"Red Helmet" Vigilante


Advice


Hi folks! I need some rp and build help. Vigilante is new class for me.
I want create medium level character(10-14 levels).
At first about concept: Red Helmet or Wilhelm Drish is a singal human,whose family was murdered by bandits when hi was young. Later he tried become part of the city goverment, but corrupted by crime part of goverment dont give chance to him. After that he decided to clear city from bandits and such criminal structures by heself. He bought iron armor, painted some parts of it in red color and started his crusade.
He is antihero: he want clear streets, but think that bandits and and other "dirty humans" havent the right to live. His combat style is close. He punch and after torturing people, that are bad for him.
In social live after "his fail" he have some respect from common people, and after begining career of Red Helmet he become some rich(because he sold bandits stuff on black market)

I dont know, can antihero have good alighment. Social identity have natural alighment, but about Red helmet i dont know.
I think go 16 Str 16 Dex and 14 Con, go in medium armor with armor skin talent
To boost unarmed or gauntlet damage i think take Fist of Avenger, Lethal Grace and Take Em Alive(+4 to attack and +14 damage). Shield of fury can give acces to TWF feats. Shield of blades give bonus AC if use Power Attack.
But what about feats and sochial talents, or what talents i need to change?


Killing bandits is normal in D&D/PF. Torturing them (especially routinely) is over the line into evil IMO but alignment discussions online never result in agreement. Talk to the people you game with.

There's a lot of different things you could spend feats, social talents and the rest of your vigilante talents on but I'm not sure what to suggest. Does Wilhelm fight alone, or does he have a party, or a whole gang of minions? L10-14 is high level not mid-level BTW, he'd be a major power in most cities. The description is short but red armor and TWF unarmed does suggest boar style to me.


avr wrote:

Killing bandits is normal in D&D/PF. Torturing them (especially routinely) is over the line into evil IMO but alignment discussions online never result in agreement. Talk to the people you game with.

There's a lot of different things you could spend feats, social talents and the rest of your vigilante talents on but I'm not sure what to suggest. Does Wilhelm fight alone, or does he have a party, or a whole gang of minions? L10-14 is high level not mid-level BTW, he'd be a major power in most cities. The description is short but red armor and TWF unarmed does suggest boar style to me.

He fight mostly alone. He dont like "heroes is shining armor that try to help every one.

Boar style is good idea, but can gauntlet style be useful?
Well i think that antihero's aligment is lawfull evil : he use brutal ways to do good things


I think 1 level brawler for matrial flexibility is not bad idea. Sometimes he need to change some feats in different situations. His specialization is Avenger, so BBA not changing


There are some magical or pseudo magical items that can help to remove or wear medium armor?


A wand of swift girding can put armor on. He'd need the UMD skill or a dip in something with spellcasting.

Shield gauntlet style is about catching blades in your gauntleted fist. Boar style is about ripping your enemies apart with your bare hands. They're not compatible, pick one.


avr wrote:

A wand of swift girding can put armor on. He'd need the UMD skill or a dip in something with spellcasting.

Shield gauntlet style is about catching blades in your gauntleted fist. Boar style is about ripping your enemies apart with your bare hands. They're not compatible, pick one.

I like boar style , but for TWF feats i need gauntlets(shield of fury)


Pro100Andr wrote:
avr wrote:

A wand of swift girding can put armor on. He'd need the UMD skill or a dip in something with spellcasting.

Shield gauntlet style is about catching blades in your gauntleted fist. Boar style is about ripping your enemies apart with your bare hands. They're not compatible, pick one.

I like boar style , but for TWF feats i need gauntlets(shield of fury)

Eh? You've got the dexterity to just get TWF feats. Shield of fury is not required. Admittedly shield bashing is the strongest type of TWF once you can get all the required feats, but that doesn't make other kinds of TWF too weak to use.


avr wrote:
Pro100Andr wrote:
avr wrote:

A wand of swift girding can put armor on. He'd need the UMD skill or a dip in something with spellcasting.

Shield gauntlet style is about catching blades in your gauntleted fist. Boar style is about ripping your enemies apart with your bare hands. They're not compatible, pick one.

