paizo.com Recent Posts in 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?paizo.com Recent Posts in 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?2019-12-19T19:43:38Z2019-12-19T19:43:38ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Melkiadorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#842020-01-20T05:28:29Z2020-01-20T05:28:29Z<p>Im not advocating for power disparities. I’m just offering the best solution for dealing with this case. Scaling the boss monster up would just make the other characters even less important. Adding minions at least gives the other characters something to do. </p>
<p>This was just a one shot where the GM seemingly expected crazy builds. If this were a real campaign, then a session zero should make it clear what is and is not expected of characters and optimization.</p>Im not advocating for power disparities. I’m just offering the best solution for dealing with this case. Scaling the boss monster up would just make the other characters even less important. Adding minions at least gives the other characters something to do.
This was just a one shot where the GM seemingly expected crazy builds. If this were a real campaign, then a session zero should make it clear what is and is not expected of characters and optimization.Melkiador2020-01-20T05:28:29ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Balkothhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#832020-01-20T04:04:40Z2020-01-20T04:04:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Melkiador wrote:</div><blockquote>But at least then everyone is contributing and having a good time....It’s unlikely the rest of the party would just leave the boss alone.</blockquote><p>I've had the reverse experience, both as a player and as a GM, where this kind of power disparity you're advocating for just left multiple players and/or the GM feeling like they might as well not be there. Perhaps you've had different experiences.Melkiador wrote:But at least then everyone is contributing and having a good time....It’s unlikely the rest of the party would just leave the boss alone.
I've had the reverse experience, both as a player and as a GM, where this kind of power disparity you're advocating for just left multiple players and/or the GM feeling like they might as well not be there. Perhaps you've had different experiences.Balkoth2020-01-20T04:04:40ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Goblin_Priesthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#822020-01-13T13:26:41Z2020-01-13T13:26:41Z<p>How did things go?</p>
<p>Without looking at the creature in question or what others advised, overall I reckon:</p>
<p>Things with high DR: focus on two-handed melee combattants if you know you can't dodge the DR</p>
<p>Things with high AC: focus on buffs</p>
<p>Things with high saves: focus on buffs and indirect crowd control or whatever doesn't target saves</p>
<p>Things with high SR: focus on what doesn't care about SR</p>
<p>With level-appropriate enemies, saves and SR can be overcome relatively reliably. With a much stronger opponent, it's basically a waste of time. Buffs work 100% of the time and are almost always the same as the equivalent debuff, when not even stronger. Spells like Stone Call (and the later versions), Grease, and such create difficult terrain that can help tip the scales in your favor, regardless of SR and saves. Same with Wall spells, summons, and a bunch of other field control options.</p>
<p>IMO, stuff to avoid in such things are those that spread damage over too many attacks (two-handed fighters and archers) or that target SR/saves too much (blasters).</p>How did things go?
Without looking at the creature in question or what others advised, overall I reckon:
Things with high DR: focus on two-handed melee combattants if you know you can't dodge the DR
Things with high AC: focus on buffs
Things with high saves: focus on buffs and indirect crowd control or whatever doesn't target saves
Things with high SR: focus on what doesn't care about SR
With level-appropriate enemies, saves and SR can be overcome relatively reliably. With a much...Goblin_Priest2020-01-13T13:26:41ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Quixotehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#812020-01-13T04:04:25Z2020-01-13T04:04:25Z<p>Melkiador had the right of it; in ANY encounter, one combatant is less interesting and dynamic than multiple. And increasing one guy's numbers is way less interesting than adding additional elements.</p>
<p>Also, I know it's not a popular opinion, but: the GM's fun isn't "as important" as the player's. It's more.
<br />
If I spend 10 times the hours in prep work and take on 5 times the cognative load during the game than the players...yeah. I'm gonna kinda expect them to give me my due. Respect and appreciation.</p>Melkiador had the right of it; in ANY encounter, one combatant is less interesting and dynamic than multiple. And increasing one guy's numbers is way less interesting than adding additional elements.
Also, I know it's not a popular opinion, but: the GM's fun isn't "as important" as the player's. It's more.
