Counteract Examples


Rules Discussion


I would like a couple of examples of counteracting in action. Thank you very much.

Quote:


Counteracting

Some effects try to counteract spells, afflictions, conditions, or other effects. Counteract checks compare the power of two forces and determine which defeats the other. Successfully counteracting an effect ends it unless noted otherwise.

When attempting a counteract check, add the relevant skill modifier or other appropriate modifier to your check against the target’s DC. If you’re counteracting an affliction, the DC is in the affliction’s stat block. If it’s a spell, use the caster’s DC. The GM can also calculate a DC based on the target effect’s level. For spells, the counteract check modifier is your spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus, plus any bonuses and penalties that specifically apply to counteract checks. What you can counteract depends on the check result and the target’s level. If an effect is a spell, its level is the counteract level.

Otherwise, halve its level and round up to determine its counteract level. If an effect’s level is unclear and it came from a creature, halve and round up the creature’s level.

Critical Success Counteract the target if its counteract level is no more than 3 levels higher than your effect’s counteract level.

Success Counteract the target if its counteract level is no more than 1 level higher than your effect’s counteract level.

Failure Counteract the target if its counteract level is lower than your effect’s counteract level.

Critical Failure You fail to counteract the target.

https://pf2.d20pfsrd.com/rules/playing-the-game/#Counteracting

So you make a Medicine check to counteract an affliction, a "spellcasting check" to counteract a spell/effect and so on.

When a hazard of some sort tries to counteract you (there aren't any "Dispel Magic Trap" in the rulebook) it has to specify an "attack modifier", and your "save" (not a save) DC is, what? Your spellcasting ability modifier (which only some classes are trained in)? Your class ability (again, not all classes are trained in this)?

If I have a monster or hazard as the GM, I can simply give it a DC based on its level. But player characters? I have read this many times but cannot for the life figure out what DC to use (that all characters are competent in).

Please illustrate any answers with an actual example. Thank you.


Okay, I’m admittedly too lazy to think up a full-fledged example, but something to keep in mind is that all classes are trained in EITHER a spell tradition or in a class DC, so it would depend on the class you’re talking about (e.g. the warpriest’s Third Doctrine gives them critical specializations, but says to use their divine spell DC for it because it normally uses class DC, which clerics lack).

That said, things like Medicine checks go against the DC of the affliction you’re counteracting, and dispel checks against the spell DC of the creature that created it (in the case of a magic item, it would be a standard DC for that item’s level).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Lets say that my party has entered a cavern with the light cantrip cast on the fighter's shield. Light doesn't formally have a DC, but as a cantrip it will heighten to the highest level spell that the wizard can cast. Lets say they are a level 4 party so it would be a level 2 spell, and would have the wizard's Spell DC which might reasonably be 20 at this point (Trained+level+attribute+10 = 2+4+4+10).

In the cave is a level 5 Villain with the ability to cast chilling darkness, which targets the fighter, because the spell passes through the magical light, it gets to try to counteract it. The villain attempts a spell counteract against the DC 20, level 2 light spell. Since chilling darkness is a level 3 spell, the light effect will be dispelled on failure or better (because a failure on a counteract check will negate lower level spells), meaning that the villain only need to roll a 10 to counteract, which is probably going to be very easy. If the party was 7th level, and the light spell was heightened to level 4, then it could still be counteracted on a success, but the check would be against a much higher DC, likely Expert, so 4+7+4+10 = 25. If the party was 9th level and the light was heightened to level 5, it would take a critical success for the spell to counter act it.

Is that an example you were looking for?

Verdant Wheel

I think of my Counteract Level as how big of bat I have.

Then, my foe's Counteract Level as how big of ball they have.

Then I roll to swing.


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rainzax wrote:

I think of my Counteract Level as how big of bat I have.

Then, my foe's Counteract Level as how big of ball they have.

Then I roll to swing.

I was really confused about this until I realized you were talking about baseball and not bat swarms. XD


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Couple examples:
Enemy casts Grim Tendrils (lv2), a spell I have prepared at lv1. Having Counterspell, I spend the spell slot as a reaction and roll a spell check against the enemy's DC. Because the enemy Tendrils is only one level higher than mine, I can counteract it with a regular Success.

A magical trap triggered midway through an encounter, casting a summoning spell and conjuring a beast (a handy way for the GM to slightly nerf the creature, thanks to the Minion trait). Being a wizard, I can use Dispel Magic to get rid of it - however, the spell is a Summon V, and I only have Dispel Magic at lv2. My spell check must critically succeed against the trap's spell DC for me to banish the creature.

