Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Challenge Prompt: You've made many mistakes, but never anything quite like this in your 20 levels of adventuring. You now find yourself, alone, in Treerazer's Tanglebriar, with the nascent demon lord fast approaching. Your only hope? To hide until he passes by.
How do you succeed?
Dimensional space antics aside.
Disappearance then Meld into stone buys 10 minutes. Hopefully you already had remove aroma and fly going so you can't be tracked to your rock.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nice. Is there anything actually indicating that a flying creature can't be tracked?
|
4 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Cast maze on yourself, you get about 10 minutes of safety meditating in a maze before you drop out.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I'll take the bait and try it without magic.
A very, very sneaky goblin rogue, legendary in stealth, and the class feats: Sneak savant, blank slate, and then hidden paragon. If you had the skill feat terrain stalker, perhaps dedication in wizard or arcane sorcerer and the right spell items, and Treerazor didn't know exactly where to come look for you to begin with, I think you might have a chance.
Ravingdork wrote: Nice. Is there anything actually indicating that a flying creature can't be tracked? Not directly, but if they're flying there's no foot tracks. This leaves smell (remove aroma) and incidentals like broken branches and such. Significantly increasing the DC to track. Thing is only tracks suddenly stopping at a rock would be reason to investigate further, a broken twig, or bent branch just means they passed that way and may have continued further.
edit: iirc you can cast personal spells in this version of Meld Into Stone and you have some awareness of what's outside. Which means as long as you have remaining spell slots you could stay in and undetected by recasting the spells before they expired.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Levi wrote: Disappearance, then meld into stone buys 10 minutes. Hopefully you already had remove aroma and fly going so you can't be tracked to your rock. Congratulations. You've only succeeded in frustrating Treerazer, but not keeping him from finding you (or rather, the absence of you). But can your Stealth beat his Perception DC? If not, he knows you're nearby and can take Seek actions to find you despite your wards (and they'll very likely succeed).
Paradozen wrote: Cast maze on yourself, you get about 10 minutes of safety meditating in a maze before you drop out. I think that might actually work. Good job! You live to see another day.
That being said, the challenge was to hide, not to leave and come back. So you've failed the challenge over a technicality. :P
Unicore wrote: I'll take the bait and try it without magic.
A very, very sneaky goblin rogue, legendary in stealth, and the class feats: Sneak savant, blank slate, and then hidden paragon. If you had the skill feat terrain stalker, perhaps dedication in wizard or arcane sorcerer and the right spell items, and Treerazor didn't know exactly where to come look for you to begin with, I think you might have a chance.
Wow. That's a seriously cool build. I'm not sure what Dedication or spell items will do for you. You may want to elaborate on that point.
So you have as much as a +35 Stealth modifier before circumstance bonuses, item bonuses, and status bonuses (20 level, 8 legendary, 7 Dex). Your best possible result when sneaking is 55, which fails against Treerazer's Perception DC. However, due to Sneak Savant, you turn that failure into a success. You also get a success if you were sneaking with cover or greater cover. If you roll an 11 or lower without cover, you critically fail, and you're snack food. Miscellaneous bonuses from outside sources increase your odds, but you're still going to need a fair bit of luck.
Even on a success though, you're undetected, which means Treerazer knows you're...somewhere. It's likely only a matter of time before he finds your location with repeated uses of the Seek action (though he won't be able to observe you thanks to blank slate and hidden paragon, so you remain hidden even if he finds your location). Unless you started the encounter unnoticed, I think maybe you're still going to end up as snack food. Although, with a lot of luck, I suppose you might possibly be able to delay his finding you long enough to escape the Tanglebriar. Maybe.
I'm reminded of Bilbo's discourse with Smaug.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I've actually set this one up before.
Outwit Ranger with Rogue Dedication for Sneak Savant. Assume you have Foil Senses, Swift Sneak, and Legendary Sneak. If you want, add on Sorcerer multiclass (Divine) or something that lets you pick up Heroism 6th, and the foresight to pick up a Greater Quicksilver Mutagen beforehand.
Obviously, you will have 24 Dex for +7 mod.
So. Level 20 + 7 Dex + 8 legendary + 4 item + 4 circumstance vs. Treerazer, for a total of +43. Treerazer has a Perception DC of 56, so on anything higher than a 2 on the die, you succeed thanks to Sneak Savant. If it gets dicey, you can cast heroism a bunch of times with the spell slots you have (if you were heavily built for it, up to 6 times), so that you only fail on a natural 1.
From there, you run as fast as you can with Swift Sneak and your 45 ft+ movement speed. If you're an elf, you can put that up to 55 feet. Even if you mess up once (10% chance), zigzag away and Hide -> Sneak again. Odds are against you failing twice.
Ravingdork wrote: Levi wrote: Disappearance, then meld into stone buys 10 minutes. Hopefully you already had remove aroma and fly going so you can't be tracked to your rock. Congratulations. You've only succeeded in frustrating Treerazer, but not keeping him from finding you (or rather, the absence of you). But can your Stealth beat his Perception DC? If not, he knows you're nearby and can take Seek actions to find you despite your wards (and they'll very likely succeed). How does TR know you're nearby?
Seek can be used to notice the absence of something to foil effects like disappearance, but with meld into stone there's no absence to be felt. You become one with the rock, there's no gap in TR's perception. Meld itself would almost be enough except that we're looking at something with supernatural senses.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Treerazer has trueseeing at a nasty high level. It makes magical deception very difficult for the caster. The goblin can probably milk an extra +3 from item bonus, +3 from status bonus and maybe a +2 from a circumstance bonus. The dedication is so that she can get these bonuses off of scrolls that she would then have the right list for.
If it's 20th lvl character and I can just build it for this situation and it follows the starting characters at 20th lvl for items rules. I'd just kill him.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Nyhme wrote: If it's 20th lvl character and I can just build it for this situation and it follows the starting characters at 20th lvl for items rules. I'd just kill him. TBH I'm curious to know how that could be done. Treerazor is a level 25 creature, which puts him at beyond an extreme threat encounter for even a full party.
Ravingdork wrote: Challenge Prompt: You've made many mistakes, but never anything quite like this in your 20 levels of adventuring. You now find yourself, alone, in Treerazer's Tanglebriar, with the nascent demon lord fast approaching. Your only hope? To hide until he passes by.
