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As per the header, because the term 'rebuild' has some loaded connotations, what sort of framework can we reasonably put together outside of the box to figure out how to fairly balance the introduction of newer options that fit established characters better?
The point of this thread is to try and come up with a fair balanced system that's approachable from the most casual to the most veteran of players. In so doing, we'll hopefully 'future-proof' SFS versus the patchwork methodology that permeated PFS1.
And yes, I'm trying to put something together, solicit thoughts, and maybe hack something together that the OrgPlay team can use moving forwards for not only SFS but maybe even PF2.
Thank you very much for your time in advance!
My first thought on the topic: Tying it to Fame/Reputation/Credits -- while it seems like it would be a good idea, it doesn't help those who play rarely enough that they don't have a lot of same.
With leveled items, it's hard to spend the wealth that needs to be carefully guided to higher levels.
Solution: Instead of linking it to an in-game currency or meta-currency, what if there's a given number of scenarios that would allow such a rebuild, to prevent a 'rebuild every scenario to answer the mission needs'?
Possible Drawback: Still doesn't help folks who don't play enough to reach said given number of scenarios if the number is set too high.
If this is out of line and OrgPlay already has a Plan, please forgive the ignorance of this student.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I have been toying with this idea for quite some time, maybe it will help the discussion.
Since we generally do not ask players when/how they have assigned feats or skills, the PFS2 model does not quite work, so I would suggest the following.
Make a snapshot of the current character, then start rebuilding the character from scratch. After you are done, pay an amount of Fame/other limited currently for each change.
Different Feat X points
Reassign X skill points Y points
Different alternate racial X points ... etc.
This way you would still have an incentive to stay relatively close to your original character, but you could fix some minor mistakes.
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I have been toying with this idea for quite some time, maybe it will help the discussion.
Since we generally do not ask players when/how they have assigned feats or skills, the PFS2 model does not quite work, so I would suggest the following.
Make a snapshot of the current character, then start rebuilding the character from scratch. After you are done, pay an amount of Fame/other limited currently for each change.
Different Feat X points
Reassign X skill points Y points
Different alternate racial X points ... etc.This way you would still have an incentive to stay relatively close to your original character, but you could fix some minor mistakes.
That works to a given juncture, but still penalizes folks who are past the L2 window and don't have enough 'points' to pay for all the changes all at once.
So folks may have to play a character for multiple sessions (that desperately needs to be rebuilt) to *bank* the points to be able to change the character, or play a bunch of pregens and assign credit to said character, etc.
Neither one of these options are really good ideas for supporting character creation in OrgPlay.
James: I was thinking in a slightly different way, perhaps number of games played+number of games GM'dx2/10 (But can't be less than 1) per calendar year for a given player? Yes, I double-weighted a GM'd game there, because GMing is hard work (sometimes) and should be rewarded.
In addition, the idea of a 'rebuild' instead of a 'replay' for GM novas might be an option?
Still throwing stuff at the wall, thank you for chiming in so far!
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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I do like the idea of introducing LIMITED rebuilding to the game to help with Option Envy even as I actually enjoy Starfinders relative commitment to seeing your characters through organically.
That said if we do introduce something like this I beg of you to do so in a way that does not further increase the administrative load for players and GMs.
SFS and PFS2 are already among the heaviest and least agile living campaigns I've played in with the number of meta currencies and the like in play.
I think as a slotless boon to swap one feat for another or one racial feature for another is a good idea and that the cost should scale with level to discourage completely changing the complexion of an established character.
Just don't build out any extra campaign infrastructure for this please
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'm making notes on what a moderate and practical retraining system could look like.
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Please tell me if I've overlooked something that it should cover:
* Retrain a choice in a feat (skill focus A to skill focus B)
* Retrain a feat into a different feat
* Retrain a major class choice (soldier style, operative specialization, mystic connection)
* Retrain a minor class choice (operative exploit, envoy improvization, witchwarper paradigm shift)
* Retrain a level in a class into a different class
* Adopt or drop an archetype
* Change a spell known (maybe not necessary since this is already provided for into the spells known class feature)
* Redistribute skill points
* Change a choice in your theme (what kind of Icon are you?)
(Timing with regards to leveling up: does retraining happen before/after XP and applying new levels? Whatever rule is made for this, it should be really clear.)
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Some things that I think should probably not be covered:
* Adopt or drop an alternate racial feature. (This goes from "retraining" into "rebuilding"; might not be desirable. Retraining can be explained as going back to school. Rebuilding is retroactively changing the past. Changing a racial feature might make for a good boon though.)
