Request: Environmental Field Collars made legal for PC use


Starfinder Society

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5

I mean, they are super good, and in-universe there is NO reason they wouldn’t work on a PC. Automatically activate in hazardous conditions and a long duration charge? I’d buy one just as an emergency. Prevents you from getting just destroyed by a smoke grenade. You’d spend at most a round in bad conditions.

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VampByDay wrote:
I mean, they are super good, and in-universe there is NO reason they wouldn’t work on a PC. Automatically activate in hazardous conditions and a long duration charge? I’d buy one just as an emergency. Prevents you from getting just destroyed by a smoke grenade. You’d spend at most a round in bad conditions.

Given that most PCs sleep with their enviro protections on is that really that big of an issue?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

For once I would appreciate a scenario written with two possible sensory experiences: one with environmental protections on, and one with them off. Too many times do I have to parse the room description and leave out smells, air quality and temperature.

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Nefreet wrote:
For once I would appreciate a scenario written with two possible sensory experiences: one with environmental protections on, and one with them off. Too many times do I have to parse the room description and leave out smells, air quality and temperature.

I don't think you do.

Enviroprotections leave out harmful gasses, you know like harmful AMOUNTS of gasses since anything would be lethal in the right qualities.

So my headcannon is that the protections let through enough to let you know its there but not enough to make you gag.

5/55/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

That'd be weird. There's a lot of stuff that is lethal long before you can smell it. Not to mention stuff that is lethal that has no smell or taste at all. I mean, I know it could all just be 'magic' but it'd be really weird for it to let anything through, especially if it's supposed to stand up to a vacuum test.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Armor doesn't interfere with blindsense (scent) or bite attacks. It's magic.

(It's one of my pet peeves. Part of me just wants to tell those natural weapon loving species that they're on life support and that the future belongs to tool using monkeys. Fangs made sense in the stone age, not the space age.)

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Armor doesn't interfere with blindsense (scent) or bite attacks. It's magic.

(It's one of my pet peeves. Part of me just wants to tell those natural weapon loving species that they're on life support and that the future belongs to tool using monkeys. Fangs made sense in the stone age, not the space age.)

According to the prehensile tail alternate racial of the Vesk, the Vesk natural attack is a tail slap.

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pithica42 wrote:
That'd be weird. There's a lot of stuff that is lethal long before you can smell it.

Then you don't let THAT in.

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Not to mention stuff that is lethal that has no smell or taste at all.

You don't let that in either.

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I mean, I know it could all just be 'magic' but it'd be really weird for it to let anything through, especially if it's supposed to stand up to a vacuum test.

It gets too weird doing it the other way, how are you using blindsense scent or sound if your armor works like it's in a vacuum?

Starfinder magitek explicitly uses magic or tech , whichever is better for the job at hand. A battery powered lifebubble would solve a lot of the problems with how your forcefield is supposed to know what atmosphere you consider ideal

"Hey, Bob look funny to you?"
"Isn't oxygen a drug on his planet?
"...oh hell not again"

4/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
For once I would appreciate a scenario written with two possible sensory experiences: one with environmental protections on, and one with them off. Too many times do I have to parse the room description and leave out smells, air quality and temperature.

I don't think you do.

Enviroprotections leave out harmful gasses, you know like harmful AMOUNTS of gasses since anything would be lethal in the right qualities.

So my headcannon is that the protections let through enough to let you know its there but not enough to make you gag.

I am forced to ask if a headcannon is a possible cybernetic augmentation.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
RealAlchemy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
For once I would appreciate a scenario written with two possible sensory experiences: one with environmental protections on, and one with them off. Too many times do I have to parse the room description and leave out smells, air quality and temperature.

I don't think you do.

Enviroprotections leave out harmful gasses, you know like harmful AMOUNTS of gasses since anything would be lethal in the right qualities.

So my headcannon is that the protections let through enough to let you know its there but not enough to make you gag.

I am forced to ask if a headcannon is a possible cybernetic augmentation.

Actually? A gun can be put into an eye...

5/55/5

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Starfinder Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
It gets too weird doing it the other way, how are you using blindsense scent or sound if your armor works like it's in a vacuum?

I don't. I've always, as a player, assumed that my characters that had that stuff couldn't use it if I had environmental protections on or are in an environment where that otherwise doesn't make any sense (like hearing in a vacuum). I've always, as a GM, ruled that you can have your environmental protections on, or you can use scent (or several other 'blindsenses' that rely on exposure to the atomosphere), but not both. That's a tradeoff for being safe from dangerous gasses.

If there's some rule or FAQ or dev post where it explicitly (or even implicitly) states that scent works in environmental protections or you can somehow hear in a vacuum with armor, I've honestly missed it, and would appreciate the heads up where that's explained. I don't see it in the rules for environmental protections on armor, nor on the rules for the blindsense or blindsight special abilities.

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pithica42 wrote:


If there's some rule or FAQ or dev post where it explicitly (or even implicitly) states that scent works in environmental protections or you can somehow hear in a vacuum with armor, I've honestly missed it, and would appreciate the heads up where that's explained. I don't see it in the rules for environmental protections on armor, nor on the rules for the blindsense or blindsight special abilities.