How do you succeed?
I'd take advantage of this
Nyhme wrote: If it's 20th lvl character and I can just build it for this situation and it follows the starting characters at 20th lvl for items rules. I'd just kill him. in order to sneak away from the place, while the battle is ongoing.
Perpdepog wrote: Nyhme wrote: If it's 20th lvl character and I can just build it for this situation and it follows the starting characters at 20th lvl for items rules. I'd just kill him. TBH I'm curious to know how that could be done. Treerazor is a level 25 creature, which puts him at beyond an extreme threat encounter for even a full party. This is a long explanation but sure. First rogue talent blank slate unless the spell or effect is 10th lvl it doesn't work. So treerazer's 8th lvl trueseeing is not an issue. So if under 4th lvl invisibility and sneaking. As long as you don't fall into his seek range you're safe. With his perception if he does a seek he will definitely find you. Obviously we have swift sneak, foil senses and legendary sneak.
There are two ways to do one with hafling sling staff. If you go this route 8tg lvl grab ranger dedication. Other is composit longbow in which you take archer for the proficiency. Bow is slightly less damage but no reload to work around.
Now since we can safely sneak around him we stay 80 feet away. I'm assuming in this scenario he will be seek move seek move repeat. We grabbed investigator with multitalented and the inspired strategim feat. When we have him in our sights scroll of sculpt sound to disguise any spells he could hear. I'm the target not him so no. Drink a quicksilver mutagen and a quickness potion. If the staff pop your hunters brooch. Cover your spellstrike 9 ammunition in cold iron blanch. Delay so your initiative is after his. And start spamming inspired strategim. If you get anything other than a 19 or 20 you move to position for next round. If you get a 19 or 20 you then cast 9th lvl searing light from a wand 2 actions. Free action drop wand. Third action load sling quickened action strike to land a crit, free action bloodseeker beak, reaction time domain spell delay consequences. He doesn't know he's been hit. Next round he moves seeks moves. Reload 1 action 8th lvl prepared searing light into ammunition quicked action strike. This attack is at +26prof, +4 item(quicksilver mutagen) +3 status(9th lvl heroism) +7 dexterity. Total +40 versus 52 AC(the minus 2 is from flat footed. So need a 12 to hit or 19/20 crit. Here is the scary part but there is halfing luck, guiding luck for a reroll.
Damage 1st hit
Axiomatic greater fire rune holy deadly d12 crit. 28+3d6+9(strength and weapon specialization)+d4(beak)+4d6 sneak. Low average 62 crit 124 plus d12 average 6 total 130 plus 20 weakness good.
9th lvl searing light 34d6+4d6(magical trickster on a spell attacks spell) average 133 crit 266(resistance to fire weakness good make it a wash)
Total 416
2nd hit
4d12+9+2d6(no fire rune since it's not a crit)+4d6 sneak average 56 plus 20 weakness good.
8th lvl searing light 30d6+4d6(sneak) average 119
Total 195
Grand total 611 damage happening before he knows I'm there. If rng was way below average and he has a few health the 2d10 persistent fire ignores fire resistance.
Bow comes to low average of 587
Shortbow and eldritch archer instead of archer/ranger. which is what I kind of lean to is 583 average
This is all the lower average and still well over his 550 health.
Shortbow is super easy to set up. After strategim works move to position, wand, quickened strike, time domain. Then cast, quickened strike if average damage was terrible both bow builds have 1 action for a battle prayer which is pretty much a guaranteed success for another 3d6+20 damage. Or if I missed stride away and hidden paragon. Which with how terrified treerazor is with permanent death. After taking over 75% of his health in one shot. My bet will be time stop 9 actions to fly away.
Oh and since the challenge is to hide. After he's dead I move up to him and close his eyes while I'm tucking blackaxe in a bag.
Reworked it with a shortbow and taking eldritch archer at 8th. Eldritch archer does nothing but I need it for the Tarrasque kill the next day.
Also edit for above. Someone could say the keen rune doesn't work for searing light. I totally agree so you could drop the keen rune add an ice rune and wait for a 20. Just hopefully you get one in the 40ish rounds you have to wait for the 20. Slightly more damage but takes longer.
First, I appreciate the dedication, and it'll be interesting to see how viable it'll be in whatever Treerazer AP we see (and it's been implied for awhile, though Paizo likely needs to get all the steps developed and then balance it vs. the Whispering Way issues/arc.)
In the Tanglebriar, I wouldn't count on having 80' space between you.
Nor having that much time to line up a shot since RD implies TR's looking for you. If he isn't, then what is he doing? I suppose he/it could be engaged in a Ritual, but otherwise he's likely keeping busy and you'll need to use actions to Stride or possibly even Seek (Stealth +40 vs. Perception +36-ish).
Delay Consequence has a 30' range.
Also, there's the meta of having perfect information (like what level TR's True Seeing is at, not the demon-norm stuff).
Delaying to go after him seems unimportant since he'll always have the turn after you (with the ability to cast Time Stop). And if you're in position, it's risky to give him an opportunity to move out of position.
Again though, like the dedication. :)
Setting up the worst case scenario since it's trivial if outdoors.
Start combat somehow undetected not unnoticed. He cornered me in a dungeon that is conveniently sized for huge we will start with 30 feet between us.. Setting up I stride as far away as possible. 270 feat with 4 stride actions and speed of 60. He's confident in his skill at perception so seek action in the cone to 60 feet. He seeks strides seeks. This only covers 150 of the 270. I trick magic item and sculpt sound and stride once. 210 away. He strides seeks strides 90 feet away. I keep doing this till all my buffs are up then start spamming inspired strategim. Now say He knows I'm near and so does horrid wilting. I'm in aura range so a plant(no rogue is passing that fort save) and I get a crit fail. Average damage on 10th lvl horrid wilting 120. I was at 228 health from quicksilver mutagen now 108. Ouch but I'm OK. It's closing on 10 rounds and he is still stalking me through the tunnels and I get to a dead end. Ethereal jaunt go past him and use a couple rounds on the Ethereal plane to renew buffs. By then we are probably going the opposite direction. Eventually the 20 lands on inspired strategim and it all comes down to the d20 on the second round. But again that's not even death. If it missed both times. 3rd action perfect distraction. Stride out to 90. Now he time stops. Lines up to kill the decoy once time stop ends. Strike he realizes the fake and seeks, success and he strides into melee range. 2 step actions with elf step I'm out of range of attack of opportunity then 2 stride actions. Now he are back to stride seek stride with me spamming inspired strategim. That is unless he used the time stop to flee.
