When do YOU give hero points?

[Ravingdork]

Under what circumstances would you, as GM, give a hero point to your players? (Outside the start of the session of course.)

I'm hoping if we all share enough, we might be able to develop some general guidelines out of the trends.

[Puna'chong]

Generally, if I feel like it's something the group will be talking about after the session, I'll hand one out. If it's a beat that'll be part of the narrative of the campaign after it's over. Or if someone does something particularly daring or pushes things forward with a creative moment

[Lord Bowser]

I'm probably an outlier here, but I've just ignored hero points in my games so far. Partly because I want to avoid the possible appearance of GM favoritism, partly because they feel like a narrative RPG mechanic that feels a little out of place in my group's more tactical approach to Pathfinder, and mostly because they're just one less thing for me to keep track of as GM.

Same goes for Inspiration in 5e. I've never cared for it, and only had one GM ever make frequent use of it.

[Siro]

A couple of circumstances I have given them out are=

1) When a character does an action which as the likely possibility of harming them or place them in a worse situation {generally physical, though anything from giving up magic items to help a village, or giving credit for work to another to help them out} in an effort to prevent harm or otherwise help another. In other words, to be self-sacrificing or 'heroic', with a bit of a bonus if its for NPC's. This can also include undertaking a quest for someone, without any exceptions of reward.

2) Overcoming a great challenge or quest {somewhat like how you would gain Mythic Levels in PF1, though not has demanding.}

3) Really clever play. Sometimes, players come up with something really impressive, that you just have to say "Yeah that deserves a Hero point."

4) Meeting a milestone in a personal goal, depending on how difficult it was meeting it.

5) And of course, good roleplaying, especially if said roleplaying would not be mechanically advantageous to the situation. Example, I had a player playing a Barbarian for a one-shot. His character was not very bright, and extremely superstitious. The party was hired to hunt down a vampire in the area, and so the Barbarian prepared by buying every different holy symbol he could find {because Vampires are afraid of Gods, so if one is good, more must be better} and a mirror made of silver {because Vampires must dislike mirrors, and silver, so combining the two must be there worst nightmare.} During the battle, instead of taking out his greatsword, he took out his chain of holy symbols in one hand {ranging from Sarenrae to Urgathoa} and the mirror in the other. During the battle, he started trying to use his collection of holy symbols like a flail, and hide behind his mirror like a shield. I had to give him points for that.

[WatersLethe]

I gave one out to each player at the start (mostly because I have six Fumbus coins, and Mark Senpai pointed out that we're one of the only tables in the world that can play with a full set of those as hero point markers).

I'm not sure when or if I'll give any more. I'm considering making them in-world tokens of some rarity, with weird fate hijinks that prevents them from ever finding more than six at a time.

I don't like hero points at all, but since I'm still new with this edition, I'm okay with giving them some get out of death points just in case I screw up the balance of an encounter.

[Garretmander]

Lord Bowser wrote:

I'm probably an outlier here, but I've just ignored hero points in my games so far. Partly because I want to avoid the possible appearance of GM favoritism, partly because they feel like a narrative RPG mechanic that feels a little out of place in my group's more tactical approach to Pathfinder, and mostly because they're just one less thing for me to keep track of as GM.

Same goes for Inspiration in 5e. I've never cared for it, and only had one GM ever make frequent use of it.

Same, players don't like them and I don't like them either.

[krazmuze]

OK who was the MVP of that XP just earned? Simple as that. Keeps them going out on a regular schedule tied to the gameplay and not the wall clock.

I like many knee jerked that they should go away nobody should get them, because inspiration in 5e was stupid and none of the streamed games use them.

But then once you learn how the game was balanced to do away with solo or legendary boss templates? That the DC+10 mechanic with bosses with leveled stats means they multiply their chances of critting for double damaging including their constant damage? That adventures make every encounter to be boss difficulty? That their max DMG numbers can easily exceed your HP? That NPCs are more accurate than PCs, that they do not use proficiency math but instead use just because they can math? That the hero point recovery was the way they balance out the oops that math can cause?

I started using them.

[Cyouni]

I recall I gave out one when a player was hesitating to use some high damage AoE spell because the fighter was also in there, and the fighter went "just do it, I got this".

It worked out.

