Wrath of The Righteous Without Mythic?


Advice


So has anyone played the Wrath of The Righteous without mythic rules for the players?

Did the DM give the players anything to make up for the lack of mythic powers?


That seems like an odd way to play that AP. We just started WotR because it already has the mythic stuff pre-baked into it. If a group didn't want to play using mythic I imagine they would just play an AP that doesn't have it, instead of forcing the DM to do a bunch of extra prep work.


I haven't, but I have a shelved idea for a hypothetical group.

You make it clear you're kind of playing Pathfinder on hard mode. Then you do the AP vanilla, save for denying all mythic ranks to the PCs, with two exceptions. The first: should a PC die, they revive with +1 mythic rank.

The second: you plan different endings, ranked on a best to worst scale, then award a better ending the fewer mythic ranks were obtained.

It would take the right mentality, but I'd like to try that.


I've thought about it a lot. The mythic rules as written are ridiculous. I've even thought about reducing the mythic ranks (1 per book) but even then even a moderately intelligent party would crush every encounter presented after book 2.

The reason to run it without mythic is WotR is one of the best APs ever written (in my ever so humble opinion) but as written is unplayable...


Gestalt, feat per level, high point buy. If you don't delete mythic entirely, like from enemies too, then delete DR/epic or whatever it's called.

It will make an easy AP suddenly very tough - if it's doable at all, but it's the advice I always read.

The Exchange

It's insane the dumb things you do in that AP with mythic.

I enjoyed it but mythic is nonsense. Getting to do that nonsense was kind of the point. I cast miracle to pick things up. I rained gold from the sky. I made everything masterwork when I had nothing to do. I had an ally alive and fighting at -400 hp. To entertain someone I cut my self open and removed my insides.

Such an odd and fun adventure.

Maybe add levels instead of mythic tiers and give bonus stats when they would normally get them from mythic.


Mythic nonsense is half the fun. It's broken, and I think the campaign would function better when that ridiculousness is seen as natural and good rather than a failure of the system- which it totally is, but still.

As a few other posters have said, it would be really hard to remove the mythicality from this AP.


Another solution is to pick up Legendary Games' very good supplement "Mythic Solutions" (hence the name), which is essentially a book of minor tweaks to the mythic system with the intent of, while still retaining the obvious power boosts, toning down the upper end while giving multiple options as to how to fix it. (It also forces the obvious RAI for Mythic Vital Strike which is good.)


Anyone thought of adding a template to player characters such as advanced, celestial, half celestial, etc.?


GeneticDrift wrote:

It's insane the dumb things you do in that AP with mythic.

I enjoyed it but mythic is nonsense. Getting to do that nonsense was kind of the point. I cast miracle to pick things up. I rained gold from the sky. I made everything masterwork when I had nothing to do. I had an ally alive and fighting at -400 hp. To entertain someone I cut my self open and removed my insides.

Such an odd and fun adventure.

Maybe add levels instead of mythic tiers and give bonus stats when they would normally get them from mythic.

I played a campaign to Mythic tier 10 and I think I played a much different ruleset than you...


Dragon78 wrote:

So has anyone played the Wrath of The Righteous without mythic rules for the players?

Did the DM give the players anything to make up for the lack of mythic powers?

Gestalt works, and seems better balanced.


I’ve never played wrath but I feel like there are some obvious items you could take out/alter from Mythic to unbrake it.

Make sure Mythic vital strike multiple by the same amount as the none Mythic counterpart, not the number of dice rolling.

Gain half Mythic power after a rest, not full Mythic power.

Remove the extra standard from amazing initiative and half the initiative bonus.

Seriously change how recuperation works (seriously, the most powerful Mythic ability in my opinion. Like make it that you gain back one spell slot for each level of spell you can cast or something like that.

Seriously alter unstoppable immortal and legendary hero.

Then as your PCs take paths and feats take them case by case. Work with your players.

Or just embrace the crazy.