If I spend 10 times the hours in prep work and take on 5 times the cognative load during the game than the players...yeah. I'm gonna kinda expect them to give me my due. Respect and...Quixote2020-01-13T04:04:25ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Melkiadorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#802020-01-13T01:52:39Z2020-01-13T01:51:52Z<p>It’s a problem of scaling. If you ramp the creature up too high for the optimized character to hit, then no one can hit it. And a table full of people rolling miss after miss gets boring really fast. Flurry of misses is the major problem of the core monk, and you do not want a table full of that. It’s not fun. </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote> But the encounter has now shifted from "You're fighting Krampus" to "The party minus the Brawler is fighting whatever is with Krampus."</blockquote><p>It might turn out that way. But at least then everyone is contributing and having a good time. But the more likely result is that there will be characters weaving in and out of the boss and his minions. It’s unlikely the rest of the party would just leave the boss alone.It’s a problem of scaling. If you ramp the creature up too high for the optimized character to hit, then no one can hit it. And a table full of people rolling miss after miss gets boring really fast. Flurry of misses is the major problem of the core monk, and you do not want a table full of that. It’s not fun.
Quote:But the encounter has now shifted from "You're fighting Krampus" to "The party minus the Brawler is fighting whatever is with Krampus."
It might turn out that way. But at least...Melkiador2020-01-13T01:51:52ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Balkothhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#792020-01-13T00:36:14Z2020-01-13T00:36:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Melkiador wrote:</div><blockquote>Increasing the power of the creature is kind of boring</blockquote><p>Why? Numbers matter.
<p>A level 7 party fighting a pair of ogres vs a pair of hill giants vs a pair of fire giants prompt very different tactics (or rather, force the party to play better as the fights get harder).</p>
<p>Or look at a basilisk: a basilisk with a petrification DC of 5 can basically be stared at in a group setting, a basilisk with a petrification DC of 25 forces gaze avoidance.</p>
<p>Or how about an example in one of my campaigns — I'm maximizing HP for all characters/creatures. This led to a new player at level 4 being very surprised when his reach build "only" did like 70% of enemy HP and they actually reached him and managed to make some attacks.</p>
<p>Why do you think players obsess over things like maximizing casting stat, (Greater) Spell Focus, Spell Perfection, etc? Those are basically equivalent to weakening enemy saving throws (ie making enemies less powerful).</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Melkiador wrote:</div><blockquote>The too strong character is contributing his abilities well to the fight, but those abilities now no longer thwart the entire encounter, but merely a piece of it.</blockquote><p>But the encounter has now shifted from "You're fighting Krampus" to "The party minus the Brawler is fighting whatever is with Krampus."Melkiador wrote:Increasing the power of the creature is kind of boring
Why? Numbers matter. A level 7 party fighting a pair of ogres vs a pair of hill giants vs a pair of fire giants prompt very different tactics (or rather, force the party to play better as the fights get harder).
Or look at a basilisk: a basilisk with a petrification DC of 5 can basically be stared at in a group setting, a basilisk with a petrification DC of 25 forces gaze avoidance.
Or how about an example in one of my...Balkoth2020-01-13T00:36:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Melkiadorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#782020-01-10T17:46:15Z2020-01-10T17:43:21Z<p>I would assume the difference is in how things are made more difficult. Increasing the power of the creature is kind of boring, and makes it harder for everyone to succeed at anything when they have to fight him. Adding extra NPCs can add to the depth of the encounter. The too strong character is contributing his abilities well to the fight, but those abilities now no longer thwart the entire encounter, but merely a piece of it.</p>I would assume the difference is in how things are made more difficult. Increasing the power of the creature is kind of boring, and makes it harder for everyone to succeed at anything when they have to fight him. Adding extra NPCs can add to the depth of the encounter. The too strong character is contributing his abilities well to the fight, but those abilities now no longer thwart the entire encounter, but merely a piece of it.Melkiador2020-01-10T17:43:21ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Balkothhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#772020-01-10T17:37:49Z2020-01-10T17:37:49Z<p>In the spirit of the new year, I'm going to assume you're arguing in good faith here.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote>I just think it’s a dick move to set a challenge for your players then move the goal posts when they meet the challenge.</blockquote><p>There's a significant difference between "meeting a challenge" and "blowing past the challenge so hard it ceases to be a challenge."