* Change your theme. Again, this is changing the past.
* Change a choice of level 5/10/15/20 ability score increases. I'm skeptical about allowing this because you could leave an 18 at 18 at level 5, but retroactively change it to 19 and then 20 when you get to do level 10 ability boosts.
* Change how you spent your level 1 ability points. I don't like this one because you could start with an 18 but retroactively turn it into a 16 just before you apply level 5 ability boosts.
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I would accept that *if* the option that *better fit the original character design by a signficant margin* wasn't present.
Unfortunately, there's no current way to make this a reality as she's freshly at L5.
Also unfortunately, given the way travel is looking for this coming year, I'll be *lucky* to make it to PaizoCon, and then the rest of the year is shot.
Gate-locking it behind a rare 'convention-gm Boon' is a bit harsh.
If we can develop a system that fairly and evenly allows players to draw upon the full mutability and capability of Starfinder without codifying it to the gills as PFS1 did, that'd be ideal.
After all, wasn't one of the design philosophies 'infinite character variation' within given abilities? ie, someone could be using a magic spell or a tech or a racial or whatnot to 'flavor' their abilities?
Aside from this: Lau, I think your rebuild/retrain are a good idea to start with, but with the amount of resources available in the Starfinder universe I'd like to think that being able to change one's self or one's abilities should be *more* accessible rather than less, a la 'Eclipse Phase'.
We don't have these skills locked behind years and years of training and skill in ancient medieval castles, but the extramodern SpehsNet where anyone can learn anything in record time.
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DING
"... I know kungfu "
DING
"why do I now have skill focus: knowledge my sacharine equine instead of kung fu??!? "
"Yer check bounced. "
I thought the off-brand was "Your Diminutive Equine?" Oh well, live and learn. Also, don't look at my aliases. I totally don't have an OG PF1 Venture Captain Summoner who's Eidolon is a My little pony! Why did you even bring that up?
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville
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I thought the off-brand was "Your Diminutive Equine?" Oh well, live and learn. Also, don't look at my aliases. I totally don't have an OG PF1 Venture Captain Summoner who's Eidolon is a My little pony! Why did you even bring that up?DING
"... I know kungfu "
DING
"why do I now have skill focus: knowledge my sacharine equine instead of kung fu??!? "
"Yer check bounced. "
Because...
I ran into one summoner who used her Eidion (which was a MLP) figure as a trap detector and such.. it was horrific watching Derpy trip trap after trap and get sent down a well ...
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I'm making notes on what a moderate and practical retraining system could look like.
---
Please tell me if I've overlooked something that it should cover:
* Retrain a choice in a feat (skill focus A to skill focus B)
* Retrain a feat into a different feat
* Retrain a major class choice (soldier style, operative specialization, mystic connection)
* Retrain a minor class choice (operative exploit, envoy improvization, witchwarper paradigm shift)
* Retrain a level in a class into a different class
* Adopt or drop an archetype
* Change a spell known (maybe not necessary since this is already provided for into the spells known class feature)
* Redistribute skill points
* Change a choice in your theme (what kind of Icon are you?)(Timing with regards to leveling up: does retraining happen before/after XP and applying new levels? Whatever rule is made for this, it should be really clear.)
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Some things that I think should probably not be covered:
* Adopt or drop an alternate racial feature. (This goes from "retraining" into "rebuilding"; might not be desirable. Retraining can be explained as going back to school. Rebuilding is retroactively changing the past. Changing a racial feature might make for a good boon though.)
* Change your theme. Again, this is changing the past.
* Change a choice of level 5/10/15/20 ability score increases. I'm skeptical about allowing this because you could leave an 18 at 18 at level 5, but retroactively change it to 19 and then 20 when you get to do level 10 ability boosts.
* Change how you spent your level 1 ability points. I don't like this one because you could start with an 18 but retroactively turn it into a 16 just before you apply level 5 ability boosts.
And you need room to address options that stipulate "Once chosen you may never change it".
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I thought the off-brand was "Your Diminutive Equine?" Oh well, live and learn. Also, don't look at my aliases. I totally don't have an OG PF1 Venture Captain Summoner who's Eidolon is a My little pony! Why did you even bring that up?DING
"... I know kungfu "
DING
"why do I now have skill focus: knowledge my sacharine equine instead of kung fu??!? "
"Yer check bounced. "Because...