I cast Invisibility while under Nondetection (lv3). The enemy has See Invisibility (lv2). Because Nondetection counteracts all Revelations, I roll a spell check against the enemy's spell DC. Because See Invisibility is lower level than my Nondetection, I am only revealed if I critically fail my Counteract.

KingTreyIII wrote:
rainzax wrote:

I think of my Counteract Level as how big of bat I have.

Then, my foe's Counteract Level as how big of ball they have.

Then I roll to swing.

I was really confused about this until I realized you were talking about baseball and not bat swarms. XD

Honestly if it was reversed (your Counteract level being how big the ball is, and the foe's Counteract Level being the size of the bat) you could make it work. At least here in Australia.

//do not actually harm the bats, they're important and already dying enough, even outside the fires//


Thank you.

Unicore wrote:

Lets say that my party has entered a cavern with the light cantrip cast on the fighter's shield. Light doesn't formally have a DC, but as a cantrip it will heighten to the highest level spell that the wizard can cast. Lets say they are a level 4 party so it would be a level 2 spell, and would have the wizard's Spell DC which might reasonably be 20 at this point (Trained+level+attribute+10 = 2+4+4+10).

In the cave is a level 5 Villain with the ability to cast chilling darkness, which targets the fighter, because the spell passes through the magical light, it gets to try to counteract it. The villain attempts a spell counteract against the DC 20, level 2 light spell. Since chilling darkness is a level 3 spell, the light effect will be dispelled on failure or better (because a failure on a counteract check will negate lower level spells), meaning that the villain only need to roll a 10 to counteract, which is probably going to be very easy. If the party was 7th level, and the light spell was heightened to level 4, then it could still be counteracted on a success, but the check would be against a much higher DC, likely Expert, so 4+7+4+10 = 25. If the party was 9th level and the light was heightened to level 5, it would take a critical success for the spell to counter act it.

Is that an example you were looking for?

I believe so.

Or rather, I was probably getting confused when looking at improvised examples. I you "dispel someone" you can't just look at that someone's level to approximate the dispel/counteract DC (since even a level 20 fighter will have a laughable DC). You must find the originating caster's or item's level.

I guess the crux of the issue is the weird dichotomy between class DC and spellcasting DC. Some classes (martials) aren't trained in the latter (super crappy) while others (casters) aren't trained in the former.


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Ediwir wrote:

Couple examples:

Enemy casts Grim Tendrils (lv2), a spell I have prepared at lv1. Having Counterspell, I spend the spell slot as a reaction and roll a spell check against the enemy's DC. Because the enemy Tendrils is only one level higher than mine, I can counteract it with a regular Success.

A magical trap triggered midway through an encounter, casting a summoning spell and conjuring a beast (a handy way for the GM to slightly nerf the creature, thanks to the Minion trait). Being a wizard, I can use Dispel Magic to get rid of it - however, the spell is a Summon V, and I only have Dispel Magic at lv2. My spell check must critically succeed against the trap's spell DC for me to banish the creature.

I cast Invisibility while under Nondetection (lv3). The enemy has See Invisibility (lv2). Because Nondetection counteracts all Revelations, I roll a spell check against the enemy's spell DC. Because See Invisibility is lower level than my Nondetection, I am only revealed if I critically fail my Counteract.

KingTreyIII wrote:
rainzax wrote:

I think of my Counteract Level as how big of bat I have.

Then, my foe's Counteract Level as how big of ball they have.

Then I roll to swing.

I was really confused about this until I realized you were talking about baseball and not bat swarms. XD

Honestly if it was reversed (your Counteract level being how big the ball is, and the foe's Counteract Level being the size of the bat) you could make it work. At least here in Australia.

//do not actually harm the bats, they're important and already dying enough, even outside the fires//

Great example Ediwir particularly the Non-Detection one! I'm running a character who plans on getting heightened Invisibility and Non-Detection, would you suggest always Heightening Non-Detection to it's highest level or are there certain levels where it's better than others? For example would you need a level 7 Non-Detection to overcome True Seeing would it work like your example for See Invisibility?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Counteracting Tutorial Video


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I think unless you’re facing Divination specialty there are a few breakpoint levels for Nondetection, based on your spell availability and the divinations you plan on blocking.

You usually want one level lower than what you’re afraid of, or one level higher than what you badly need to prevent.

Verdant Wheel

Ravingdork wrote:
Counteracting Tutorial Video

Ok they went with Bucket vs. Campfire. Nice.

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