<p>If a group came to the DM and said "Okay, here's our 5 round plan for the group to work together to beat Krampus with a 99.9% chance of success" I think every sane GM would say "Great, let's see it."</p>
<p>But instead we're looking at "Here's how a SINGLE party member neutralizes the encounter on the first round except on a natural 1."</p>
<p>Those are two vastly different scenarios.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote>I would agree. A bunch of evil santa’s little helper type opponents would be fun.</blockquote><p>Just to make sure I'm understanding you here:
<p>Saying "Okay, it seems we need to crank up Krampus's stats because you're completely stomping the encounter" is a jerk move.</p>
<p>Saying "Okay I'm going to add 8 CR 17 helpers to make it a CR24 encounter because you're completely stomping the encounter" is fun.</p>
<p>Both of those are making the encounter harder because the PCs are vastly more powerful than anticipated.</p>In the spirit of the new year, I'm going to assume you're arguing in good faith here.
Chromantic Durgon I just think it’s a dick move to set a challenge for your players then move the goal posts when they meet the challenge.
There's a significant difference between "meeting a challenge" and "blowing past the challenge so hard it ceases to be a challenge." If a group came to the DM and said "Okay, here's our 5 round plan for the group to work together to beat Krampus with a 99.9% chance of...Balkoth2020-01-10T17:37:49ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Loren Pechtelhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#762019-12-31T03:30:06Z2019-12-31T03:30:06Z<p>So how did it go?</p>So how did it go?Loren Pechtel2019-12-31T03:30:06ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Chromantic Durgon <3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#752019-12-23T16:42:48Z2019-12-23T16:41:35Z<p>But he did give Cr and Krampus CMD isn’t remarkable for his CR. Most the average CMD for CR21 falls roughly between 55-62 range. So knowing it was Krampus doesn’t give us a specially low or high CMD to aim for. This build would beat the CMD of every pretty much CR21 creature reliably. </p>
<p>I would agree. A bunch of evil santa’s little helper type opponents would be fun.</p>But he did give Cr and Krampus CMD isn’t remarkable for his CR. Most the average CMD for CR21 falls roughly between 55-62 range. So knowing it was Krampus doesn’t give us a specially low or high CMD to aim for. This build would beat the CMD of every pretty much CR21 creature reliably.
I would agree. A bunch of evil santa’s little helper type opponents would be fun.Chromantic Durgon <32019-12-23T16:41:35ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#742019-12-23T16:25:27Z2019-12-23T16:25:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I never denied that GMs should have fun. </p>
<p>I just think it’s a dick move to set a challenge for your players then move the goal posts when they meet the challenge.</p>
<p>The OP didn’t need me to tell them it was krampus to know the AC and SR of the monster they were facing. The Dm wants them to know that information they got given it. </p>
<p>So why when the OP meets those figures would it be okay to just buff them, why even tell them that in the first place. </p>
<p>I can only think of one reason I can see why you’d tell someone the target they were aiming to hit if you were planning to move the goal posts if they hit it anyway.
<br />
That would be you assumed it would be impossible for them to hit that target to begin with. </p>
<p>For all we know the DM was pretty confident there players couldn’t do this, the fact they turned to forums supports that theory. </p>
<p>I personally think DMs setting goals they assume are impossible and then moving the goal posts when it turns out they’re not is not great </p>
<p>And really if you set a +CR8 target for your party and gave them prep time, would you expect them not to do some research? </blockquote><p>I totally get what you're saying, and I agree that moving the goalposts would be a "breach of trust" between the DM and the players, especially after giving out that kind of information beforehand.