The danger I feel with Mythic is some players can really make full on God’s whilst others produce things no stronger than a well made regular character.

It seriously raises the optimisation ceiling massively but the floor doesn’t change all that much.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I’ve never played wrath but I feel like there are some obvious items you could take out/alter from Mythic to unbrake it.

Make sure Mythic vital strike multiple by the same amount as the none Mythic counterpart, not the number of dice rolling.

That is a very flawed interpretation to begin with.

Quote:

Gain half Mythic power after a rest, not full Mythic power.

Remove the extra standard from amazing initiative and half the initiative bonus.

I prefer the idea from Mythic Solutions. Make Amazing Initiative a tier 3 mythic power.

Quote:
Seriously change how recuperation works (seriously, the most powerful Mythic ability in my opinion. Like make it that you gain back one spell slot for each level of spell you can cast or something like that.

The most broken mythic power is Undetectable.

The second most broken power is Wild Arcana, which literally creates Schrodinger's wizard, after that is Foe Biter and all the abilities that change action economy.

Titan's bane is the one I am looking closely at right now.

Quote:

Seriously alter unstoppable immortal and legendary hero.

Then as your PCs take paths and feats take them case by case. Work with your players.

Or just embrace the crazy.

From a DM perspective, I just view it as interesting to try to balance encounters without turning everything into rocket tag.

I also implemented a lot of the changes from Mythic Solutions and banned Undetectable.

Quote:

The danger I feel with Mythic is some players can really make full on God’s whilst others produce things no stronger than a well made regular character.

It seriously raises the optimisation ceiling massively but the floor doesn’t change all that much.

I look at this as managing table expectations + learning curve for the players.

Even with Mythic, I have yet to have a player start thinking they a full on God. Just last month I had a level 11 tier 2 party get nearly crushed by a bunch of non-mythic CR 2 creatures. The month before that I dropped 3 out of 4 character's with STR penalties from Blasphemy (mythic raises APL, but not character level. Spells like Blasphemy become more dangerous because their effects are based on relative levels between the caster and the character, not APL)

The Exchange

yukongil wrote:
GeneticDrift wrote:

It's insane the dumb things you do in that AP with mythic.

I enjoyed it but mythic is nonsense. Getting to do that nonsense was kind of the point. I cast miracle to pick things up. I rained gold from the sky. I made everything masterwork when I had nothing to do. I had an ally alive and fighting at -400 hp. To entertain someone I cut my self open and removed my insides.

Such an odd and fun adventure.

Maybe add levels instead of mythic tiers and give bonus stats when they would normally get them from mythic.

I played a campaign to Mythic tier 10 and I think I played a much different ruleset than you...

We're you a caster? Having over a dozen 9th lvl spells on top of normal casts is huge. Miracle is a very strong spell and mythic spells are bonkers. Even the non mythic version of deathless is game changing. On top of that we had 3-5 other mythic PCs with crazy powers.

I've played in two mythic games one as a cleric and later as a kineticist, both had crazy combos going on (infinite attacks of opportunity, huge size, reach..)


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I’ve never played wrath but I feel like there are some obvious items you could take out/alter from Mythic to unbrake it.

Make sure Mythic vital strike multiple by the same amount as the none Mythic counterpart, not the number of dice rolling.

That is a very flawed interpretation to begin with.

Quote:

Gain half Mythic power after a rest, not full Mythic power.

Remove the extra standard from amazing initiative and half the initiative bonus.

I prefer the idea from Mythic Solutions. Make Amazing Initiative a tier 3 mythic power.

Quote:
Seriously change how recuperation works (seriously, the most powerful Mythic ability in my opinion. Like make it that you gain back one spell slot for each level of spell you can cast or something like that.

The most broken mythic power is Undetectable.

The second most broken power is Wild Arcana, which literally creates Schrodinger's wizard, after that is Foe Biter and all the abilities that change action economy.