[Ravingdork]

Discussion on the value of hero points (or lack there of) or how you don't use hero points at your table is both unhelpful and off-topic.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

I hate awarded currencies like this so i am treating them like cypher system xp when i remember.

That is to say awards for discoveries or major events rather than individual achievements.

Unfortunately the game expects them more than 5e expects inspiration so ripping it out entirely would be a bit rough imo.

[Paradozen]

Basically, I do it whenever a moment at the table stands out to me as particularly interesting. The monk reveals the reason he haggled so thoroughly only to save 3cp on a chicken is because he was working off a predatory loan. The archer grabs the giant eagle and punches it in the face because he doesn't want it stealing his treasure. The iruxi ties up and interrogates the monitor lizard that attacked them then persuaded it into accompanying the group. These were cool side moments in the session, gave a bit of insight into the characters' motivations and attitudes, and generally stood out as highlights of the session.

My House Rule regarding Hero Points:

Spoilered in case this is off topic, but I've started giving out two hero points each session instead of one because the real answer is "not often." I keep forgetting about them until its long past and this also gives me room to not give them out if it feels too forced.

[Cole Deschain]

I keep score by passing out poker chips during play, and any that would carry over to the next session get added to my notes for when we reconvene.

Anything the table collectively goes "wow" in a good way for can earn a Hero Point- from a sick roll that makes everyone's jaw drop to a brilliant idea that completely short-circuits and guts a planned encounter, to roleplaying your character exceptionally well (and that one has saved some bacon, because a character who when played true to type makes, uh... questionable decisions when it comes to optimal tactics? Gonna need the help).

I also hand 'em out at meaningful milestones, irrespective of where they hit in a session. Like, if we wrap up an AP volume and still have time left to roll into the next one? Hero points all 'round. End a session and an adventure at the same time? Everybody gets two when we play next.

Oh, and Unluckiest Bastard gets one at the end of a session. Flub all your rolls? Fail your saves? Botch your crafting roll? Have a freebie for next time.

I also allow players to donate to one another if someone's has no hero points and is about to die, but no take-backsies.

[Malk_Content]

I let them hold over sessions and dont give out a freebie (because getting one each session actually rewards unheroic play and wiping at the end of a session brings meta concerns in like "well its 10:30 might as well use all my hero points!")

I give them out whenever a character suffers a critical hit or critically fails a save roll against an adversary. This gives the players a bit more comeback juice especially against higher level problems or when I happen to be rolling on fire.

[Fumarole]

I hand out one to start the session, with a second given to players who show up on time and ready to play. A third can be earned during the session for exceptionally heroic acts, or for making a cool story moment. So far in six sessions I think I have only given out a third card once, but I use Plot Twists in combination with Hero Points, so my game is different from others in that they are much more powerful.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Honestly, handing out Hero Points is the thing I'm worst at with the system (aside from secret rolls, which isn't game breaking).

[Malkinban]

My GM gives them out for great roleplay as well as acceptable puns. The flip side is that bad puns see a hero point being taken away.

[Watery Soup]

Ravingdork wrote:

Discussion on the value of hero points (or lack there of) or how you don't use hero points at your table is both unhelpful and off-topic.

It is not off-topic. You asked for circumstances under which people give them out; some people have zero or vanishingly few circumstances. That's on topic.

It may be unhelpful to you, but it's certainly helpful to the people who don't or rarely hand out Hero Points to know others don't. As you accurately imply, there's no standard - even in PFS - and it's widely GM dependent. A lot of people don't use Hero Points or don't hand them out, and that's something everyone needs to know.

Personally, I don't give Hero Points in homebrew games. I'll fudge a roll before I force someone to use a Hero Point. But I consider myself to have failed already if I have to resort to fudging rolls.

On the other hand, I just started GMing PFS2, but I intend to hand out Hero Points exactly as the median of GMs I play with do. And that seems to be that after every encounter, whoever crit the hardest gets one. I don't like that system but it's consistent with the other GMs in the area.