I like boar style , but for TWF feats i need gauntlets(shield of fury)
Eh? You've got the dexterity to just get TWF feats. Shield of fury is not required. Admittedly shield bashing is the strongest type of TWF once you can get all the required feats, but that doesn't make other kinds of TWF too weak to use.

I havent 17 and 19 Dexterity for Impoved and Greater TWF, but if use shild of fury with gauntlets i ignore dex pres(if i understood it correct)


Get a belt, or an ioun stone, or spend at least one of your 1/4 level increases.

Shield of fury ignores dex prereqs if and only if one of the weapons you use is a shield - specifically performing a shield bash. Shield gauntlet style will not allow you to use a gauntlet as a shield because it only makes the gauntlet act as a buckler - which cannot perform shield bashes.


avr wrote:

Get a belt, or an ioun stone, or spend at least one of your 1/4 level increases.

How works ioun stone. I never use it


About Boar Style: you mean take Boar style feat or Bore style chain feats?


An ioun stone is an item which does not use an item slot. You can wear say a belt of giant's strength +4 and an ioun stone which gives +2 dexterity. A belt of physical prowess would be better than {a belt of giant's strength and an ioun stone} if the bonuses were the same, but the ioun stone's useful when you want different bonuses.

If you get boar style you might as well get the feats which depend on it if you can afford them.


avr wrote:

If you get boar style you might as well get the feats which depend on it if you can afford them.

Boar shred and ferocity can be useful bue to Intimidate donuses and extra damage, but I think instead take weapon focus, weapon spec.


Also I forgot to said, that 3Rd party content is legal for it(but not Psionic)


What social talents can be useful?


Weapon focus and spec. can be obtained via a vigilante talent if you have one free (signature weapon).

Hidden magic and skill bonus social talents like skill familiarity and social grace can be useful but mostly social talents are about making the vigilante match the flavour you want for the character. Think about how he's seen by others, how he hides from view, how he gathers information.

& sorry I know there's 3rd party stuff for the vigilante, but I know nothing much about it.


avr wrote:

Weapon focus and spec. can be obtained via a vigilante talent if you have one free (signature weapon).

I know about that, but with talents for damage and armor i havent free talent to pick it


Also i find Mad rush is cool, but -4 AC can hearts


I found now Faceless Enforcer archetype. I think that archetype is good for my concept


Faceless enforcer fits on flavour (though he's probably not actually a Hellknight?) but sucks on power. Neither of the vigilante talent replacements is as good as one of the better talents. The second is worse than a social talent.

Anyway, filling the details in so I can see how/if it works. Brawler 1 / avenger vigilante X.
1: TWF
Human 1: skill focus (stealth)
Brawler 1: improved unarmed strike
3: boar style
Talent 2: lethal grace
5: double slice
Talent 4: shield of blades
7: improved TWF
Talent 6: armor skin
Human 8: skill focus (intimidate)
9: hellcat stealth
Talent 8: signature weapon
11: greater TWF
Talent 10: take 'em alive
13: two-weapon rend
Talent 12: mad rush

Looks OK to me. Damage is 1d6 + Str + 2 + half vigilante level + enhancement bonus of your handwraps, another +3-4 attack and damage when doing nonlethal (bonus changes at vigilante 11, i.e character level 12). Power attack on top of that for about -4 attack/+8 damage/+4 AC. Extra damage when 2 attacks hit of 1d6 + 1d10 + 1.5*Str. Hellcat stealth for escapes.


avr wrote:

Faceless enforcer fits on flavour (though he's probably not actually a Hellknight?) but sucks on power. Neither of the vigilante talent replacements is as good as one of the better talents. The second is worse than a social talent.

Anyway, filling the details in so I can see how/if it works. Brawler 1 / avenger vigilante X.
1: TWF
Human 1: skill focus (stealth)
Brawler 1: improved unarmed strike
3: boar style
Talent 2: lethal grace
5: double slice
Talent 4: shield of blades
7: improved TWF
Talent 6: armor skin
Human 8: skill focus (intimidate)
9: hellcat stealth
Talent 8: signature weapon
11: greater TWF
Talent 10: take 'em alive
13: two-weapon rend
Talent 12: mad rush

Looks OK to me. Damage is 1d6 + Str + 2 + half vigilante level + enhancement bonus of your handwraps, another +3-4 attack and damage when doing nonlethal (bonus changes at vigilante 11, i.e character level 12). Power attack on top of that for about -4 attack/+8 damage/+4 AC. Extra damage when 2 attacks hit of 1d6 + 1d10 + 1.5*Str. Hellcat stealth for escapes.