I ran into one summoner who used her Eidion (which was a MLP) figure as a trap detector and such.. it was horrific watching Derpy trip trap after trap and get sent down a well ...
That . . . is not the true meaning of friendship. I rode mine into battle with wheeling lance charges.
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I don't really like the idea of all this talk of rebuilding because if it becomes too easy, then character decisions have no importance.
I believe that the choices you make about your character will always have importance because you are only allowed to make so many choices. If a theme is released that fits a character concept I have more than the one I may have chosen when the game was first released, if I want to change to the new "theme", it doesn't change the fact that I ONLY get ONE theme.
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...some of us may not have the time to play/GM five to ten-ish additional characters that the new options will produce just to get those characters 'back up to the level' of the previous characters?
If the newer options fit the older characters *better* why can't they have them?
Was the Starfinder Society specifically screening their applicants to this point for 'only Core attributes'?
ie, "You MUST be at least THIS strong as a Kasatha, Korasha Lashunta, or Vesk... but don't worry, if you're any other race you don't have to meet those requirements to join the Society. And future recruits won't be held to that standard."
I realize that there are headaches involved with this no matter how this is will be approached.
'Just make a new character' ranks up there with the 'Well, just GM more ' as far as reasons to not approach and address the concern.
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My hope would be for every ten games GM'd, because linking it to Novas could be... problematic for GMs who don't have the ability to GM that much, if we were going to link like that. Totally Selfish Truth-in-Text: That way I'd at least get one.
Benefit: Might encourage folks to GM more.
Drawback: May drive folks away from campaign in total if it's gated like that.
RSP does very little for me, so I'd leave that to wiser minds who know of it better to assess the viability there?
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Gated? How many complete rebuilds does a person need? It is only 10 games for the 1st star. And if it was an optional RSP boon as well, That'd give a person more than enough non-Con opportunities to get complete rebuilds.
I focus on complete rebuilds because, to do partway behind a credit barrier roughs up credit balance of wbl, which SF leaves a lot less wiggle room than PF1.
And, to me, any rebuild option other than the mnemonic editors might as well be a complete rebuild.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'm not such a fan of gating it behind novas because:
1) it doesn't scale with the number of characters someone has; in fact, someone with a lot of novas probably has some GM blobs sitting7 around
2) it limits it too much to people who GM a lot. While I do want GMs to feel appreciated, I don't want to lock stuff behind GMing. Even race boons can be given to people who (for whatever reason) mostly play. Locking this behind novas would be too rigid for that.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'm just picking this one particular post to respond to because it's nice and concise - other people have said similar things.
I don't really like the idea of all this talk of rebuilding because if it becomes too easy, then character decisions have no importance.
I think the key here is "too easy". I wouldn't really like it either if people were completely rebuilding all the time. But on the other hand, I think the current system makes it too hard.
One of my players picked a feat randomly because he couldn't be bothered before a game session, and said " I can just mnemonic editor it later if I don't like it." The decision didn't matter.
I could interpret this in a number of ways. Maybe the game was about to start and the player hadn't had time yet to do a book dive to find a feat he wanted? Real life gets in the way sometimes, or you're rushing from slot to slot at a convention.
You're casting what he did very negatively, but consider the alternatives:
- Hold up the beginning of the game while he agonized over what feat to pick.
- Not play, because he hadn't finished upgrading his character.
- Play a pregen to postpone the decision. But to be honest, most of the SFS pregens are rather weak and aren't much help in a higher level scenario.
- Play a different character. But perhaps this is the character that did the previous adventure that keys into the current one. Or this is the character that's in-tier with the other characters.
So a lot of reasons why just picking out a feat at random could have been the lesser evil.
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A common thread in a lot of posts opposed to retraining seems to be that if other people are getting to change their characters, it devalues the work you put into building yours.
And that's not entirely wrong, but you have to keep it proportional. You shouldn't make other people unhappy so that you feel validated in your own efforts. Mostly, the value of your efforts should be that you like your character, not that you like your character in comparison to others who are saddled with worse ones.
Researching character builds is fun and when I come up with something exotic that works well I also feel proud. But that shouldn't drift into telling other people that it's their own fault if they didn't do all the research in advance. Then it becomes some kind of moralistic school lesson about doing homework.
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So what we need is a balanced retraining system: not too much, but also not too little. And in my opinion, the current system does too little. Classes are too loaded with "choose once, feel the full effects many levels later" choices for the "retrain only the last two levels" model to be a good fit.