I don't see anything that says that they shut off either, which is where I think the burden of proof would have to lie for something that's such an integral part of the game. So much of the game has Neil deGrasse Tyson locked in the closet that I can't see bringing him out for that.

Environmental Protections

Space can be an inhospitable place, with countless dangerous worlds within it. Unless otherwise specified, all armors protect you from a range of hazards to ensure that you can survive for at least a few days if you must make emergency repairs to the hull of a Starship, explore an alien world, or endure exposure to an environmental breach in a space station. Some armors do this through an environmental field (a minor force field specially attuned to pressure and temperature that does not reduce damage from attacks), while others can be closed with helmets and airtight seals.

Now an airtight seal sounds like it would negate a sense of smell (at least for anything outside of the suit you've been in for 5 days...) but a forcefield doesn't.

5/55/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

I disagree. I think the burden of proof lies on wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If you as a player say, "I close my eyes to avoid the medusa's gaze attack." Then you are protected but you also can't see the mephit about to shoot your friend. If you as a player say, "I turn on my environmental protections to avoid the toxic atmosphere." Then you are protected but you also can't smell the bantrid assassin sneaking up behind you. If you want both, you need to show a rule that says you can have both.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5

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pithica42 wrote:
I disagree. I think the burden of proof lies on wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If you as a player say, "I close my eyes to avoid the medusa's gaze attack." Then you are protected but you also can't see the mephit about to shoot your friend. If you as a player say, "I turn on my environmental protections to avoid the toxic atmosphere." Then you are protected but you also can't smell the bantrid assassin sneaking up behind you. If you want both, you need to show a rule that says you can have both.

If there is a bantrid assassin you would hear him coming. They literally go insane if they have to sit still lying in wait for you. They'd Probably be running circles around you while shouting ‘wheeeeeeeee,’

:-P

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Starfinder Superscriber

I used bantrid because they have no sense of smell. It was supposed to be a joke.

I mean, not a funny one, mind you. Just an indication that my disagreement was not meant to be taken as an attack by anyone.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

There is a Developer clarification about being able to bite, even when you have your armor sealed up around you. Similarly, your climbing suckers work even when wearing armor, and so does your morphic skin.

It was one of the earliest questions people had about Starfinder, and every time the response has been, "Don't think about it too much".

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, in some cases an augmentation requires one to spend a percentage of the price of gear to allow it to be used with the augmentation...

So if it isn't called out specifically in the augmentation, I would think armor is okay with such things...

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pithica42 wrote:
I disagree. I think the burden of proof lies on wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If you as a player say, "I close my eyes to avoid the medusa's gaze attack." Then you are protected but you also can't see the mephit about to shoot your friend.

We know how eyes work. We also have rules for shutting your eyes that mirror fairly well what happens when you shut them.

We do NOT know how superscience/consumermagictech is supposed to work.

What you are arguing is that environmental seals shut off certain abilities despte having no game effects for doing so because SCIENCE! in a system where SCIENCE! has been hyper drived into the sun on the wings of literal angels.

4/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
pithica42 wrote:
I disagree. I think the burden of proof lies on wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If you as a player say, "I close my eyes to avoid the medusa's gaze attack." Then you are protected but you also can't see the mephit about to shoot your friend.

We know how eyes work. We also have rules for shutting your eyes that mirror fairly well what happens when you shut them.

We do NOT know how superscience/consumermagictech is supposed to work.

What you are arguing is that environmental seals shut off certain abilities despte having no game effects for doing so because SCIENCE! in a system where SCIENCE! has been hyper drived into the sun on the wings of literal angels.

Starfinder in general is much more Science Fantasy (Star Wars-ish) than Science Fiction (Babylon 5) anyway. The tech works because the books say it works, not because we have any other reason.

3/5 5/55/5 Contributor

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I’ll just note that a ruling that characters can’t use special senses while environmental protections are active would mean that kalos can’t use their sound blindsense outside of the very rare underwater scenario, since aquatic creatures need to have environmental protections up. It seems reasonable to me that creatures with such senses would be able to get armor that wouldn’t leave them unable to “see,” the same way that creatures with unusually shaped bodies can get armor that fits them.

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You'd also have issues with Vlaaka ins space suits. If Vlaaka can't see any time they need environmental protections there's no way you're clearing them for field work.

Dataphiles 4/5 5/55/5

As this is a slightly more than tangential relation,

What about in space? In the vacuum of space, do extra senses (i.e. scent, sound, etc..) get inhibited by the lack of a medium to travel through?

5/55/5

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Starfinder Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
What you are arguing is that environmental seals shut off certain abilities despte having no game effects for doing so because SCIENCE! in a system where SCIENCE! has been hyper drived into the sun on the wings of literal angels.

What I'm arguing is that we all make an attempt to 'play fair' and take the good with the bad rather than try to one up the developers or each other when we roleplay. If the rules say, or even imply, that a thing works (whether it's because of MAGIC! or SCIENCE! or because the game developers say so) we accept that as a part of the game and play accordingly. ie I'll never argue about how Force Field armor upgrades work because the rules say they work how they work, even though it makes no sense.

