Can a 20th level character became a Vampire?


Rules Discussion


It is ruled that character has a level from 1st to 20th.

Creating Vampire says (bestiary):
- Increase your character level by one.

a) what if a 20th level character became a vampire?

b) does his character level go to 21?

c) if he was lv 19 cleric when he turned into a vampire, can he still attain lv 20 cleric while being a vampire? Or hes stuck at lv 19?

Sovereign Court

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They are primarily for NPC guidelines I would say, to let you know their comparative power. PCs would have to go through GM fiddling to work.


Ellias Aubec wrote:
They are primarily for NPC guidelines I would say, to let you know their comparative power. PCs would have to go through GM fiddling to work.

The guideline is for PC characters as well, the book says. Does anybody know if Paizo devs positioned themselves regarding this?

Its a very straightforward question.


After reading the rules in the Bestiary I feel like they are written from the perspective of using the rules with the monster creation rules, despite the sidebar indicating that you could use these rules to create a PC vampire.

So the answer to your question is: Whatever you think is fair when applied to a Player Character. If you decide to increase their level by one, then by all means have them level their character. If they are already at level 20, use 21 as their proficiency bonus. Since rules for leveling past 20 aren't a thing that I am aware of, they wouldn't gain any additional skill feats or training unless you grant it to them.

That being said I would personally omit any of the changes to Level, AC, DC's and Skill Modifiers. Edit: This is mostly for character balance purposes. Putting them ahead of the curve, especially if they are the only player in a party receiving such a boon, could have unintended negative consequences in a campaign. With how tight the math is in this edition a bonus of 1 to everything is actually reasonably significant. That being said; if you feel that you can handle the issue, or are building a party of Vampires who would all gain the benefit, feel free to include all of the bonuses as written. Just know that most combats are going to feel just a touch on the easier side due to the increased numbers.

I would apply the damage bonus to strikes with the exception of weapon based ranged attacks like Crossbows or normal bows that don't gain damage from Strength. This is not supported by the rules specifically, but again I believe these rules are largely intended to be used for monsters, so shouldn't apply carte blanche to PC's.

I would apply the indicated bonus to Saves (you could argue that the bonus should only apply to Fort and maybe Reflex saves, but largely it is easier to apply them to all of them.) and use the Health reduction/ DR as is presented on the table.

Then give them all of the basic Vampire Abilities and you are done. Compulsions should be worked out with the player but definitely include them. They add flavor and possible role play opportunities as long as they aren't too ridiculous.

It should be noted that due to the standard Revulsions and their alignment usually shifting to evil, a Cleric of a non-evil god would probably lose their Cleric magic and associated powers as though they had broken their gods Anathema unless you specifically allow them to ignore both. Even a good aligned vampire would suffer from the Holy Symbol revulsion without GM fiat.


beowulf99 wrote:

After reading the rules in the Bestiary I feel like they are written from the perspective of using the rules with the monster creation rules, despite the sidebar indicating that you could use these rules to create a PC vampire.

So the answer to your question is: Whatever you think is fair when applied to a Player Character. If you decide to increase their level by one, then by all means have them level their character. If they are already at level 20, use 21 as their proficiency bonus. Since rules for leveling past 20 aren't a thing that I am aware of, they wouldn't gain any additional skill feats or training unless you grant it to them.

That being said I would personally omit any of the changes to Level, AC, DC's and Skill Modifiers. Edit: This is mostly for character balance purposes. Putting them ahead of the curve, especially if they are the only player in a party receiving such a boon, could have unintended negative consequences in a campaign. With how tight the math is in this edition a bonus of 1 to everything is actually reasonably significant. That being said; if you feel that you can handle the issue, or are building a party of Vampires who would all gain the benefit, feel free to include all of the bonuses as written. Just know that most combats are going to feel just a touch on the easier side due to the increased numbers.

I would apply the damage bonus to strikes with the exception of weapon based ranged attacks like Crossbows or normal bows that don't gain damage from Strength. This is not supported by the rules specifically, but again I believe these rules are largely intended to be used for monsters, so shouldn't apply carte blanche to PC's.

I would apply the indicated bonus to Saves (you could argue that the bonus should only apply to Fort and maybe Reflex saves, but largely it is easier to apply them to all of them.) and use the Health reduction/ DR as is presented on the table.

Then give them all of the basic Vampire Abilities and you are done. Compulsions should be worked out...

Thats exactly how i feel and ill definitely do it in a similar way if i have to. Thanks that's very helpful!!

(..) But also id'like to know also if there is any official position regarding this issue or if they talked about it in any live or interview or errata whatever (and i don't think any developer will ever answer this) /sad


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Bublitz wrote:
But also id'like to know also if there is any official position regarding this issue or if they talked about it in any live or interview or errata whatever (and i don't think any developer will ever answer this)

The official position is that players cannot become a vampire without GM say so. If the GM wants to allow/is telling a vampire PC story they can use the 'creating a vampire' guidelines in the bestiary to do so.

As they are guidelines, and not hard rules, there will likely never be any official step by step guide to adding vampire abilities to a level 20 character. There is no need for one. The GM gets to decide how they want to do it.