<p>The DM didn't give out the CMD of the monster though, he only gave the AC, SR, and DR. I would assume that the DM gave that information out because he wanted the players to come up with their best builds to counter a monster like that without even considering that the CMD could be beaten, let alone completely abused by a DT Master build. </p>
<p>That being said, I think I would like to rescind my previous comment that I would beef up the encounter's AC/CMD/HP, but I think I would probably add some support minions. I think that would be fair and not breaching the trust of the players, while still providing an adequate challenge to the party.</p>Chromantic Durgon I never denied that GMs should have fun.
I just think it’s a dick move to set a challenge for your players then move the goal posts when they meet the challenge.
The OP didn’t need me to tell them it was krampus to know the AC and SR of the monster they were facing. The Dm wants them to know that information they got given it.
So why when the OP meets those figures would it be okay to just buff them, why even tell them that in the first place.
I can only think of one...Ryze Kuja2019-12-23T16:25:27ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Chromantic Durgon <3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#732019-12-23T15:12:49Z2019-12-23T15:12:49Z<p>I never denied that GMs should have fun. </p>
<p>I just think it’s a dick move to set a challenge for your players then move the goal posts when they meet the challenge.</p>
<p>The OP didn’t need me to tell them it was krampus to know the AC and SR of the monster they were facing. The Dm wants them to know that information they got given it. </p>
<p>So why when the OP meets those figures would it be okay to just buff them, why even tell them that in the first place. </p>
<p>I can only think of one reason I can see why you’d tell someone the target they were aiming to hit if you were planning to move the goal posts if they hit it anyway.
<br />
That would be you assumed it would be impossible for them to hit that target to begin with. </p>
<p>For all we know the DM was pretty confident there players couldn’t do this, the fact they turned to forums supports that theory. </p>
<p>I personally think DMs setting goals they assume are impossible and then moving the goal posts when it turns out they’re not is not great </p>
<p>And really if you set a +CR8 target for your party and gave them prep time, would you expect them not to do some research?</p>I never denied that GMs should have fun.
I just think it’s a dick move to set a challenge for your players then move the goal posts when they meet the challenge.
The OP didn’t need me to tell them it was krampus to know the AC and SR of the monster they were facing. The Dm wants them to know that information they got given it.
So why when the OP meets those figures would it be okay to just buff them, why even tell them that in the first place.
I can only think of one reason I can see why...Chromantic Durgon <32019-12-23T15:12:49ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#722019-12-23T14:27:22Z2019-12-23T14:16:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If you tell players to prepare for an overtly difficult encounter and then don’t enjoy it when they do, you dug your own grave. </p>
<p>And if you start artificially buffing your monsters cause you think your players might actually win I’m not convinced you want them to have fun either. </p>
<p>Prepare for X
<br />
Oh you actually prepared for X </p>
<p>Well make that X squared. </p>
<p>I’d wonder why I even bothered preparing if my GM did that. </blockquote><p>Well, the GM probably didn't anticipate that his player would come to the forums for an episode of "pimp-my-oneshot-character" where 1) the forums' collective knowledge of the Bestiary would divine the exact monster the DM chose, and 2) the forums' collective knowledge would figure out how to completely nullify that exact monster with a single character (with 4 different viable classes/builds for the OP to choose from, no less).
<p>And if I was the DM and found out about this, I wouldn't buff Krampus to the point that he couldn't be beaten, I'd buff him to the point where the players actually have warm fuzzies when they DO beat him. I personally see nothing wrong with that. </p>
<p>I agree with Balkoth. The DM's fun is just as important as the players' fun. So if the DM is just making Move Actions until he dies, where's the fun in that? And honestly, the players would have more fun if they were in a challenging fight, not a fight where the monster gets wtfpwned in 2 rounds. I think it's the best of both worlds.</p>Chromantic Durgon If you tell players to prepare for an overtly difficult encounter and then don’t enjoy it when they do, you dug your own grave.
And if you start artificially buffing your monsters cause you think your players might actually win I’m not convinced you want them to have fun either.
Prepare for X
Oh you actually prepared for X
Well make that X squared.
I’d wonder why I even bothered preparing if my GM did that.