If the rules don't say a thing works, then it doesn't. Especially if doing so makes the universe less internally consistent. Even if we want it to. Even if it makes some characters more difficult to play than others. Even if it makes some ability or another effectively useless. Part of the fun of the game is in overcoming challenges presented to the character. Ignoring that makes the game less fun (for me). I'm perfectly happy to play in a game where creatures that evolved/were created to be underwater hunters are better hunters underwater than on land. That kind of character diversity makes the game better (in my opinion) not worse.

I've said my piece, though. So I'm out. I'll continue running and playing the game the way I am and you can continue running and playing the game the way you are and we can just accept that that's different and that's fine until there's an official ruling that corrects one or both of us. All it takes is one line "Characters that have special senses are in no way hampered by environmental protections on armor." (or something similar) and I'll be perfectly happy to change the way I run/play.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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making vlakka and other races damn near unplayable at your tables isn't a challenge to overcome, its a curve ball to throw at unsuspecting players in a campaign where they're supposed to be able to move their characters from table to table.

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If the rules don't say a thing works, then it doesn't.

No. Absolutely not.

If the rules don't say a thing works, and they don't say that a thing doesn't work, then you look at the available evidence for and against it working. In this case the evidence against armor seals and blindsenses working together is the paradigm that this is a MUCH harder science fiction game than most rules clarifications we've been given. The argument for them working together is that the general tone of the system is to throw the entire star wars cantina out into space and get them exploring with as little worry about physics as possible.

There is no science argument behind how much gas or vibration a force field space suit would let through because we don't have force field armor.

It isn't remotely cheating, one upping the developers to chose playability over science in a setting with magitech, where 110 credits can let you slap a tile on a saterday night special and now it shoots ghosts.


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Given that there is a particular scenario that specifies that a creature with scent with their environmental protection on has a penalty to a particular smell-based check (sadly I dont remember which off the top of my head, but I can look it up later if need be) I'm confident saying some smells can get through, with protection acting as a filter when not in a vacuum. Its magic that helps the armor. Just like when an Akata bites you in the vacuum of space you can contract the disease without suffering from decompression. Its magitech.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

we had something similar occur in my campiagn with the Khizar, tree folk in the party. They were all traveling in a light armored transport with 8 people in it. its a sealed enviroment. the targets were 70ft away. The khizar effectively couldnt see them, through the window. I ruled that even in a moving vehicle, the tremor sense basically is useless, if it stopped and they were within the sense radius sure, then there is the life sense, do i give every player with life sense the ability to literally see through walls? or armor plates. it was out of range regardless, since they have no normal vision, their description says they can basically tell night and day, visually and thats about it. adding factors like environmental things just added to the already complex job of negotiating equipment.

3/5

"Dr." Cupi wrote:

As this is a slightly more than tangential relation,

What about in space? In the vacuum of space, do extra senses (i.e. scent, sound, etc..) get inhibited by the lack of a medium to travel through?

That's actually covered in the book under Vacuum. Or maybe under Blindsense? I don't have the quote on me at the moment, but many of the blindsenses do not function in a vacuum. The rules do note that some may function such as ones based off of detecting emotions.


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DrakeRoberts wrote:
"Dr." Cupi wrote:

As this is a slightly more than tangential relation,

What about in space? In the vacuum of space, do extra senses (i.e. scent, sound, etc..) get inhibited by the lack of a medium to travel through?

That's actually covered in the book under Vacuum. Or maybe under Blindsense? I don't have the quote on me at the moment, but many of the blindsenses do not function in a vacuum. The rules do note that some may function such as ones based off of detecting emotions.

First up:

Vacuum, CRB 394 wrote:

The void of space is effectively empty of matter, and this vacuum is perhaps the greatest danger of outer space. A creature introduced to a vacuum immediately begins to suffocate (see Suffocation and Drowning on page 404) and takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage per round (no saving throw). Because a vacuum has no effective temperature, the void of outer space presents no dangers from cold temperatures. A creature retains its body heat for several hours in a vacuum. Sound doesn’t travel in a vacuum.

It seems common sense that smell and vibrations do not, either.

Related:

Incorporeal, CRB 264 wrote:
Any sense (including blindsense or blindsight) based on scent, sound, or touch is ineffective at perceiving incorporeal creatures.

And voila!

Blindsight, CRB 263 wrote:

Blindsight is still limited in many ways compared to normal vision. Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast, though it might be able to make out other features depending on the sense. A creature cannot read written text with blindsight, though it could still use tactile communication. Blindsight works underwater and in fog or smoke, but it typically does not work in a vacuum (although this depends on the nature of the sense; for instance, emotion-based blindsight would work in a vacuum).

So things depending on a physical medium are out of luck, emotion or lifesense still work.

I think it follows from this that if armor is hermetically sealed during environmental protections certain forms of blindsight/sense would not work, but it's not necessary to say that environmental protections definitely are hermetically sealed. Certainly sound could still work through speaker systems (and almost certainly do) allowing you to hear/speak while sealed up in an atmosphere. I'm less happy with allowing smells, but magitech air filtering yadda yadda.

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