Titan's bane is the one I am looking closely at right now.

Quote:

Seriously alter unstoppable immortal and legendary hero.

Then as your PCs take paths and feats take them case by case. Work with your players.

Or just embrace the crazy.

From a DM perspective, I just view it as interesting to try to balance encounters without turning everything into rocket tag.

I also implemented a lot of the changes from Mythic Solutions and banned Undetectable.

Quote:

The danger I feel with Mythic is some players can really make full on God’s whilst others produce things no stronger than a well made regular character.

It seriously raises the optimisation ceiling massively but the floor doesn’t change all that much.

I look at this as managing table expectations + learning curve for the players.

Even with Mythic, I have yet to have a player start thinking they a full on God. Just last month I had a level 11 tier 2 party get nearly crushed by a bunch of non-mythic CR 2...

Undetectable I’ll give you. It’s stupid frankly that it exists I ignore it and subsequently forget about it. Lol.

That aside I think you’re seriously under representing how powerful recuperation is. Wild Arcana costs a Mythic power for every single spell you cast. So you’ve got shcrodingers wizard for what like 5, 7, 9 spells a day? Frankly I think it’s much better on a Sorc.

Recuperation on the other, a high level cleric or a Oracle with recuperation may as well just cast miracle and mass heal every round of every encounter.
High level blaster Sorcs just meta magic the s%%~ out of their blast of choice and cast that every round over and over again.

The only limiting factor on a full caster at these levels is Spell slots, recuperation basically removes that.

Foe biter at Mythic levels is just overkill there’s no benefit beyond a certain point for how much damage you can do. It’s no-where near as abusable as Recuperation or Wild arcana or Mythic initiative.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I’ve never played wrath but I feel like there are some obvious items you could take out/alter from Mythic to unbrake it.

Make sure Mythic vital strike multiple by the same amount as the none Mythic counterpart, not the number of dice rolling.

That is a very flawed interpretation to begin with.

Quote:

Gain half Mythic power after a rest, not full Mythic power.

Remove the extra standard from amazing initiative and half the initiative bonus.

I prefer the idea from Mythic Solutions. Make Amazing Initiative a tier 3 mythic power.

Quote:
Seriously change how recuperation works (seriously, the most powerful Mythic ability in my opinion. Like make it that you gain back one spell slot for each level of spell you can cast or something like that.

The most broken mythic power is Undetectable.

The second most broken power is Wild Arcana, which literally creates Schrodinger's wizard, after that is Foe Biter and all the abilities that change action economy.

Titan's bane is the one I am looking closely at right now.

Quote:

Seriously alter unstoppable immortal and legendary hero.

Then as your PCs take paths and feats take them case by case. Work with your players.

Or just embrace the crazy.

From a DM perspective, I just view it as interesting to try to balance encounters without turning everything into rocket tag.

I also implemented a lot of the changes from Mythic Solutions and banned Undetectable.

Quote:

The danger I feel with Mythic is some players can really make full on God’s whilst others produce things no stronger than a well made regular character.

It seriously raises the optimisation ceiling massively but the floor doesn’t change all that much.

I look at this as managing table expectations + learning curve for the players.

Even with Mythic, I have yet to have a player start thinking they a full on God. Just last month I had a level 11 tier 2 party get nearly

...

Mythic Solutions does address Wild Arcana: one of the Mythic Solutions changes the mythic point cost for casting spells to 1/2 spell level, rounding up. As a standard action.

My players tend to use it for lower level spells that solve specific problems.


I think I’d change cost or action, not both personally I’d probably go cost.


Dragon78 wrote:
Anyone thought of adding a template to player characters such as advanced, celestial, half celestial, etc.?

I considered it for my nonmythic campaign, as a voluntary alternative to leveling. But at least advanced has a huge disadvantage: It only changes numbers. Yes, it's a solid powerup, but it doesn't give you any exciting new options.

Other templates might work better as they add more options.

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