Castilliano wrote: First, I appreciate the dedication, and it'll be interesting to see how viable it'll be in whatever Treerazer AP we see (and it's been implied for awhile, though Paizo likely needs to get all the steps developed and then balance it vs. the Whispering Way issues/arc.)
In the Tanglebriar, I wouldn't count on having 80' space between you.
Nor having that much time to line up a shot since RD implies TR's looking for you. If he isn't, then what is he doing? I suppose he/it could be engaged in a Ritual, but otherwise he's likely keeping busy and you'll need to use actions to Stride or possibly even Seek (Stealth +40 vs. Perception +36-ish).
Delay Consequence has a 30' range.
Also, there's the meta of having perfect information (like what level TR's True Seeing is at, not the demon-norm stuff).
Delaying to go after him seems unimportant since he'll always have the turn after you (with the ability to cast Time Stop). And if you're in position, it's risky to give him an opportunity to move out of position.
Again though, like the dedication. :)
Tanglebriar isnt a problem since I have airwalk. And he is needing to spend actions for seeking.
30' range on delay consequences also not a problem. If he is doing 60' cone seek then get behind him with ethereal jaunt. If he is doing the 30'emanation on seek then just wait for a round of stride sneak stride.
But yes this does assume we are metagaming and know his entire statblock. But I do have it so he's legendary lore treerazor and legendary lore demons legendary in religion and divine guidance to say He prepped.
He won't be in a dungeon, unless it has vegetation for his abilities, especially Blackaxe's ability to eat trees for 250 h.p.
That's pretty major.
Where it will be is another question since we're talking a supra-genius intellect to imagine the lair with the godly wisdom (and regional resources) to follow through. One might be able to draw him out of his lair or ambush him, yet I think that'd be in a forest by default, one with heavy enough vegetation to be an issue (yet hopefully not enough of an issue to bump the difficulty even higher!).
I think the "Eventually the 20 lands" is already on the hopeful side because as I mentioned, he's either looking for you (shrinking the timer to get that 20) or not and likely moving (ticking off the clock on the timer/buffs).
And he moves fast, so it'd take all of one's actions to keep up.
(Unless shifting back to a better-case of him being occupied, yet not having assistants or a decoy of his own!)
If he's extremely hurt, he's not going to line up to kill the decoy, he'll line up to chop down a tree. And that's assuming he falls for the decoy given his intellect & the GM's interpretation.
Since Perfect Distraction works at 6th level (as Mislead) then TR's True Seeing works on the decoy (even if not on yourself/your Invisibility due to Blank Slate).
Nyhme wrote: Castilliano wrote: First, I appreciate the dedication, and it'll be interesting to see how viable it'll be in whatever Treerazer AP we see (and it's been implied for awhile, though Paizo likely needs to get all the steps developed and then balance it vs. the Whispering Way issues/arc.)
In the Tanglebriar, I wouldn't count on having 80' space between you.
Nor having that much time to line up a shot since RD implies TR's looking for you. If he isn't, then what is he doing? I suppose he/it could be engaged in a Ritual, but otherwise he's likely keeping busy and you'll need to use actions to Stride or possibly even Seek (Stealth +40 vs. Perception +36-ish).
Delay Consequence has a 30' range.
Also, there's the meta of having perfect information (like what level TR's True Seeing is at, not the demon-norm stuff).
Delaying to go after him seems unimportant since he'll always have the turn after you (with the ability to cast Time Stop). And if you're in position, it's risky to give him an opportunity to move out of position.
Again though, like the dedication. :)
Tanglebriar isnt a problem since I have airwalk. And he is needing to spend actions for seeking.
30' range on delay consequences also not a problem. If he is doing 60' cone seek then get behind him with ethereal jaunt. If he is doing the 30'emanation on seek then just wait for a round of stride sneak stride. You've misinterpreted the problem I'm raising with Tanglebriar. It's not the difficult terrain (many ways to bypass), it's the density of foliage hindering ranged attacks, including those from above via Air Walk.
(Not so much an issue if you're willing to move in closer as you seem to be adjusting the scenario to do, that was in reference to 80'.)
Also in that 80' instance, the 30' range on Delay Consequence was an issue because of how you'd first set up the scenario.
I do not think Ethereal Jaunt works well for alleviating that since you can only see 60'! Where would you be when casting that and how would you find TR? And you're sustaining while moving at half speed so it's not easy to move into his range safely (much because you do not know where he is!) and there's no way to determine which cone or emanation TR's going to Seek in next.
Plus he might start hiding from YOU! Or randomly use Defoliation since if you're a Rogue, you're likely plant-like soon enough. (Not that it'd hurt you while Ethereal, but rather if you're nearby and Invisible.)
There's much more danger than making that second shot or not.
Castilliano wrote: He won't be in a dungeon, unless it has vegetation for his abilities, especially Blackaxe's ability to eat trees for 250 h.p.
That's pretty major.
Where it will be is another question since we're talking a supra-genius intellect to imagine the lair with the godly wisdom (and regional resources) to follow through. One might be able to draw him out of his lair or ambush him, yet I think that'd be in a forest by default, one with heavy enough vegetation to be an issue (yet hopefully not enough of an issue to bump the difficulty even higher!).
I think the "Eventually the 20 lands" is already on the hopeful side because as I mentioned, he's either looking for you (shrinking the timer to get that 20) or not and likely moving (ticking off the clock on the timer/buffs).
And he moves fast, so it'd take all of one's actions to keep up.
(Unless shifting back to a better-case of him being occupied, yet not having assistants or a decoy of his own!)
If he's extremely hurt, he's not going to line up to kill the decoy, he'll line up to chop down a tree. And that's assuming he falls for the decoy given his intellect & the GM's interpretation.
Since Perfect Distraction works at 6th level (as Mislead) then TR's True Seeing works on the decoy (even if not on yourself/your Invisibility due to Blank Slate).
