat?

It’s certainly a good way to inch out an extra +2~7 to AC. If you feel inclined to, you can even delve into the upsetting style feat chain to make some extra use of that buckler by gaining the ability to shield bash, apply penalties to foes and even force foes to trigger an AoO if they miss by 5 or more. Pair that with Crusader’s Flurry and a Scimitar and you’re in business.

Silver Crusade

Slim Jim wrote:
Adding two levels of Urban Bloodrager to the stack has plenty of benefits beyond providing Uncanny Dodge.

Of course. Two levels of Urban Bloodrager on a Paladin already asking if it is worth multiclassing Monk. Makes sense, 100% on point with what the OP asked and the flavour of the character.

Again, Cha bonus to AC applies even when flat-footed, in which case Cha + Mage Armour + high Initiative coming from high Dex + the fact of being a d10 Paladin being able to take a hit will be enough for the job, so literally no-one cares about Uncanny Dodge in this case.

Anyhow, back to the OP: if you go 2 levels into Scaled Fist Monk (which I think could be a good idea on a spell-less Paladin), you might be interested also in Crane Style to pump up you AC even further. If you do, remember to put 3 points in Acrobatics (for an extra +1 AC), and make your Scimitar blocking via Tactically Adapted weapon modification (for another extra +1 AC). At the cost of one feat (Dodge and Improved Unarmed Strike come for free with the first Monk level) and -2 to hit (which shouldn't be a problem on a full-BAB class with Smite), you can get +4 AC, or +5 if we count in Dodge.

If you show us your build at the current level, we can help you fit the necessary feats.


Urban Bloodrager could add many benefits, but it is not something that fits the theme of this character.

Upsetting shield style looks pretty cool, but feat intensive and I am already pretty feat starved.

My flat footed AC with armour going straight paladin, is pretty much the same as with the two levels of monk at level 8, so I don't think uncanny dodge becomes that much more needed. Evasion is more useful for me as i have a good reflex save and taking no damage from aoe spells is pretty good.

My build so far is virtuous bravo paladin 4,
STR 12
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 15

feats: weapon focus, dervish dance, weapon finesse (sort of), skill focus intimidate (I took the three skill focus feats from human)

Favoured Class bonuses have been going into resistances combined with the trait that ups each kind of resistance by two. I also have the omen trait.

Don't have the character sheet in front of me but I think everything else is fill in the blanks. I do not have a headband or belt yet as our crafter doesn't have craft wondrous item till next level.


Gray Warden wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Adding two levels of Urban Bloodrager to the stack has plenty of benefits beyond providing Uncanny Dodge.
Of course. Two levels of Urban Bloodrager on a Paladin (is) already asking if it is worth multiclassing Monk. Makes sense, 100% on point with what the OP asked and the flavour of the character.
There are two ways of looking at a multiclass paladin: 1) "I want as many paladin levels as possible, because Smite bonus-damage is the glittering stars in my eyes!", and 2) "I want the most durable, resilient, mid-level character possible, because campaigns always end before capstone levels anyway." --The triple-class build satisfies the latter; e.g., a well-built Blood2/Monk2/PaladinX would have near zero consumable expenses in PFS.
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Again, Cha bonus to AC applies even when flat-footed, in which case Cha + Mage Armour + high Initiative coming from high Dex + the fact of being a d10 Paladin being able to take a hit will be enough for the job, so literally no-one cares about Uncanny Dodge in this case.
Cha-to-AC only applies to one's Smite-buddy. (A tricky adversary bamboozling you is usually not one being smote at that particular moment.)
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Anyhow, back to the OP: if you go 2 levels into Scaled Fist Monk (which I think could be a good idea on a spell-less Paladin), you might be interested also in Crane Style to pump up you AC even further. If you do, remember to put 3 points in Acrobatics (for an extra +1 AC), and make your Scimitar blocking via Tactically Adapted weapon modification (for another extra +1 AC). At the cost of one feat (Dodge and Improved Unarmed Strike come for free with the first Monk level) and -2 to hit (which shouldn't be a problem on a full-BAB class with Smite), you can get +4 AC, or +5 if we count in Dodge.

If you show us your build at the current level, we can help you fit the necessary feats.