Bublitz wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:

After reading the rules in the Bestiary I feel like they are written from the perspective of using the rules with the monster creation rules, despite the sidebar indicating that you could use these rules to create a PC vampire.

So the answer to your question is: Whatever you think is fair when applied to a Player Character. If you decide to increase their level by one, then by all means have them level their character. If they are already at level 20, use 21 as their proficiency bonus. Since rules for leveling past 20 aren't a thing that I am aware of, they wouldn't gain any additional skill feats or training unless you grant it to them.

That being said I would personally omit any of the changes to Level, AC, DC's and Skill Modifiers. Edit: This is mostly for character balance purposes. Putting them ahead of the curve, especially if they are the only player in a party receiving such a boon, could have unintended negative consequences in a campaign. With how tight the math is in this edition a bonus of 1 to everything is actually reasonably significant. That being said; if you feel that you can handle the issue, or are building a party of Vampires who would all gain the benefit, feel free to include all of the bonuses as written. Just know that most combats are going to feel just a touch on the easier side due to the increased numbers.

I would apply the damage bonus to strikes with the exception of weapon based ranged attacks like Crossbows or normal bows that don't gain damage from Strength. This is not supported by the rules specifically, but again I believe these rules are largely intended to be used for monsters, so shouldn't apply carte blanche to PC's.

I would apply the indicated bonus to Saves (you could argue that the bonus should only apply to Fort and maybe Reflex saves, but largely it is easier to apply them to all of them.) and use the Health reduction/ DR as is presented on the table.

Then give them all of the basic Vampire Abilities and you are done.

...

I can't help with that as I don't watch every interview/post that a developer has posted. Just remember that at it's core any RPG rule set is modifiable. If something doesn't make sense to you, you have every right to run it how you like at your table. My #1 rule, unless I'm specifically trying out a "vanilla" rules system like in the Playtest for example, is not to sweat the small stuff and do what is fun/ fair for the party.


Garretmander wrote:

The official position is that players cannot become a vampire without GM say so. If the GM wants to allow/is telling a vampire PC story they can use the 'creating a vampire' guidelines in the bestiary to do so.

As they are guidelines, and not hard rules, there will likely never be any official step by step guide to adding vampire abilities to a level 20 character. There is no need for one. The GM gets to decide how they want to do it.

This is the obvious statement. Nothing happens without GM saying so.

The guideline is there for monsters and players alike (so says in the book). I dont want to get into a egg/chicken discussion, but the "there is no need for one" statement is not true. It just happened to need a better wording for this. Maybe is not priority, but its definitely needed.

Anyways,
The step-by-step thing exists, but happens to collide with the definition of Character Level.
The way it is now, yes, the GM decides how to handle it... i was hoping i could use less "interpretation" and more ruling, thats all.

I appreciate the answer :)) i feel the same way about "guideline" thing.
I just want to know if there is anything anywhere that helps me close the matter in a official way. It seems not :((


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well under earn income if something happens to allow the check to be over level 20 (level 20 job with crit success) they call it level 20+. It also continues the pattern of increase with gains. So I would use that as a guide. That being said, this is a 100% it's up to the gm situation and for then to decide how they want it to count. Since there are many ways it could be ruled for each table then there can not be a set guide for this very specific situation.


I have a similar situation in the current game I am hosting. The vampire creation rules states:

"All vampires gain the following abilities. If the base creature has any abilities that specifically come from it being a living creature, it loses them. It also loses any traits that represented its life as a living creature, such as human and humanoid."

Does this mean a human player character loses all feats related to the human trait? So far I decided to remove all heritage- and ancestry-feats (which works fine) but I am wondering if he should lose his class traits as well (since they, in a way, represent its life as a living creature)?
However, this would basically break any PC build turned into a vampire.

I would like to know what is the original idea/mechanism behind the vampire creation rule (since we are sticking to the rules as close as possible).

Many Thanks. I am looking forward to your witty replies.

Edit: Spelling


CoolGuyMe wrote:

I have a similar situation in the current game I am hosting. The vampire creation rules states:

"All vampires gain the following abilities. If the base creature has any abilities that specifically come from it being a living creature, it loses them. It also loses any traits that represented its life as a living creature, such as human and humanoid."

Does this mean a human player character loses all feats related to the human trait? So far I decided to remove all heritage- and ancestry-feats (which works fine) but I am wondering if he should lose his class traits as well (since they, in a way, represent its life as a living creature)?
However, this would basically break any PC build turned into a vampire.

I would like to know what is the original idea/mechanism behind the vampire creation rule (since we are sticking to the rules as close as possible).

Many Thanks. I am looking forward to your witty replies.

Edit: Spelling

They probably shouldn't lose any. They're human trait feats, not living human traits. Vampires can still see, still move their dead muscles, still remember some parts of their life, etc.

There are some that make sense to remove, as they function specifically on biological means rather than training/upbringing. Orc ferocity, and gnome's life giving magic, but in general a vampire should keep all their feats, including ancestry ones.

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