I only used dungeon because if it's outdoors his only option for seeking 30 foot emanation. And that is so much easier to set up.
And waiting for a 20 isn't hard at all. There's 10 consumables with the 1 minute duration and 4 of the 10 minute duration. How does he find me if I'm never in seek range? 4 actions to his 3 and I'm not using seek actions. So 240 movement compared to his 180 without seeking or 120 with a seek or 60 with 2 seeks.
And yes I know he would eat a tree. And probably not going to attack it. He still needs to find me. And if I started combat on a round where he will stride first since he doesn't know about the first attack. He will be 120 feet away at the end of my turn. He's immobilized from the crit bow. No problem since he is freedom of movement but still takes an action. 8 actions remain. He can't eat a tree. If he wants to do that he will have to be in reach of it and use one of his actions to do it. So 8 actions he doesn't have much he can do. There's an argument that he can't even Seek me during time stop. I have the undetected condition seek effects my undetected condition by making it hidden. That's splitting hairs. So I'm 120 from him and he has to find me with 8 seek actions needing to Stride twice to get to me. If it's in a dungeon he has a good chance if outside he needs to get lucky on those 6 seek actions. And then attack against the hidden flat check.
Also I noticed I'm double seeks range. So it's even easier since with the emanation it's only 15 feet.
And the 80' is strictly for setting things up. If you noticed first round is move to 30' attack delay it so he doesn't know it happened. His turn he strides away then unless he went out of view somehow you're setup for the second shot.
And again any response only happens if the second shot is a miss. If it hit he's dead.
And yes he could start stealthily at which point we never find each other and I succeed at the hide challenge.
I'll gladly hop into foundry and play it out.
Castilliano wrote: Nyhme wrote: Castilliano wrote: First, I appreciate the dedication, and it'll be interesting to see how viable it'll be in whatever Treerazer AP we see (and it's been implied for awhile, though Paizo likely needs to get all the steps developed and then balance it vs. the Whispering Way issues/arc.)
In the Tanglebriar, I wouldn't count on having 80' space between you.
Nor having that much time to line up a shot since RD implies TR's looking for you. If he isn't, then what is he doing? I suppose he/it could be engaged in a Ritual, but otherwise he's likely keeping busy and you'll need to use actions to Stride or possibly even Seek (Stealth +40 vs. Perception +36-ish).
Delay Consequence has a 30' range.
Also, there's the meta of having perfect information (like what level TR's True Seeing is at, not the demon-norm stuff).
Delaying to go after him seems unimportant since he'll always have the turn after you (with the ability to cast Time Stop). And if you're in position, it's risky to give him an opportunity to move out of position.
Again though, like the dedication. :)
Tanglebriar isnt a problem since I have airwalk. And he is needing to spend actions for seeking.
30' range on delay consequences also not a problem. If he is doing 60' cone seek then get behind him with ethereal jaunt. If he is doing the 30'emanation on seek then just wait for a round of stride sneak stride. You've misinterpreted the problem I'm raising with Tanglebriar. It's not the difficult terrain (many ways to bypass), it's the density of foliage hindering ranged attacks, including those from above via Air Walk.
(Not so much an issue if you're willing to move in closer as you seem to be adjusting the scenario to do, that was in reference to 80'.)
Also in that 80' instance, the 30' range on Delay Consequence was an issue because of how you'd first set up the scenario.
I do not think Ethereal Jaunt works well for alleviating that since you can only see 60'! Where would you be when casting... Of course with your comment about tanglebriar I'm thinking drop perfect distraction since it doesn't work that great and grab phase arrow. I'd love to take perfect distraction earlier then grav reactive distraction but there's no room in the build for that.
And yes ethereal jaunt is tricky. If you're using it to rebuff and get around him then perceiving him might be a problem. If you just want to get behind him then it's easy. Follow how he's moving guess where he will end his turn move there cast ethereal jaunt. Next round move to where you think he might be and don't maintain jaunt. Next round back to normal.
But I do think since he is a super genius and keenly aware of if he dies on the material plane he is permanently dead. That if the second shot does miss then having been hit for over 75% of his health he would use time stop to run and hide not try to win.
He knows about the first attack, he doesn't know why it didn't hurt him, but he is a super-genius.
Phase Arrow would be nice.
Not sure how you got 120' away at the end of your turn.
Are you Hasted too? That's a short duration.
Your PC's burning resources simply to approach an area he wouldn't yet be certain TR's at.
If you don't maintain your Ethereal Jaunt, it ends right then, so you're exposed on his turn. If you do maintain it, he's likely leaving the area you can detect and you need to catch up at 1/2 speed in 2 actions. I doubt he's going to lumber along Seeking, assuming he respects you as a threat since you made it into his inner sanctum.
And we're adding a guess where the super-genius monster with +40 Stealth ends his turn to the formula, which is darn right dangerous.
Time Stop wouldn't be about him Seeking you IMO.
He'd get some modest healing and position himself where he wanted, like near a tree for 250 h.p. though that would have to wait until a normal turn since it involves a Strike against an object.
And by outside, I mean a tangle of trees (hence the name) that only his Freedom of Movement and his allies Dim Doors can navigate well. So at 120' away, you wouldn't see him either.
(Not that I know what his ultimate lair would look like. Does he like roomy or snuggly? And does he have abjuration effects up!)
---
You have reminded me of an idea I had of a party all w/ Blank Slate.
Sure there are issues if pinned down, but wow could you pick and choose your battles so that hopefully doesn't happen. Lots of MCD Caster feats and consumables to catch up.
Castilliano wrote: He knows about the first attack, he doesn't know why it didn't hurt him, but he is a super-genius.
Phase Arrow would be nice.
Not sure how you got 120' away at the end of your turn.
Are you Hasted too? That's a short duration.
Your PC's burning resources simply to approach an area he wouldn't yet be certain TR's at.
If you don't maintain your Ethereal Jaunt, it ends right then, so you're exposed on his turn. If you do maintain it, he's likely leaving the area you can detect and you need to catch up at 1/2 speed in 2 actions. I doubt he's going to lumber along Seeking, assuming he respects you as a threat since you made it into his inner sanctum.