If I were to rebuild my old high-Dex PFS halfling rogue/paladin, he'd have Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy, and Mounted Combat at low level. Rogue's Finesse w/Agile took care of melee, PBS+Rapid took care of ranged combat, and the mount took care of mobility. His UMD was through the roof, and he had a pile of wands. --Despite having a ton of halfling synergy with a rogue's skill-set and sneak-attack, Evasion and hitpoints for days, he still got chewed up like a rag-doll because he was frequently tasked with rescuing teammates by getting between a monster and its meal. He had top-tier Perception, and was still finding himself flat-footed half the time at the beginning of combat. Monsters purpose-built for Stealth got the drop on the party all the time. And then Paizo had the craptacular idea of Dirty Trick, and released a dozen other flavors of "Now you're flat-footed!" widgets, and it became a royal clusterf#@& as rocket-tag descended from high-level into early mid-level..

Doing it over, I'd have taken rogue up to 4th (after pally2) to have Uncanny Dodge squared away by 6th. Similarly, a Blood2/Monk2/Pal2 has Uncanny at or before 6th, and can go straight pally from there.

Silver Crusade

Slim Jim wrote:
Cha-to-AC only applies to one's Smite-buddy. (A tricky adversary bamboozling you is usually not one being smote at that particular moment.)

I'm talking about the Scaled Fist's Cha to AC, of course, not that coming from smite, which, again, applies to flat footed AC. This is the third time this has been said to you in this thread.

And the problem with Bloodrager dip is not the mechanics, is the fact that you keep suggesting it (and/or Savage Technologist) almost every time someone asks for advice on a melee build. What the hell, the OP is talking about a Paladin, and he's already not sure about the Monk dip, keep to the question rather than adding even more unasked dips.


Yowza. We might need to step away from this thread for a bit and cool off.

The original poster already isn't feeling bloodrager for this build, but in this case, dipping for Uncanny Dodge feels bad, because you will eventually get it from the paladin archetype too. I hate to gain redundant abilities.


@Slim Jim, while I appreciate your suggestions I will not be taking any class levels other then paladin and monk, uncanny dodge is good, but as mentioned. Duplicate abilities feel bad. Also I have mentioned that I am going virtuous bravo which loses the CHA to AC on smite.

Thank you very much for the help Gray Warden and Melkiador. This post has helped me decide where my build is headed.


Melkiador wrote:
Yowza. We might need to step away from this thread for a bit and cool off.

While his Nurse Ratched bedside-manner leaves much to be desired, he is correct: Sacred Fist subs Cha in for monk Wis, and the monk's normal wisdom bonus to AC works while flatfooted. Therefore a bare-naked-ass armorless build works, and Uncanny Dodge is not needed (provided that charisma is maximized relatively to the dexterity contribution, which interferes somewhat with initiative). Apparently some monks are too pretty to hit while snoozing. (Throw SF into a halfling or azata-blooded assimar, and it is very quickly pulling in +10 or more from dex+cha at relative modest levels once 8k is salted away for a belt and a headband.)

A minor annoyance is that Sacred Fist is a chained monk archetype (though many GMs will hand-wave it through for unchained). Flurrying with waveblades (without need an opalescent white pyramid for proficiency) while not being saddled with BAB-1 in non-flurry circumstances is desirable.

Spyboy wrote:
@Slim Jim, while I appreciate your suggestions I will not be taking any class levels other then paladin and monk, uncanny dodge is good, but as mentioned. Duplicate abilities feel bad.

What are your race, stats, and level?

* Why the interest in a scimitar over a rapier or other finessable weapon? They're both d6 18-20 threat-weapons, and I'm not seeing you angling for anything that requires a slashing weapon. (This is why you might ask your GM if you can take Sacred Fist as an unchained monk archetype: waveblade is a light d6 18-20 slashing and piercing weapon, so you'd get the best of both scimitar and rapier worlds.)

The OP wrote:
If so would a 2nd level in monk be worth it for evasion and deflect arrows?

Mods and APs tend to be blast-heavy, so I'd say yes (and particularly so if your paladin is not a Fey Foundling/Greater Mercy LoH-spammer with hundreds of daily on-demand spare hitpoints). The nice thing about Deflect Arrows is that it scales with level (because it doesn't care how awesome the high-up enemy's arrows are getting, e.g., a Manyshot). The downside is that it's a useless feat whenever archery isn't a factor.


@Slim Jim, Sacred fist has already been approved by my GM for use with unchained monk.

