Currently as the game stands it is fairly well balanced with of course the odd exception (hello mutagenist). There has been a lot of debate over casters and martials, and no this is not a debate on how hard casters have been nerfed, I'm here to find out something. Something of grave importance. Something so important if you were driving your car right now and surfing these forums on your phone you should pull over right now. What I speak of is if you were to construct a team (4 party members) from scratch, who would your number 1 draft pick be, who would you base your entire party around, who's the real MVP?
There was a discussion about ideal 4 character party, and the one seen in all parties was the Bard. Seconded by the Cleric. Martials were often called martials, so, despite being in every party, there was no class specified.
For me it would depend on the campaign
Social and City Campaing -> Bard or Rogue
Wilderness -> Druid, Ranger or Barbarian
Dungeon Crawler -> Cleric, Healdruid or Paladin
I honestly feel like Paizo went waaaay too far with the Bard. It’s the living embodiment of the whole jack of all trades quote, including the part “But better than a master of just one,” section. Sure, it’s not the best martial class, but it’s no slouch, and Inspire Heroics/Courage/Defense is a thing.
It’s a ten level caster.
Not the best at skills? Nope! But not any worse than any class not named Rogue or Investigator, and Inspire Competence is, again, a thing.
Hell, at really high levels Bards can do something that literally no other class can do using the Polymath feat line, and cast spells from potentially ANY power source.
So sure, Bards aren’t the best at any one thing, except for being able to do anything, and having a Cantrip Focus spell that doesn’t use Focus Points, to make them either really reaaaaaally good at it or just plain as good as the best when they need to be.
I'd probably try to snag the Fighter first, but Bard close second! No point in having the mighty infinite use Inspire Courage without someone to put the buff on!
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The one problem I have with bards as the universal best class, is that it is easy to build one not best at supporting their particular party. Inspire courage becomes more and more amazing based upon the number of attack rolls the party makes in a round. Having one martial character in the party, and three casters that tend toward saving throw magic and the scoundrel rogue become the party's secret hero.
Overall, I'd say that PF2 is pretty good at not having a solitary MVP, but promoting some discussion of players before starting a campaign, because knowing what other characters are bringing to the table allows you to build really great synergistic teams, but assuming X character will always be the best/most useful can lead to TPKs relatively easily. Especially in challenging campaigns/modules like Fall of Plaguestone.
All that said, it seems hard to go wrong building the rest of the party around a bard, or a martial character that assumes the striker role. Different ones will need different kinds of support though.
The one problem I have with bards as the universal best class, is that it is easy to build one not best at supporting their particular party. Inspire courage becomes more and more amazing based upon the number of attack rolls the party makes in a round. Having one martial character in the party, and three casters that tend toward saving throw magic and the scoundrel rogue become the party's secret hero.
Overall, I'd say that PF2 is pretty good at not having a solitary MVP, but promoting some discussion of players before starting a campaign, because knowing what other characters are bringing to the table allows you to build really great synergistic teams, but assuming X character will always be the best/most useful can lead to TPKs relatively easily. Especially in challenging campaigns/modules like Fall of Plaguestone.
All that said, it seems hard to go wrong building the rest of the party around a bard, or a martial character that assumes the striker role. Different ones will need different kinds of support though.
Dirge of Doom makes for a really great replacement for casters. Really, it is a stronger option by default except for the smaller range. But the power of either composition will vary based on what other buffs and debuffs are available.
What makes the Bard a bit too good is that he's the only one able to give high status bonuses in a reliable way (Heroism is just to expensive for a spell slot, Bless has a ridiculous area...).
When there will be alternate spells to do that, the Bard will get more in line.
Would a rogue that took the bard archetype and focused on getting the cantrips be a viable bard alternative?
I suspect not having Inspire Courage at 1st level would hurt too much.
I wonder,could you put together a viable 4 person party (a 4 piece band!),made up of nothing but bards?
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Fighter.
Because then everyone else can play anything else while the Fighter manages the flow of encounter mode with their reliably high damage output and battlefield control mechanic that is Attack of Opportunity, plus whatever class feats they choose.
The fighter finally does this:
Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them.
Would a rogue that took the bard archetype and focused on getting the cantrips be a viable bard alternative?
I suspect not having Inspire Courage at 1st level would hurt too much.I wonder,could you put together a viable 4 person party (a 4 piece band!),made up of nothing but bards?
In my opinion, it's nice (I'm doing that with my Rogue). But very costly if you want to go the Inspire Courage route. You need Bard Dedication, Inspire Courage, Basic Muse's Whisper, Counter Perform (for the focus pool) and Inspire Heroics. 5 feats is not nothing. If you want to stop at Lingering Composition, you still need 4 feats.
In my opinion, it's nice (I'm doing that with my Rogue). But very costly if you want to go the Inspire Courage route. You need Bard Dedication, Inspire Courage, Basic Muse's Whisper, Counter Perform (for the focus pool) and Inspire Heroics. 5 feats is not nothing. If you want to stop at Lingering Composition, you still need 4 feats.
If you are playing a class with a Focus pool, then Counter Perform is optional. Obviously not the case with Rogues, but about half the classes get them.
Out of curiosity, what did you end up taking with Basic Muse's Whisper? I'm guessing Inspire Competence, since Lingering Composition will be rather unloved once you get to Inspire Heroics. I'm trying to decide between the Compositions route and the spellcasting route for my MC Bard. (I'm coming from Druid, so Counter Perform isn't required).