And this last paragraph is admittedly off-topic: I only use Hero Points in PFS games when I am about to die or when one of my decisions is about to negatively affect someone I don't know well. If I know for sure someone's not going to be a crybaby about me crit failing a Treat Wounds check, I'm not using a Hero Point. I find the use of Hero Points breaks immersion, and I have no reservations about crit failing stuff, much less failing stuff. A big "I told you so" to the people I played with last night that forced me to use a Hero Point when I failed a Treat Wounds, only to reroll a crit fail; and then later wish I had a Hero Point when I crit failed Battle Medicine and a 5/8 chance of killing our only melee fighter!

[Anguish]

Whenever we can remember to.

Also known as "basically never".

The problem we experience is that there's so much other stuff going on that we rarely step back and realize "hey, that was exceptionally epic and something mechanical should happen now."

[Phalton]

I'm not a GM myself, but my GM has given them out in the two campaigns we're playing for boldness/daring, and for innovation/creativity. They're either given out spur-of-the-moment, or at the start of the next session so that player has more than 1. Usually depends on when in the session the earning action was performed.

[Charlie Brooks]

When the PCs reach a story "checkpoint," often alongside a 30+ XP award. I've also toyed with giving them as a reward for defeating combat encounters of severe difficulty or higher.

When I give out a hero point, everybody in the group gets one. I try to reinforce the idea that when one person does something great, everybody benefits.

[voideternal]

I used to have a phase where I was worried about hero point favoritism, and my current solution is to just give more.

If a not-talkative not-interactive player talks in character, I'll give them a hero point.

If a player takes an interesting high-risk action, I'll give them a hero point. Often times, they spent a hero point to take the risk that I effectively refund.

If a player follows a main quest hook, I give them a hero point.

If a player does something interesting ignoring the quest hook, I give them a hero point.

Any solution that is something other than, 'walk up and hit it' gets a hero point.

I award hero points when players do anything I want to see more of. I don't award hero points for arguing, annoying others, being passive, etc.

Really strong monsters and tough encounters will mess up players regardless of their remaining hero point count, and if the players end up winning, I don't particularly mind (they won, which is good). Also the hero point cap is 3, and when the cap is hit, I give them hero points anyway and remind them that the cap is 3.

My players end up trying to efficiently use their hero points by doing a lot of risky interesting things. Little do they know that I just give them more.

[Cole Deschain]

voideternal wrote:

My players end up trying to efficiently use their hero points by doing a lot of risky interesting things. Little do they know that I just give them more.

This right here- if you give 'em out, they get used more. People do more risky/heroic stuff

[Michael Sayre]

Watery Soup wrote:

It may be unhelpful to you, but it's certainly helpful to the people who don't or rarely hand out Hero Points to know others don't. As you accurately imply, there's no standard - even in PFS - and it's widely GM dependent. A lot of people don't use Hero Points or don't hand them out, and that's something everyone needs to know.

PFS actually started including reminders to GMs in adventures to make sure they're handing out Hero Points, including the one that all players start with, in accordance with the expectation that they're given out at a rate of about 1 per hour as described on page 507 of the CRB. We tried to leave that pretty open so GMs had plenty of discretion. When reports were that some GMs were frequently forgetting to award them, we decided a reminder that PFS follows the expectations established in the CRB and some suggestions to help GMs make quick decisions about who to give the points to (if they hadn't already by the time the reminder came up) were in order.

So if you look at adventures from about 1-08 on, you'll see that for about every hour's worth of content there's a Hero Point reminder letting the GM know that they should be giving out a Hero Point and suggesting some ways of making that decision if they're not sure who to give it to.

[Levi]

I don't.

I allow for the one per session and that has already lead to an occasion of outright cheating of a deserved death.

Ravingdork wrote:

Discussion on the value of hero points (or lack there of) or how you don't use hero points at your table is both unhelpful and off-topic.

Fellow GM's discussing the merits or the lack there of of a mechanic in relation to why they do or don't award them is entirely on topic, and your dismissal of them comes across as extremely snobby.

[Ravingdork]

Levi wrote:

I don't.

I allow for the one per session and that has already lead to an occasion of outright cheating of a deserved death.

Could you please elaborate?

Did the player have spare HP tokens up his sleeve or something?

[Levi]

You don't get to attack me and then tell me to not bring it up again.

The term "cheat death" isn't to be taken as "cheating" unless you're just trying to be obsequious for the sake of your straw man. Nowhere did I say I tried to kill the player, he's still in my campaign and he knows he should have died there. He was rather ambivalent about using the hero point.