I posted my stats and race up a half dozen or so posts.

My main reason for scimitar is flavour wise as i am a worshiper of sarenrae. It fits the AP very well and while I wish to build a strong character, I don't wish a character of near God status. This is the GMs first time running a game. Secondly dervish dance is the only dex to damage feat that works with flurry.

You are right about deflect arrows being situational but it was either that or dodge, which might actually be better thinking about it.


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Advanced Deeds (Ex): At 11th level, a virtuous bravo gains the following swashbuckler deeds: bleeding wound, evasive, subtle blade, superior feint, swashbuckler’s grace, and targeted strike.

This ability replaces aura of justice.
——————
Evasive (Ex) (Advanced Class Guide pg. 59): At 11th level, while a swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point, she gains the benefits of the evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge rogue class features. She uses her swashbuckler level as her rogue level for improved uncanny dodge.


Spyboy wrote:
@Slim Jim, Sacred fist has already been approved by my GM for use with unchained monk.
<thumbs-up emoji> I'd definitely dip the monk level(s) then, if only for waveblade proficiency + flurrying in a dex-minmaxing build. (You weren't as enamored of that as the Sacred Fist's charisma antics, but perhaps I can talk you into the former as well.)
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I posted my stats and race up a half dozen or so posts.
Do you recall your second trait? How much spare cash is saved up? (I note that charisma is rather low for a paladin.)
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My main reason for scimitar is flavour wise as i am a worshiper of sarenrae. It fits the AP very well and while I wish to build a strong character, I don't wish a character of near God status.
You will never be god-status as a martial (you're at best a god's herald). Just wait until 7th, when the casters in your party really begin stretching their legs to show everyone who's boss.
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This is the GMs first time running a game. Secondly dervish dance is the only dex to damage feat that works with flurry.
The scimitar's non-light status robs it of Piranha Strike applicability, and it not being a monk weapon denies flurry applicability. There are work-arounds, as others have noted, but they're going to roast feat slots and/or enhancement bonuses. Solution: grab a waveblade, call is a "scimitar" (for flavor) as they're mechanically nearly identical, apply the Agile enhancement, and then save *two* feats (both Dervish Dance and the suggested Crusader's Flurry, neither of which would then be needed, and can then retrain...perhaps to Piranha Strike + ?).
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You are right about deflect arrows being situational but it was either that or dodge, which might actually be better thinking about it.

Sacred Fist adds a few options to the monk's feat list that you might be interested in, particularly Dragon Style. (Even if you don't bother getting an Agile AoMF to exploit the 1.5x unarmed strike effect, the ability to charge through allies as well as avoid difficult terrain is frequently useful, and increasingly so at higher levels where difficult terrain is more prevalent.)


So apparently I can't read, for some reason i thought evasive only gave uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge... just 1 level of monk is needed now.

While the waveblade is cool, I am sticking with the scimitar for flavour purposes. Yes I know that requires two extra feats two work.

I have four traits, unscathed, omen, foul brand, and ex-asmodean.

We use a party fund system and buy/make stuff for those with less, currently I have a bit more as I have been retraining to get max hit points every level.

Another way is to use a scimitar a put effortless lace on it.

Dragon style could definitely be useful, I will see if I can get that into my build.

Silver Crusade

If you were allowed a slight reshuffle of your base stats, this is how I would build it:

STR 13
DEX 16+2
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14

1 VB Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus [Intimidate]
2 VB
3 VB Dervish Dance
4 VB
5 SF Dodge, Crane Style
6 SF Combat Reflexes
7 VB Power Attack
8 VB Skill Focus [Perception, or anything else]
9 VB Cornugon Smash
10 VB
11 VB Hurtful
VB = Virtuous Bravo, SF = Scaled Fist

You could get Hurtful earlier, as soon as you get Cornugon Smash, with a Training enhancement on your weapon, or a Fighter dip for the extra feat. Otherwise, if you prefer a more offensive build, you can skip Dodge, Crane Style and the 2nd Monk level, and get Power Attack/Cornugon Smash/Hurtful by level 5/7/9 respectively.

If you go Dodge/Crane Style, remember to:
- put 3 ranks in Acrobatics (+1 AC)
- make your scimitar blocking (+1 AC)

Total fighting defensively malus to hit/AC bonus = -2/+5 (+6 including Dodge)


Spyboy wrote:
While the waveblade is cool, I am sticking with the scimitar for flavour purposes. Yes I know that requires two extra feats two work.