Well, the GM probably didn't anticipate that his player would...Ryze Kuja2019-12-23T14:16:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Scott Wilhelmhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#712019-12-22T18:12:35Z2019-12-22T18:12:35Z<p>For 1-shotting single BBEGs, I love Grappling. Get Greater Grapple and Expert Captor, and you can Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action and Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action.</p>
<p>Lots of CR20+ creatures have Freedom of Movement, so I think this means taking 9 levels in Tetori. Expert Captor requires 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent.</p>
<p>If you take 2 levels in Alchemist, you can get your Mutagen, your King Crab Tumor Familiar, Infusion, a Wand of Touch Injection, and your other Buffs like Bull Strength and Enlarge Person. That's your 13 levels.</p>
<p><b>Feats and Class Abilities:</b>
<br />
Improved and Greater grapple: +4
<br />
Grab Tetori: +4
<br />
Familiar: +2
<br />
Coordinated Maneuvers: +2</p>
<p><b>Magic Items:</b>
<br />
Armbands of the Brawler: +1
<br />
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: +2
<br />
Adhesive Armor Enchantment: +2
<br />
Brawling Armor Enchantment: +2
<br />
Belt of Giant Strength: +1 or more, depending on budget</p>
<p>So, your BAB is +9 at level 13: +6 from 9 levels in Tetori, +1 from 2 levels in Alchemist, and +2 from 2 levels in Cavalier. It's actually +11 for Grappling though because Monks get to add their Class Level instead of BAB from Class when it comes to Combat Maneuvers. +22 from Feats, Class Abilities, and Magic Items. I figure you put one of your 15s in Strength, and one of your ability bonuses every 4 levels into Strenght, so that's +3. </p>
<p>So your Full-time Grapple Mod is +35</p>
<p><b>Basic Buffs</b>
<br />
Mutagen: +2
<br />
Enlarge Person: +2</p>
<p>+39</p>
<p>So, here's another idea. </p>
<p>You cast Touch Injection or give Assassin's Gloves to your Familiar. You give your Familiar an Infusion of True Strike. You cast True Strike on yourself and run up to your opponent, or get DimDoored there. When it's your turn again, you Intiate a Grapple as a Standard Action and get an extra +20. Your Familiar injects you with True Strike as a Readied Action, then you Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action. </p>
<p>So you get those 2 attacks, which, if successful, will Tie Up your opponent, and you get a +59 on your Attack Roll, and you negate Freedom of Movement.</p>
<p>Your chance of taking out the BBEG in 1 round, done and dusted is high.</p>
<p>Quick survey of CR 21 monsters:</p>
<p>An Eleysian Titan: CMD 59</p>
<p>Iron Colossus: 62</p>
<p>Clockwork Reliquary: 62</p>
<p>Baaphel, Duke of Hell: 55</p>
<p>Demon Lord Stonechard: 61</p>
<p>Great Wyrm Blue Dragon: 58</p>
<p>Tor Linnorm: CMD: 70</p>
<p>Stygian Leviathan: 71</p>
<p>If your party has a Cleric with Touch of Law, you automatically roll an 11, so you automatically can defeat even the Stygian Leviathan.</p>For 1-shotting single BBEGs, I love Grappling. Get Greater Grapple and Expert Captor, and you can Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action and Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action.
Lots of CR20+ creatures have Freedom of Movement, so I think this means taking 9 levels in Tetori. Expert Captor requires 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent.
If you take 2 levels in Alchemist, you can get your Mutagen, your King Crab Tumor Familiar, Infusion, a Wand of Touch Injection, and your other...Scott Wilhelm2019-12-22T18:12:35ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Balkothhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#702019-12-22T07:36:05Z2019-12-22T07:36:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote>And if you start artificially buffing your monsters cause you think your players might actually win I’m not convinced you want them to have fun either.</blockquote><p>Are you actually incapable of seeing a distinction between "The players will win after a challenging fight" and "the BBEG is completely nullified by Blind/Nauseates that land on everything but a 1 roll?"Chromantic Durgon And if you start artificially buffing your monsters cause you think your players might actually win I’m not convinced you want them to have fun either.