And we're adding a guess where the super-genius monster with +40 Stealth ends his turn to the formula, which is darn right dangerous.
Time Stop wouldn't be about him Seeking you IMO.
He'd get some modest healing and position himself where he wanted, like near a tree for 250 h.p. though that would have to wait until a normal turn since it involves a Strike against an object.
And by outside, I mean a tangle of trees (hence the name) that only his Freedom of Movement and his allies Dim Doors can navigate well. So at 120' away, you wouldn't see him either.
(Not that I know what his ultimate lair would look like. Does he like roomy or snuggly? And does he have abjuration effects up!)
---
You have reminded me of an idea I had of a party all w/ Blank Slate.
Sure there are issues if pinned down, but wow could you pick and choose your battles so that hopefully doesn't happen. Lots of MCD Caster feats and consumables to catch up.
How does he know he was attacked? Him becoming aware of the attack would be an effect of the attack. It doesn't say hold damage. So he is still absolutely unaware.
I mentioned potions of quickness and a few other consumables but at 90 gold a pop that's nothing compared to the 20k gold for consumables. The expensive consumables have an hour duration so not a worry there.
And you're absolutely correct if he is being sneaky then it wouldn't work but that just means I passed the hide from him challenge. I do have 5th lvl locate memorized so I would know where to use my seek actions and dc 50 isn't too hard for a 20th lvl rogue with a +39 perception. But this would super slow and risk my consumables running out so would sneak on out.
And yes coming out of ethereal jaunt leaves me exposed. But with legendary sneak and 4th lvl invisibility still undetected. You could even argue unnoticed since he has now way of knowing you just popped out of the Ethereal plane.
And vision isn't an issue till possibly the second shot. Since he is moving from 30 feet away 90 feet away assuming he is methodically searching for me. If I don't have a shot move up to 60 feet back to the 30 feet. If still no shot don't attack and use the remaining actions to get as far away as possible.
Castilliano wrote:
---
You have reminded me of an idea I had of a party all w/ Blank Slate.
Sure there are issues if pinned down, but wow could you pick and choose your battles so that hopefully doesn't happen. Lots of MCD Caster feats and consumables to catch up.
And I would love to do an all rogue campaign. All focus on Stealth and then specialize in other areas. Such a fun idea. It'd be a nightmare for the gm to prep though.
One could grab alchemist instead of cleric dedication at first lvl by being an ancient etc. Most your consumables would now be free with daily preparations.
Another goes all in on wizard dedication and supplies True target for the team plus evac etc.
Then one that goes in on investigator only focusing on giving out circumstance bonuses to attacks.
I'm also considering swift elusion at 20 instead of phase Arrow. If treerazor does catch me with a seek as soon as he moves into melee range. Reaction to Stride. Still adjacent but it'd take me back to undetected in a square he isn't attacking. This doesn't really work since he attacks with reach not adjacent.
Could take tricksters ace with dimension door. Trigger any hostile creature within a mile completes a casting of time stop. He seeks during time stop finds me goes to a tree and wants. Time Stop ends and I'm 120 feet from where he found me during time stop. Could also do a trigger of anytime treerazor is within 15 feet of me. This would give an out if while setting it up something unexpected happens and he is suddenly charging me.
Not much to add here except he saw the attack hit himself, likely in a vital organ. Delay Consequence IMO delays just the consequence of the attack (its mechanical effects). If one gets too philosophical, the spell would make the whole attack undetectable to everyone, even the person who attacked!
"Did you hit?"
"Dunno, but I guess so since I cast a spell that I'd only cast if I'd hit."
"Oh good. I guess."
Oh, and then there's the "killing one's grandparent" dilemma too.
If one only cast Delay Consequence because of the consequence of the attack, then casting it takes away the trigger that made you cast it so you don't actually cast it.
(I hope nobody read that seriously!)
I think TR would see the arrow/stone hit and the spell get released.
With his godly Perception, he might even notice the cold iron coating.
Castilliano wrote: Not much to add here except he saw the attack hit himself, likely in a vital organ. Delay Consequence IMO delays just the consequence of the attack (its mechanical effects). If one gets too philosophical, the spell would make the whole attack undetectable to everyone, even the person who attacked!
"Did you hit?"
"Dunno, but I guess so since I cast a spell that I'd only cast if I'd hit."
"Oh good. I guess."
Oh, and then there's the "killing one's grandparent" dilemma too.
If one only cast Delay Consequence because of the consequence of the attack, then casting it takes away the trigger that made you cast it so you don't actually cast it.
(I hope nobody read that seriously!)
I think TR would see the arrow/stone hit and the spell get released.
With his godly Perception, he might even notice the cold iron coating.
You might have a point but still he doesn't know how hard it hit for so is it scary enough use his only once a day time stop? He also still doesn't know where it originated. You could even argue he would be smart enough to know it was a Delay consequences spell. But that means he used an action for recall knowledge and can't use time stop now since it's 3 actions. Unless he is instinctively using time stop the moment he realizes he gets hit. So 2 actions left. He does a 30 foot seek since we will also say with that recall knowledge he can figure out exactly where to point to seek cone. Obviously a success. That's 2 actions. He strides up to melee range. Turn ends. Now down to second attack again. You could conservatively use devise strategim to know if you're getting a 12 or not. If you aren't then dip out and live another day. Or push it and do the attack anyway. If you know that first d20 will be over a 12 then elf step out of melee range and do the attack(unless of course he went up to adjacent with you then don't even bother and just live another day)
Let's be generous. I'm gonna stand by there's zero chance he will get me in his sites with a seek action. But even if he does he still only has 2 actions after the sneak to Stride twice. In that case elf step twice to get out if melee then stride twice to be far away. Now he is back to seeking.
The round strategim rolls 20. Do the attack. Now he sees the arrow. Does he time stop for a simple arrow? Maybe but most likely not. Recall knowledge Let's just say a huge crit is a given. Information gained direction of attack, the arrow is covered in cold iron blanch, it's a spellstrike arrow, it's delayed consequences, attacker most likely worships a time diety. The spell in the arrow is a high level searing light.
That'd being super generous on the recall knowledge. Now what does he do with that information? He has 2 actions, is that knowledge enough to scare him and he runs?