I don't kill players, bad GM's kill players. The whole dynamic isn't GM vs Player, its GM AND Players to tell/experience a story. It's about adventure, and danger and overcoming obstacles and risks with a table of friends. Sometimes that means a character dies, and that's part of the story. Some of the best stories come from a character's heroic death.

If you need hero points to cover up your failings as a GM that's as much on you being a bad GM as anything else. Maybe encounter build better, maybe plan better, maybe use a DM screen like we've been doing for the last 30 years.

Every table I've GM'd or played at for the last 25 years has had the understanding that the GM screen is there for the protection of the players, so the GM can mitigate the spikes to allow a fun game to progress.

Hell, you can't even run some systems (Rolemaster for example) with out it otherwise your PC's will all be maimed or dead after a handful of fights.

This is an open topic, and why a GM is sparing with Hero Points is just as valid as why a GM feels the need to hand out dozens as seen in some of the house rules regarding them. Every table is different and discussing how or why we do things can help other tables through their own choices. Telling other members on these boards to not partake in the discussion because you don't like what they say is the only unproductive thing in this topic other than out little spat.

[Ice Titan]

Two at the start of every session for each PC. I hate playing favorites so I hate having to pick out specific scenes to give hero points for. Better and easier for everyone to get a hero point at the start of our 6 hour session than it is for me to try to find the right times to drop them off as we go along.

[vagrant-poet]

Levi wrote:

Fellow GM's discussing the merits or the lack there of of a mechanic in relation to why they do or don't award them is entirely on topic, and your dismissal of them comes across as extremely snobby.

The thread's topic is about sharing the experience and decision making behind using hero points, so the OP understands how others use them. Not to discuss hero points as a system.

So actually, "the merits or the lack there of of a mechanic" requires a pretty liberal interpretation of the topic. It's fairly obviously against the spirit.

Start a new thread about the merits. It's very easy to do.

[Ubertron_X]

vagrant-poet wrote:

The thread's topic is about sharing the experience and decision making behind using hero points, so the OP understands how others use them. Not to discuss hero points as a system.

So actually, "the merits or the lack there of of a mechanic" requires a pretty liberal interpretation of the topic. It's fairly obviously against the spirit.

Start a new thread about the merits. It's very easy to do.

And why exactly are statements like: "We are not using them, apart from 1/session to spare players from random bad results/death" no valid opinion? Because that is also a statement how others use them.

[Ravingdork]

I'll admit it is debatable, but the act of debating it is in itself off-topic. I still hold to my initial request not to post about disengaging from the hero point system. Please be respectful of my wishes.

Also, I owe an apology to Levi. I initially had a pretty harsh knee-jerk reaction to what he had said, thought better of it, then edited my post.

[Puna'chong]

I'm more interested in seeing when other DMs hand them out and any unique circumstances I haven't thought about rather than seeing "I don't."

An assertion that you don't give out hero points isn't interesting for this discussion, because if one person doesn't give out hero points the reasoning doesn't really help for an OP that's looking for ways people DO give out hero points. And if the reasoning isn't interesting for one person, it isn't interesting for anyone for the purposes of this topic

[Ravingdork]

Puna'chong wrote:

I'm more interested in seeing when other DMs hand them out and any unique circumstances I haven't thought about rather than seeing "I don't."

An assertion that you don't give out hero points isn't interesting for this discussion, because if one person doesn't give out hero points the reasoning doesn't really help for an OP that's looking for ways people DO give out hero points.

This.

Too many people saying "I dont like them or use them" may discourage others from posting and kill the thread (or at least it's original intent).

[Salamileg]

I've been struggling to remember to hand them out, but there have been some moments. Examples being when the barbarian took the time to try and administer first aid to the downed cleric and succeeded despite being untrained, and the time the monk nonlethally defeated an enemy, something that she didn't want to do but ultimately benefitted the group.

A way I've worked around my forgetfulness is allowing my players to nominate someone for a hero point. The only rules being that I still have to approve it and that you can't nominate yourself.

[Puna'chong]

Anecdotally, my players over the years have really enjoyed having hero points. I've played with a version of them since 3.5.