Are you actually incapable of seeing a distinction between "The players will win after a challenging fight" and "the BBEG is completely nullified by Blind/Nauseates that land on everything but a 1 roll?"Balkoth2019-12-22T07:36:05ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Chromantic Durgon <3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#692019-12-22T01:31:11Z2019-12-22T01:31:11Z<p>If you tell players to prepare for an overtly difficult encounter and then don’t enjoy it when they do, you dug your own grave. </p>
<p>And if you start artificially buffing your monsters cause you think your players might actually win I’m not convinced you want them to have fun either. </p>
<p>Prepare for X
<br />
Oh you actually prepared for X </p>
<p>Well make that X squared. </p>
<p>I’d wonder why I even bothered preparing if my GM did that.</p>If you tell players to prepare for an overtly difficult encounter and then don’t enjoy it when they do, you dug your own grave.
And if you start artificially buffing your monsters cause you think your players might actually win I’m not convinced you want them to have fun either.
Prepare for X
Oh you actually prepared for X
Well make that X squared.
I’d wonder why I even bothered preparing if my GM did that.Chromantic Durgon <32019-12-22T01:31:11ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Balkothhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#682019-12-22T00:51:18Z2019-12-22T00:51:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> What’s the point of running a Christmas one shot 8 levels above CR if you’re going to further buff your 8 levels over creature if the party has an answer for it. </blockquote><p>So the BBEG doesn't die in round 2 without putting up at least a little bit of a fight. The players would look at you like ".... that's it? Nice one-shot buddy, someone else is DMing next time."
</p>
</blockquote><p>Now, to be fair, there are some groups where everyone might say "Wow, that was hilarious, great work" and everyone might like it.
<p>...but there's definitely a lot of groups that would be disappointed at best.</p>
<p>...also, even if the players love it, the DM might not enjoy it one bit and a lot of players seem to forget the DM's enjoyment matters as well. This isn't a video game run by an AI that doesn't care, this is something the DM spends time putting together and then has to actually take the time to run.</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:Chromantic Durgon What’s the point of running a Christmas one shot 8 levels above CR if you’re going to further buff your 8 levels over creature if the party has an answer for it.
So the BBEG doesn't die in round 2 without putting up at least a little bit of a fight. The players would look at you like ".... that's it? Nice one-shot buddy, someone else is DMing next time."
Now, to be fair, there are some groups where everyone might say "Wow, that was hilarious, great work"...Balkoth2019-12-22T00:51:18ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#672019-12-20T17:21:41Z2019-12-20T17:19:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Melkiador wrote:</div><blockquote> I would assume that the GM is expecting these kinds of builds, if he's already telegraphing how powerful the monster will be. </blockquote><p>Yeah, he probably is, but he's probably not expecting his BBEG to completely nullified by Blind/Nauseates that land on everything but a 1 roll.
<p>Just because of the Brawler, Krampus's Standard Actions are completely spoken for. The DM essentially has two choices, trade his Standard Action to remove Blindness or Sickness every single round that the Brawler doesn't get a 1 roll, or use 1 single Standard Action to either use an ability or make one attack (while Blind) and then become Nauseated the following round and the fight is over. </p>
<p>The DM cannot use a single ability or make a single attack the entire encounter, because if he does, he's going to do it while Blinded, and the next round he'll be permanently Nauseated. He can only make Move Actions until the Brawler is dealt with.</p>
<p>So... if I found out that one of the players did a build like this, then you're absolutely right that I would 1) buff him before they got there, and 2) give the BBEG minions that can provide support. </p>
<p>And TBH, this is JUST considering the Brawler. God knows what the other 5 have up their sleeves.</p>Melkiador wrote:I would assume that the GM is expecting these kinds of builds, if he's already telegraphing how powerful the monster will be.