Does the knowledge of me being within 30 feet prompt demolition. Ok I'm super hurt and doomed and sickened 3. Now I need a 15. Strategim if I don't have a 15 then instead of attack stride away.
Does he seek and find me then stride into melee? Does he stop once I'm in reach? If he does then it's one elf step and the option to attack is still there. If he fully closes then it's 2 elf steps and 2 strides. Now he's back to seeking and I'm 140 feet away.
Say he hides and does a sneak. Now we are doing hide an seekk. I do a seek if I find him great if not it's time to leave.
His best route is to hide, not Time Stop, though I doubt most GMs would have thought this out and aren't as smart & experienced as TR.
He'd want to hide because he can't see you despite seeing most everything all the time. So he knows he's dealing with some major high level player who just launched a missile at him that hit him in a vulnerable spot and exploded in fire yet did no damage.
First step would be safety (Hide, possibly Time Stop depending on if a party has been wiping out his troops lately), then recon (Recall Knowledge & Seek) because there's no offense to launch yet.
For all TR knows, the first attack was a ruse (possibly even a 9th+ illusion he saved against) to get him to blow a 1/day ability (not just Time Stop, but Horrid Wilting; he'd want to know they're useful).
Not sure how easy it'd be for him to find a place to find cover or concealment, yet given he has the skill, I'd say his lair should have something even for a Huge creature.
As a small note, not sure how helpful Sculpt Sound would be. At highest, the DC for a spell like that, which is being tricked, could be 10 +20level +6prof +7stat =43. (Correct me if my numbers are off.)
Treerazor's perception, without being a DC, is +46. That means he has to roll a not 1 to succeed at the spell, and anything above a 7 will net him a critical success, meaning that he is able to pinpoint the original sound's starting point.
Perpdepog wrote: As a small note, not sure how helpful Sculpt Sound would be. At highest, the DC for a spell like that, which is being tricked, could be 10 +20level +6prof +7stat =43. (Correct me if my numbers are off.)
Treerazor's perception, without being a DC, is +46. That means he has to roll a not 1 to succeed at the spell, and anything above a 7 will net him a critical success, meaning that he is able to pinpoint the original sound's starting point.
You sir are absolutely correct. However he does need to actively use perception for that.so he's reducing his actions. He could even use a recall knowledge and with the crit success know the spell cast, it's tradition, and figure out that the inflections come from a kyonin elf with some laziness so most likely a half elf. That's 2 actions now he has to seek. So same situation. I do also have ventriloquism ready. So yes he will crit the disbelief but again an action used.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
wouldn't hyperfocus work on him as long as you managed to make him fail the save and keep outside his 20ft radius.
Castilliano wrote: His best route is to hide, not Time Stop, though I doubt most GMs would have thought this out and aren't as smart & experienced as TR.
He'd want to hide because he can't see you despite seeing most everything all the time. So he knows he's dealing with some major high level player who just launched a missile at him that hit him in a vulnerable spot and exploded in fire yet did no damage.
First step would be safety (Hide, possibly Time Stop depending on if a party has been wiping out his troops lately), then recon (Recall Knowledge & Seek) because there's no offense to launch yet.
For all TR knows, the first attack was a ruse (possibly even a 9th+ illusion he saved against) to get him to blow a 1/day ability (not just Time Stop, but Horrid Wilting; he'd want to know they're useful).
Not sure how easy it'd be for him to find a place to find cover or concealment, yet given he has the skill, I'd say his lair should have something even for a Huge creature.
One thing I forgot, which is another reason I switched to the bow. The first attack crit so he has immobilized. Freedom of movement isn't nearly as good as it was in 1e. Yes he auto succeeds at removing the immobilized condition but he wasted am action.
So in the scenario above if he does the recall knowledge and wants to hide. It's recall, remove arrow hide. He does need to take cover since he's not a legendary sneak or not very very sneaky. So now second round he's taking cover but observed and he has a higher ac. Back to the if strategim tells me that second attack will hit then win. If it doesn't then flee and hide.
Or he skips the recall knowledge and does a take cover, hide, sneak. Then there's a 30 foot radius form where he originated for me to try a seek. And DC 50 isn't hard for a rogue at 20. Finds him, checks the attack roll, miss move on or hit finish him.
Now the scenario does need far more info. As a GM I'd never have Treerazer without a horde of orc, demons and cultists. He grants spells and has the one glabrazu at his beck and call. So there's definitely a high level cleric for heals and buffs and a wizard or sorcerer for haste and other buffs. A ton of demons seeking as well other support. I don't think the original scenario would ever happen since it does put him in a very dangerous situation. Since he knows 2 rogues built like this would almost guarantee and instant kill.
That all rogue party with blank slate( we will call them team Tswift). Could easily stalk into the witchbowl and kill him with very small chance of failure. Same strategy just not waiting for the 20 but 4 shots chaining attack aids for a +4 circumstance since we are swapping out elf step for helpful hafling. So 4 of those attacks all needing only an 8(7 if the ruffian went first and hit) on the 2 die 20s for a hit. Last one going would be the one that went wizard so he uses his third action for a power word stun on the off chance he is still alive after the 4th attack.
But again the getting there would need to be played out. Unless the witchbowl has some 10th level alarm or similar spells it's going to be hard to prevent them from finding treerazor.
Also, I'm kind of disappointed with 2e treerazor. Horrid wilting should have been 8th lvl but at will. Why's treerazor limited to once a day on a spell that screams treerazor? And why no decent ranged attacks? Telekinetic projectile is all has and its barely farther than his reach. He should also have at least an imprecise scence with a 120' range like the tarrasque. Call it "wailing of the trees" while in Tanglebriar treerazor is so attuned with the anguish of nature, it has become a sense for treerazor. Effectively giving him imprecise echolocation to 120 feet. Like you said a shot at over 120 feet in the Tanglebriar would be nearly impossible to set up.
Tarrasque is easy too with flying legendary shot rangers. He can't hide being the big dummy he is and 1000 feet of range is a lot of sky to be searching out of his scent range. But it does take a ton more to take him down. Since he doesn't have Treerazers weaknesses and searing light doesn't do much. Stuck with spamming divine Lance. As long as you're averaging over 50 damage a round he will eventually drop, hopefully before the arrows run out. Of course if he did emerge you could assume a band of rovagug cultists would be there buffing and healing him.