One thing I haven't seen brought up is whether or not to award hero points for an action that used a hero point. I didn't for a while, but when I changed that for a mythic campaign I noticed my players were much more actively looking for situations to be heroic and make "big moves," because they knew they had a chance to recover with a hero point if they did something really interesting. Even before they had their mythic abilities.

It's more high fantasy and maybe less, I dunno, gritty. Might not work for all tables. But if you want players to really look for opportunities to be heroic and daring and do the unexpected then awarding hero points even if they had to use a hero point to do it can be a wild ride.

[Ravingdork]

I like the nomination idea and had actually informally implemented it in my own games already. I feel players should be free to say "That's worth a hero point, right?" on behalf of their companions (or even themselves). I do not answer that question before the act in question is carried out.

Like most of you, I have difficulty remembering them, and have awarded quite a few well after the fact. This is the only time I let them roll over into the next session; when they should have had them for this session, but didn't due to my own failings.

I usually dole them out for especially heroic or creative acts that strike me as being above and beyond the norm. I don't like to give them out for good roleplaying, as not everyone has ranks in Performance, but I do give them out if someone does something that seems like it makes the game more fun for everyone else (even if its roleplaying).

Here are some examples in which I awarded hero points:

- The party druid and his companion spent most of a combat getting a crippled NPC out of harm's way.
- The party cleric put themselves in harm's way to save an ally from certain death (healing alone wouldn't have been enough to get the hero point, using their body as a shield while healing is what did it).
- When a giant monster from a lower level rose up and tore into the party, the monk leaped over the monster into a flanking position on the lower level, used flurry of blows to get its attention, then moved away to draw the monster away from his ravaged companions, giving them much needed time to recover.
- Pretty much any time anyone kills a boss level monster or contributed significantly towards the defeat of a higher level foe.

[Aivi]

besides at the start of the night, I will also give them out to the group if what they are about to head into I know is extremely difficult. I will also give them out individually if a member of my group does something pretty amazing or very much in line with their character. (promoting the rp aspect of rpg).

That is of course when I actually remember.

[Kainite101]

We found we always forgot to use them, and to hand them out. And when we did remember them, we hoarded them to save us from kill shots on ourselves... We changed it to a shared pool using poker chips on table in a pile next to the map and started "remembering" to use them and also make it likely someone would use it to do something heroic, rather than hoard that only point for a bad save roll or getting crit hit... And sometimes RNG is just nasty to someone all night, and the blessed player never needs them, so sharing the pool helps out on that for us anyways...

[Ravingdork]

If only we could remember to give them out more, maybe people would use them more. I've observed that most people (3 out of 4 at our table) tend to hoard at least one.

[Levi]

I brought this thread up tonight at our table, they were aghast at the idea of being handed multiple Hero Points per session. I left out the spat between Ravingdork and myself, and that's been handled via PM.

I've long been a fan of fate points, but taken in a form closer to the old Warhammer fantasy. Where you get X amount for the life of your character. They were more powerful and could be used on anything, but you had a finite number of them, which made them valuable.

Thus the one per session isn't in itself a huge stretch for me or my groups, but we all find the idea of multiple per session would lessen the risk/reward of their character's actions.

That said, I'm still running a homebrew (a converted homebrew DnD campaign in Greyhawk) and it seems as if the AP's are balanced around the use of them to keep the party going from what I see on the forums. This may be where there's a disconnect.

How many people using hero points conservatively, like myself, are running homebrews where we control all the encounters vs those who are running the AP's?

I kinda like Kainite101's hero point pool idea:

Quote:

We changed it to a shared pool using poker chips on table in a pile next to the map and started "remembering" to use them and also make it likely someone would use it to do something heroic, rather than hoard that only point for a bad save roll or getting crit hit... And sometimes RNG is just nasty to someone all night, and the blessed player never needs them, so sharing the pool helps out on that for us anyways...

I may try implementing this, as the party gets into more heroic grounds and the costs of failure and the danger of sudden death increases.

[rainzax]

For PFS:

At the the beginning of the session, when I am determining the players challenge points, I write all the PCs names on a post-it, next to their class and level, next to their challenge points. Then, next to each name, I draw a little box, and check each box off as the game runs, to ensure that, by the final encounter, everyone has gotten their second HPt. If for some reason I haven't awarded one by then, I give it to them for the final encounter. I consider this distribution akin to a "right" they have to get at least two HPs per session, to navigate the increased impact of the RNG in 2nd edition.