You may find yourself acutely desiring the inapplicable Piranha Strike once your weapon is upgraded to Keen, and you're scoring very frequent critical threats that'll double Piranha's numeric contribution. (15-20 threat yields 49% chance of a threat per flurry-for-two-attacks per round. The Anatomist trait therefore becomes equivalent to Weapon Focus applied to half of your swings, the important ones! Carry a 750gp wand of Unerring Weapon, and ready-action to UMD it at the outbreak of combat.)

It's a little silly, but one thing you could do is make a waveblade Glamered, at which point the thing is completely identical to a scimitar in appearance and functionality. --At least then you're only blowing a bit of money rather than precious feat slots. (Another benefit to Glamered is that it's a static monetary cost rather than taking up an enhancement level, meaning it won't jack the price of other enhancements. Then take its 4,000gp price-tag and subtract 2,500gp because you won't need Effortless Lace anymore to make it a light weapon. So, you're only spending 1,500gp to enjoy a d6 18-20/x2 "scimitar" that your monk's Flurry and your Piranha Strike feat won't balk at.)


@Gray Warden, unfortunately I can't shift stats. Otherwise that build looks promising. I was originally planning on going with an itimitadte theme but I kept finding other feats that I wanted that are into my feat allotment.

@Slim Jim, Effortless Lace let's me use piranha strike so I don't need to go through too many hoops for that feat to work for me.

Silver Crusade

Spyboy wrote:
@Gray Warden, unfortunately I can't shift stats. Otherwise that build looks promising. I was originally planning on going with an itimitadte theme but I kept finding other feats that I wanted that are into my feat allotment.

Then you can simply buy a +2 Str Ioun Stone to qualify for Power Attack. You should be able to afford one (8000gp) by level 7. It is a bit of a shame having already invested ranks and Skill Focus[Intimidate], having decent Charisma, and not getting Cornugon Smash/Hurtful. Alternatively, you can go the nonlethal damage route with Enforcer. Serenrae has the Merciful Scimitar trait that lets you deal nonlethal damage at no penalty, and going Enforcer rather than Cornugon Smash relieves you from the need of picking Power Attack (since you are going 1-handed, it is not that much of a loss; the same applies to Piranha Strike). You would still need it for Hurtful, though, but at least you can get to use your ranks and Skill Focus in combat to debuff enemies. Maybe a Training[Enforcer] weapon enhancement after you get your +1 Keen scimitar?

However I now realise I completely forgot about Crursauder's Flurry (maybe because I thought Virtuous Bravo lost Channel Energy?), so it probably makes sense to prioritise that.


Spyboy wrote:
@Slim Jim, Effortless Lace let's me use piranha strike so I don't need to go through too many hoops for that feat to work for me.

Indeed it does, but have you ever wondered why Effortless Lace is so darn cheap for what it does? (I mean, besides being adorning you weapon with a flashing-neon "Sunder bait!" sign?)

...it's because Dispel is a thing, and Effortless Lace is keyed on Shrink Item, a CL5 3rd-level spell.

(Dispel doesn't happen every given Sunday, and it's hit-or-miss which of your buffs gets knocked out, but when it does, you will remember when, where, and how your pooch got screwed. Str-dumped TWFs will especially cry like little girls when their finesse go dormant, and their damage drops from heaptons to d8-1.)


Slim Jim wrote:
A minor annoyance is that Sacred Fist is a chained monk archetype (though many GMs will hand-wave it through for unchained).

Not sure when the topic changes from the Scaled Fist monk archetype to the Sacred Fist warpriest archetype (going to assume a typo on your part here)... but the Scaled Fist was made for both normal monk and unchained. No DM handwaving is ever required for this one.

Silver Crusade

Slim Jim wrote:
Spyboy wrote:
@Slim Jim, Effortless Lace let's me use piranha strike so I don't need to go through too many hoops for that feat to work for me.

Indeed it does, but have you ever wondered why Effortless Lace is so darn cheap for what it does? (I mean, besides being adorning you weapon with a flashing-neon "Sunder bait!" sign?)

...it's because Dispel is a thing, and Effortless Lace is keyed on Shrink Item, a CL5 3rd-level spell.