I haven't opened my bestiary 3 that came yet. Was there a new 25 cr?
I'd love to see tar baphons stats. Anyone GRINGO him would have to really know their stuff.
In an AP, I wouldn't be surprised if TR has extra abilities in his base, partly because that's been done with other AP bosses and partly to plug up any weaknesses that the writer can't use the setting or allies to handle.
I expect the party will come in with lots of help, i.e. the each get Wishes like in the playtest finale, because of the level difference and to give TR some allies as we agree he should have nearby.
I think that Defoliation ability is meant to be his at-will "wilting", and in tighter combats, it is pretty rough, though I could see Master/Legendary Fort martials persevering maybe too easily.
The Tarrasque often is pictured rampaging across the land, which always seemed to make him vulnerable IMO to PCs simply trying until they succeed by kiting him or such. I'd expect a published encounter to be down in his pit as he reawakens. I don't know that he'd have too many followers in the same battle since he'd eat them too, though backstory could solve that somehow I suppose. I dislike the notion of anybody making nice with him and him reciprocating.
I wonder at what point does it run away given it's stupid yet wiser than nearly all creatures ever! Wuh?! (Of course he's better than an Olympic gymnast too, such is the wonky, anime-escalation of PF2.
The final AP creatures haven't been level 25, maybe 23?
Not sure where Tar Baphon will sit, but it's such a dramatic, dynamic shift in the world, I expect there might be an AP, a PFS season, and more before he's handled. (As in maybe the Pathfinder Society helps clip some of TB's support in canon so that the AP PCs can seal the deal...whatever form that takes given TB's resilience.)
Haven't read Bestiary 3.
Can't think of anything as iconic as the two we've got other than maybe a Cthulhu/Elder Gods critter maybe.
Castilliano wrote: In an AP, I wouldn't be surprised if TR has extra abilities in his base, partly because that's been done with other AP bosses and partly to plug up any weaknesses that the writer can't use the setting or allies to handle.
I expect the party will come in with lots of help, i.e. the each get Wishes like in the playtest finale, because of the level difference and to give TR some allies as we agree he should have nearby.
I think that Defoliation ability is meant to be his at-will "wilting", and in tighter combats, it is pretty rough, though I could see Master/Legendary Fort martials persevering maybe too easily.
The Tarrasque often is pictured rampaging across the land, which always seemed to make him vulnerable IMO to PCs simply trying until they succeed by kiting him or such. I'd expect a published encounter to be down in his pit as he reawakens. I don't know that he'd have too many followers in the same battle since he'd eat them too, though backstory could solve that somehow I suppose. I dislike the notion of anybody making nice with him and him reciprocating.
I wonder at what point does it run away given it's stupid yet wiser than nearly all creatures ever! Wuh?! (Of course he's better than an Olympic gymnast too, such is the wonky, anime-escalation of PF2.
The final AP creatures haven't been level 25, maybe 23?
Not sure where Tar Baphon will sit, but it's such a dramatic, dynamic shift in the world, I expect there might be an AP, a PFS season, and more before he's handled. (As in maybe the Pathfinder Society helps clip some of TB's support in canon so that the AP PCs can seal the deal...whatever form that takes given TB's resilience.)
Haven't read Bestiary 3.
Can't think of anything as iconic as the two we've got other than maybe a Cthulhu/Elder Gods critter maybe.
Couldn't agree more.
Defoliation is the ideal and agree but a 30 foot emanation is trivial to work with. The only class that doesn't have a good way of dealing with it is a melee rogue but what rogue is going to allow a party to tell him to go stabby stab the big dinosaur demon guy?
And yeah I can't picture a reciprocal relationship between the cultists and the tarrasque. But cultists of rovagug are used to unreciprocated adoration, so it's on flavor. Tarrasque would definitely eat them given the chance. But the puny loud food stuffs are making his ouchies better. So other than the occasional snatch and snack out of frustration I think his mind set would be to save those snacks for later, after the sky pokies have been dealt with.
GMing the super intelligent is one of the hardest things. Like it's rare to see a GM do an ancient dragon correctly. You're talking a being smart enough to get frustrated with Neil Degrass Tysons inability to grasp some basic astrophysics that all dragons after 600 years fully understand. The Dragon has literally had centuries to do batman levels of prep on every possible configuration of party/race and has a set of files, just like batmans "incase this hero goes rogue" memorized in his head and has prepared for it. But then GMing them properly would typically lead to TPK or at least a dragon fleeing to plot his revenge. And that's no fun.
For ultraintelligent monsters I often assume they know everything, not that they used Recall Knowledge, just that my limited mind can't comprehend their intelligence so it's easier to figure they know what I, the GM knows, somehow, whether from instant deduction or ancient experience and retention. Whatever a party of mortals can devise could never outwit them (without an element of luck or third party interference).
Though in balance, this means that they can't also have the firepower to win plus they'll need some motivation to fit in the narrative rather than create their own.
And most of my high Int spellcasters have some sort of illusion to begin matters, deplete the party's 1st round buffs. Now that True Seeing's a bit less effective, I suppose I can keep at it. :)
In the Winter AP, I had the 40 Int (!) NPC attempt to talk with the high-20s Int PC (in private) about meta-theories of causality (given the RPG nature of that universe). For example how however unlikely an event should be, there always seemed to be a 1 in X chance of it occurring where X was often 20 to a power (d20 shenanigans) and sometimes 100 to a power (representing percentile charts' long odds). So by considering an extreme option, it became more possible. Quantum causality writ large?
The player only partially understood, so it worked out well. :)
ETA: On the flip side, stupid and mindless creatures would often be powerful brutes that the players could outwit if in interesting terrain, etc.
Castilliano wrote: For ultraintelligent monsters I often assume they know everything, not that they used Recall Knowledge, just that my limited mind can't comprehend their intelligence so it's easier to figure they know what I, the GM knows, somehow, whether from instant deduction or ancient experience and retention. Whatever a party of mortals can devise could never outwit them (without an element of luck or third party interference).
Though in balance, this means that they can't also have the firepower to win plus they'll need some motivation to fit in the narrative rather than create their own.