Yeah, he probably is, but he's probably not expecting his BBEG to completely nullified by Blind/Nauseates that land on everything but a 1 roll. Just because of the Brawler, Krampus's Standard Actions are completely spoken for. The DM essentially has two choices, trade his Standard Action to remove Blindness or Sickness every single round that the...Ryze Kuja2019-12-20T17:19:32ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#662019-12-20T17:02:50Z2019-12-20T17:01:32Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> What’s the point of running a Christmas one shot 8 levels above CR if you’re going to further buff your 8 levels over creature if the party has an answer for it. </blockquote><p>So the BBEG doesn't die in round 2 without putting up at least a little bit of a fight. The players would look at you like ".... that's it? Nice one-shot buddy, someone else is DMing next time."Chromantic Durgon What’s the point of running a Christmas one shot 8 levels above CR if you’re going to further buff your 8 levels over creature if the party has an answer for it.
So the BBEG doesn't die in round 2 without putting up at least a little bit of a fight. The players would look at you like ".... that's it? Nice one-shot buddy, someone else is DMing next time."Ryze Kuja2019-12-20T17:01:32ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Melkiadorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#652019-12-20T16:52:01Z2019-12-20T16:51:04Z<p>I would assume that the GM is expecting these kinds of builds, if he's already telegraphing how powerful the monster will be.</p>I would assume that the GM is expecting these kinds of builds, if he's already telegraphing how powerful the monster will be.Melkiador2019-12-20T16:51:04ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Chromantic Durgon <3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#642019-12-20T16:47:52Z2019-12-20T16:47:52Z<p>What’s the point of running a Christmas one shot 8 levels above CR if you’re going to further buff your 8 levels over creature if the party has an answer for it.</p>What’s the point of running a Christmas one shot 8 levels above CR if you’re going to further buff your 8 levels over creature if the party has an answer for it.Chromantic Durgon <32019-12-20T16:47:52ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#632019-12-20T15:44:49Z2019-12-20T15:23:01Z<p>@OP</p>
<p>If you do decide to go with the Dirty Tricks Brawler, I would recommend NOT revealing how high your Dirty Tricks can get until the actual Krampus encounter. </p>
<p>Because honestly, if I was your DM and there was a player who came in for a Holiday One-shot and starts putting out rolls on the Pre-Krampus Encounters like "I'm hasted, so I charge Random Bad Guy 120ft away with Pummeling Charge, and roll a 75 to Blind and then roll 45 to hit, 42 to hit, 41 to hit, 37 to hit, and 31 to hit, and I'm using Pummeling Style, so I deal a total of.... <checks math> ...190 damage before any DR is considered", then first, I'm going to look at your sheets to make sure your math is good, then if it is, my Krampus Encounter is going to get a quick buff before you ever get there, probably an additional 5AC, 10-12 CMD, 300-350 HP, and I'll probably add a small platoon of Demon Sorcerers wearing Santa Hats with Greater Dispel Focus, and although I can't speak for every DM, I bet yours and others would do something similar.</p>@OP
If you do decide to go with the Dirty Tricks Brawler, I would recommend NOT revealing how high your Dirty Tricks can get until the actual Krampus encounter.
Because honestly, if I was your DM and there was a player who came in for a Holiday One-shot and starts putting out rolls on the Pre-Krampus Encounters like "I'm hasted, so I charge Random Bad Guy 120ft away with Pummeling Charge, and roll a 75 to Blind and then roll 45 to hit, 42 to hit, 41 to hit, 37 to hit, and 31 to hit, and I'm...Ryze Kuja2019-12-20T15:23:01ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Meirrilhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#622019-12-20T03:20:20Z2019-12-20T03:20:20Z<p>A little extra cheese. Take Leadership and throw in a buffing wizard cohort. Make sure the cohort has the <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/elemental-arcane-schools/void-elemental-school/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">void school</a>.</p>
<p>Since you're 13th level the cohort should be 11th. Equip the cohort with an Orange Ioun Stone so they have CL 12 and their reveal weakness ability is -6 AC/Saves for 3+int mod rounds. Generally that is enough of an edge to let the entire party contribute.</p>A little extra cheese. Take Leadership and throw in a buffing wizard cohort. Make sure the cohort has the void school.