(Dispel doesn't happen every given Sunday, and it's hit-or-miss which of your buffs gets knocked out, but when it does, you will remember when, where, and how your pooch got screwed. Str-dumped TWFs will especially cry like little girls when their finesse go dormant, and their damage drops from heaptons to d8-1.)

This is getting ridiculous. First of all, this is not how dispel on items work. It targets the item CL, not the spell stated in its prerequisites (which has nothing to do with the item apart from its creation), and the CL for an effortless lace is 15, so beat DC 11+15 to dispel. If one wanted to destroy the lace, they would dispel the weapon, which in turns causes the lace to crumble. And even then, who wastes an action and a dispel to give the opponent -2 to damage, but also +1 to hit (xBAB/4)? On this note, you know what else can be dispelled or sundered? The +1/Agile weapon on the build that you suggested, which has much worse effect than losing access to Piranha Strike:

Slim Jim wrote:
The scimitar's non-light status robs it of Piranha Strike applicability, and it not being a monk weapon denies flurry applicability. There are work-arounds, as others have noted, but they're going to roast feat slots and/or enhancement bonuses. Solution: grab a waveblade, call is a "scimitar" (for flavor) as they're mechanically nearly identical, apply the Agile enhancement

Even your own character would have an Agile weapon:

Slim Jim wrote:
If I were to rebuild my old high-Dex PFS halfling rogue/paladin, he'd have Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy, and Mounted Combat at low level. Rogue's Finesse w/Agile took care of melee

Why weren't you worrying about that on your characters and, all of a sudden, sundering/dispelling items have become a priority worth of considering right now? I really do not understand why you are try-harding so much on the OP not enjoying their character and the choices they made.


Eternal mysteries: How is it that I can be wrong about this (and I will so stipulate):

Gray Warden wrote:
First of all, this is not how dispel on items work. It targets the item CL, not the spell stated in its prerequisites...
..., and have you unload all over me, but all the while, you, for your part, did not notice that....
Quote:
If one wanted to destroy the lace, they would dispel the weapon, which in turns causes the lace to crumble...

*Nobody* has said *anything* about *destroying* it (that being something Dispel can't do anyway)?

~ ~ ~

"Why, yes, waiter; I would like the side of red-herring along with the visceral opprobrium!"

Silver Crusade

Slim Jim wrote:
*Nobody* has said *anything* about *destroying* it (that being something Dispel can't do anyway)?

Have you even read how the item works?

Effortless Lace wrote:
Effects that would dispel the magic of the weapon or cause the weapon to gain the broken condition (such as sundering) destroy the ribbon as well.

Why do you keep spreading misinformation, using pointless sarcastic language, while not even once addressing the questions the OP (any OP) asks when starting any thread? Do you realise the majority of your interventions on these boards are pretty much spam?


If you get a Wand Key Ring, along with your 16 Cha, you only need 6 ranks in UMB for automatic activation of the wand you have the key ring for.

If you dip Ranger, UMB becomes a class skill and so you need only 3 ranks for the automatic wand. You also get extra feats from the Ranger. You also get access to the Ranger spell list for using wands and scrolls.

/cevah


Btw Scaled Fist is not the only Monk Archetype that gives Cha to AC.

Nornkit gives Cha to AC, let's you act in the surprise round, and unarmed attacks count as silver to bypass resistances; But it loses Stunning Fist and the 1st lv bonus feat. Has a thematic connection to the Fey lords

Water Dancer gives Cha to AC twice (one as a level capped dodge bonus) along with a ranged attack (touch or regular); But it loses Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, and the bonus feat. Obviously its water based which conflicts Sarenrae's fire, but I dont think she would mind.

***********
If you do think about using Ranger, than the Sword Devil archetype gives at lv 4 Cha to AC just like the Monk archetypes; So that could be dropped unless you want Flurry and Unarmed Strikes.

It also gives Dex to Attack with a 1-h Slashing Weapon (say a Scimitar), a limited use untyped bonus to Atk and Dmg (stacks with Smite but smaller progression), and the ability to give your team an Atk buff. The penalty are: the loss of Favored Enemy & Terrain, no animal companion and no spells.

Just something to think about.


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But Scaled Fist is the only monk archetype that both gives Cha to AC and can be applied to the Unchained Monk (for no loss of BAB).

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