And most of my high Int spellcasters have some sort of illusion to begin matters, deplete the party's 1st round buffs. Now that True Seeing's a bit less effective, I suppose I can keep at it. :)
In the Winter AP, I had the 40 Int (!) NPC attempt to talk with the high-20s Int PC (in private) about meta-theories of causality (given the RPG nature of that universe). For example how however unlikely an event should be, there always seemed to be a 1 in X chance of it occurring where X was often 20 to a power (d20 shenanigans) and sometimes 100 to a power (representing percentile charts' long odds). So by considering an extreme option, it became more possible. Quantum causality writ large?
The player only partially understood, so it worked out well. :)
ETA: On the flip side, stupid and mindless creatures would often be powerful brutes that the players could outwit if in interesting terrain, etc.
I agree. If I were running an ancient dragon he would have a host of his commander kobold posted everywhere and all of them will either have a wand of status or be able to cast status. Then the moment one is killed my intruders or charmed etc I know. I know which one died and where I posted him that day. So clairvoyance and clairaudience to see the intruders and hear their plans. Then precisely prepare to overcome exactly their plan. There's tons more but properly played as long as an ultraintelligent being can make friends he will be prepared.
Since Treerazer has now been killed, you may be interested to consider the level 30 Cthulhu that Paizo developer Luis Loza wrote up for an unofficial article.
http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2020/02/monstrous-physique-cthulhu-2e/
I'm in the process of reverse engineering the numbers on it for the monster building guide in the GMG, and so far it's looking consistent with a logical extension of the tables. So I think Paizo's table goes up a lot higher than the one they gave us.
Dr A Gon wrote: Since Treerazer has now been killed, you may be interested to consider the level 30 Cthulhu that Paizo developer Luis Loza wrote up for an unofficial article.
http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2020/02/monstrous-physique-cthulhu-2e/
I'm in the process of reverse engineering the numbers on it for the monster building guide in the GMG, and so far it's looking consistent with a logical extension of the tables. So I think Paizo's table goes up a lot higher than the one they gave us.
Ooh, i like this. I have a couple build ideas. Do a new post, please. Set the scene. What are the restrictions on build, prep time, how much distance to start?
I don't really have the time, personally, and I'm sure others here will do a better job than me.
Dr A Gon wrote: I don't really have the time, personally, and I'm sure others here will do a better job than me. No worries. Looking at the stats I think the Tarrasque would be more of a challenge than this guy. No regen, no ranged attacks, trueseeing only at 6th lvl, no other precise or imprecise scenses. The needing to kill him in 2d6 rounds a second time after the first is problematic though.
siegfriedliner wrote: wouldn't hyperfocus work on him as long as you managed to make him fail the save and keep outside his 20ft radius. Yes, Hyperfocus has no exceptions, but only lasts a minute. Also, Treerazor has 9th level Dispel Magic at will, so...
Nyhme wrote:
No worries. Looking at the stats I think the Tarrasque would be more of a challenge than this guy. No regen, no ranged attacks, trueseeing only at 6th lvl, no other precise or imprecise scenses. The needing to kill him in 2d6 rounds a second time after the first is problematic though. Scratch that there's an easy way around that too. Assuming meta knowledge of treerazor, tarrasque and Cthulhu with prep time and an open field for battle. This Cthulhu is the easiest of the three.
I am actually working on a co-op arena for Pathfinder. It's a team of PCs, and they fight a boss, but the boss uses a flowchart for an AI. No GM is required -- and you could solo play the PC team if you wanted to. There is some interactive terrain in the arena that is linked to the victory conditions; think of having to defuse bombs while Mr Lich is summoning undead like mad. The model I basing this on is MCP (marvel crisis protcol)'s co-op missions (Ultimate Encounters).
Ravingdork wrote: Challenge Prompt: You've made many mistakes, but never anything quite like this in your 20 levels of adventuring. You now find yourself, alone, in Treerazer's Tanglebriar, with the nascent demon lord fast approaching. Your only hope? To hide until he passes by.
How do you succeed?
An elite jabberwock will be very difficult, and it's also a forest monster. Innate level 10 true sight. Also being elite, its saves are just high enough to be immune to the vorpal proc. And being level 24 it's pretty much going to eat most PCs. Unless they cheat and bring potions to a duel, but, hey, jabberwocks can cheat and use potions too! :-)
EDIT: The plant vision rules are unclear, but you probably can't hide from a green man in a forest either.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dr A Gon wrote: An elite jabberwock will be very difficult, and it's also a forest monster. Innate level 10 true sight. Also being elite, its saves are just high enough to be immune to the vorpal proc. And being level 24 it's pretty much going to eat most PCs. Unless they cheat and bring potions to a duel, but, hey, jabberwocks can cheat and use potions too! :-) Eek!
You can't be seen at all, if you aren't in line of sight. There is no roll. So all that you really need to do is stay out of line of sight. Then have Negate Aroma and Silence to remove any chance of an indirect senses noticing you.
Thats it you can't be observed at all just keep out of line of sight
If you can't get out of line of sight then try for the total cover circumstance bonus, and a very good stealth roll and Foil Senses. But that has a chance of failure even if you keep out of line of sight you still need to roll to see if you can fool his indirect senses.
Treerazer doesn't have any special sense beyond Darkvision and Truesight so this should work. If it wasn't for the fact that Silence and all the other sound spells are Illusion.
Telepathy is not a sense, and as far as I can see can't be used to find people. Though a nasty GM might improvise something here.
True Seeing only sees through Illusions and Transmutations. So you can do something like a Conjuration or Abjuration then Tree Seeing doesn't help. But they aren't so easy to fool people with as you have to create something appropriate to the area, and will only work if Treerazer does not know the area well.
Passwall to get behind something then Dispel Magic to get rid of it
Creation to create yourself a box to hide in. If you think he might not check in a box for some reason. Perhaps there are better things to create than a box.
True Seeing also only has a 60ft range. so all you have to do is keep outside 60ft and a simple level 2 invisiblity/silence could work.
But you are affected by Treerazer simply by being within 120ft of him. So hopefully you are further away than this.
Anyway very hard. But keeping out of line of sight and more than 120ft away so Negate Aroma and Silence work, is the key to it.
Fortunately Treerazer doesn't have a Survival skill to track you. but one of his allies might.
|