PCs may get a HP for: having a cool idea, having a cool success/failure, helping me manage the game, helping a new player out, or doing anything the scenario says merits one.

For Home Game:

A mix of Personal and Table hero points.

Personal HP are given each time the character gains a level. At the end of every session, the table votes for "Best Actor" and that person gets a bonus one. These HP "rollover" between sessions.

Table HP are given at the beginning of a session, and expire by the end of the session (they do not "rollover"). Anyone can pull from this communal pool of HP by getting a table consensus to do so. I have found in practice this promoted good team discussion and teamwork.

Cheers.

[kenada]

I’ve been trying to be more liberal distributing them. Of course, I give everyone at the start as written. During the session, I give out more when someone does something awesome (usually indicated by their being excited at what just happened) and sometimes for the MVP in a scene or encounter. Generally, everyone ends up getting at least some.

To encourage players to use them more, I’ve added two additional uses:
— You can spend 1 hero point to flash back and retroactively prepare for the current situation (à la Blades in the Dark).
— You can spend 1 hero point to increase someone else’s degree of success. This is not a fortune effect, so everyone can chip in to turn someone’s critical failure into a critical success if they really want.

The first one is meant to address an issue that has cropped up where the PCs were blatantly not prepared for a situation. I’ve offered to let them retcon it, but my players have never taken the offer. My hope is they’ll be more willing if it’s sanctioned (with a hero point cost).

The second one was inspired by a recent article on the Alexandrian. I particularly liked the part on off-turn engagement, so I added another use for hero points to give players something to do when it’s not their turn.

[Saedar]

I like to treat them like Fate points. Do something interesting that provides an exciting complication? Hero point. Play to your character in exciting/non-disruptive ways? Hero point.

[Asurasan]

I've probably been a little more restrictive on hero points than suggested in the core, but they have received numerous uses and are nice for a tool that allows the PC's to push for a success when it really counts.

Right now I'm running Age of Ashes and I've been giving out 1 hero point per chapter in the AP, in addition I give out Hero points for generally dramatic or heroic actions my PC's take or any unique accomplishments.

[YogoZuno]

Guidelines say one per hour, our group has been working mainly off the free point at start of session. In PFS scenarios, this has been ok, but I think it ramped up the difficulty of our Plaguestone playthrough.

In future, I'll be trying harder to give out more Hero Points.

[ExOichoThrow]

At my table we haven't been playing with Hero points, it seems a little too much to us. A bit unnecessary.

[Ravingdork]

ExOichoThrow wrote:

At my table we haven't been playing with Hero points, it seems a little too much to us. A bit unnecessary.

How many encounters has everyone survived thus far without Hero Points (or GM fudging)? Seems to me we'd lose a character every other encounter if not for Hero Points.

[Razcar]

I try not to reward them for actions or play that have rewards in themselves, e.g. they defeat an opponent or advance the plot. Doing this In-world they get loot and take another step towards their goals (or reach them), and mechanically they get XP.

Instead I try to reward hero points to encourage and recognize the kind of play we have agreed that we want to see. That can differ a bit pending on how our group is doing, and also differ between players. Since we always play with the same people (that are friends) this works well.

I do not reward points at the start of the game, and they are kept between sessions. You can only use them for influencing rolls, not to stabilize. On the other hand we have a max pool of 5 hero points.

[Malk_Content]

I will note that under my rules players oddly haven't been using them in combat. Almost all hero points have been spent on skill rolls the players have believed to be important (mostly social.)

[krazmuze]

How is the excessive crits of bosses being dealt with without using hero points to stabilize? Because otherwise going down and back up means getting wounded, which just makes you closer to dead the next time you are dying and if you take an easy critical hit when dying again you are now dead.

Are you GMs with unwritten rules to never hit the downed? GMs that never focus fire? Are you houseruling battle medicine does treat wounds? players that have altitis just itching to die?

[Malk_Content]

My players have only gone down as a group once and that was against the first +2 enemy they faced. After that they've done a lot of grappling, demoralizing and other disabling tactics. Fights have been close but not deadly.