Since you're 13th level the cohort should be 11th. Equip the cohort with an Orange Ioun Stone so they have CL 12 and their reveal weakness ability is -6 AC/Saves for 3+int mod rounds. Generally that is enough of an edge to let the entire party contribute.Meirril2019-12-20T03:20:20ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Dasrakhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#612019-12-19T20:44:49Z2019-12-19T20:44:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Wonderstell wrote:</div><blockquote>Blinded - small cuts around the eyes to cloud their vision.</blockquote><p>I'd disagree; that's not a Dirty Trick, but rather a direct attack on a vital area.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Wonderstell wrote:</div><blockquote>Dazzled - reflect light on your blade into their eyes.</blockquote><p>Agreed, but dependent on bright lighting conditions so unreliable.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Wonderstell wrote:</div><blockquote>Deafened - slam your weapon into something near their ears.</blockquote><p>Sure, although against a non-caster like Krampus that's not really a relevant condition.Wonderstell wrote:Blinded - small cuts around the eyes to cloud their vision.
I'd disagree; that's not a Dirty Trick, but rather a direct attack on a vital area. Wonderstell wrote:Dazzled - reflect light on your blade into their eyes.
Agreed, but dependent on bright lighting conditions so unreliable. Wonderstell wrote:Deafened - slam your weapon into something near their ears.
Sure, although against a non-caster like Krampus that's not really a relevant condition.Dasrak2019-12-19T20:44:49ZRe: Forums: Advice: 13th level one shot against a CR21 - how can I counter?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42vpl&page=2?13th-level-one-shot-against-a-CR21-how-can-I#602019-12-19T20:22:34Z2019-12-19T20:22:34Z<p>Instead of a Gauntlet +4, get some Brass Knuckles +4 because they have the "Monk" special weapon property, allowing you to Brawler's Flurry.</p>
<p>I think it's safe to say that Krampus will be Blinded with your first Dirty Tricks you do, so that's a -2 to AC and -9 Dex from his AC, so now you're talking about hitting a measly <b>26 AC</b>.</p>
<p>+ to Attack:</p>
<p>+13 BAB
<br />
+10 Str (5 base, +2 Bull's Strength, +3 Size bonus form Beast Shape III)
<br />
-2 Size bonus (Huge — Beast Shape III
<br />
+4 Enhancement
<br />
+4 Greater Heroism (Morale bonus)
<br />
+3 Inspire Courage (Competence bonus)
<br />
+1 Weapon Focus (Brass Knuckles)
<br />
+1 Haste
<br />
-4 Power Attack
<br />
-2 TWF</p>
<p>+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 <—- this is how many attacks you get normally
<br />
+53 DT/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 <—- with Quick Dirty Trick substituted for your first attack in the round. You will almost always have Full Attacks because of Pummeling Charge.</p>
<p>Even on your last iterative attack, you still hit a 26 AC with a roll of 8 or higher.</p>
<p>Damage</p>
<p>Mainhand: 4d6 (huge brawler) + 10 str + 8 PA + 4 Ench + 3 Inspire = 4d6+25 = 39 avg.
<br />
Offhand: 4d6 (huge brawler) + 10 str + 4 PA + 4 Ench + 3 Inspire = 4d6+21 = 35 avg.</p>
<p>So if you hit with all 5 attacks, assuming no crits, that's 187 avg dmg minus 15 dmg for DR = 172 dmg, plus a Quick Dirty Trick. Krampus has 396 health, so I'd say just tell your group to bring lawn chairs and popcorn :P</p>Instead of a Gauntlet +4, get some Brass Knuckles +4 because they have the "Monk" special weapon property, allowing you to Brawler's Flurry.
I think it's safe to say that Krampus will be Blinded with your first Dirty Tricks you do, so that's a -2 to AC and -9 Dex from his AC, so now you're talking about hitting a measly 26 AC.
+ to Attack:
+13 BAB
+10 Str (5 base, +2 Bull's Strength, +3 Size bonus form Beast Shape III)
-2 Size bonus (Huge -- Beast Shape III
+4 Enhancement
+4 Greater...Ryze Kuja2019-12-19T20:22:34Z