Thats looks realy good thanks, but how get 1,5 Str damage?

And who is the Hellknight?( I dont know some Golarion lore)


Two-weapon rend for 1.5 Str on bonus damage when you hit with both hands.

Hellknights are a group of knightly orders. Faceless enforcers (at least in Golarion) are undercover hellknights.


avr wrote:

Two-weapon rend for 1.5 Str on bonus damage when you hit with both hands.

Ow, I forgot about that bonus rend

For build use belt or cristal to boost Dexterity?


Hellknight's logic is very similar to Wilhelm logic. I think he can be Hellknight


It's your character. If you want Wilhelm to be a Hellknight go for it. I'd still recommend against the faceless enforcer archetype though because it sacrifices two vigilante talents (each worth at least 2 feats) for the equivalent of about 2 feats total.

As I've written the above you'd get most use from a dex belt. If you go with faceless enforcer then you probably want a more Str-based character to go with heavy armor.


avr wrote:

It's your character. If you want Wilhelm to be a Hellknight go for it. I'd still recommend against the faceless enforcer archetype though because it sacrifices two vigilante talents (each worth at least 2 feats) for the equivalent of about 2 feats total.

As I've written the above you'd get most use from a dex belt. If you go with faceless enforcer then you probably want a more Str-based character to go with heavy armor.

Well, I dont want use heavy armor too. Medium armor with 16 dexterity and shild of blades give not bad armor


+4 Dex belt some expensive, so I can take only +2 version. And that means that I cant take Greater TWF, and I have free feat


maybe 1 level of Mutagen Brawler instead of 1 level of normal brawler can help with Dexterity


Boar style feats ads bonus dice damage and intimidate bonuses. But there are feats that can add constant bonus damage?(bonus weapon spec, two weapon rend and vigilante talents)


Pro100Andr wrote:
Boar style feats ads bonus dice damage and intimidate bonuses. But there are feats that can add constant bonus damage?(bonus weapon spec, two weapon rend and vigilante talents)

In the plan above you have all those feats already. Reading take 'em alive I'd be hesitant to go further down the boar style chain now, as it switches off when you have extra effects added to your attack. Maybe spend your now-extra feat on defence?


avr wrote:
Pro100Andr wrote:
Boar style feats ads bonus dice damage and intimidate bonuses. But there are feats that can add constant bonus damage?(bonus weapon spec, two weapon rend and vigilante talents)
In the plan above you have all those feats already. Reading take 'em alive I'd be hesitant to go further down the boar style chain now, as it switches off when you have extra effects added to your attack. Maybe spend your now-extra feat on defence?

You mean dodge?


I meant save bonuses or toughness, but dodge is an option too.


avr wrote:
I meant save bonuses or toughness, but dodge is an option too.

Well i think to change stealth focus and hellknight stealth for tougness and dodge.

For saves you Iron Will and such?


Note both skill focuses go if you do that. It's an alternate racial trait for the human's bonus feat.

If hellcat stealth is out he should have some other plan to get out if he gets in over his head.

Iron will or great fortitude, yes.


Bonuses from shield of blades and swing of shield are stuck?
Also for defence combat expiriance can give good defence


In social talents i pick Well Known Expert, Social Grace(Bluff, Diplomacy,sense motive, knowledge nature), Monkinbird, Quick change, Many Guise, Everyman


Shield of blades and shield of swings both give shield bonuses. They don't stack. Also shield of swings halves your damage and is usually a bad idea.

Combat expertise is usually a bad idea. Only use it if you need AC badly, or if you've got some way to deal with the attack bonus penalty. I think that's what you mean by combat expiriance?

If those social talents fit your idea, go for them.


avr wrote:


Combat expertise is usually a bad idea. Only use it if you need AC badly, or if you've got some way to deal with the attack bonus penalty. I think that's what you mean by combat expiriance?

I know that combat expertise bad fo AC due to penalties to attacks. But there arent good defencive feats, that adds more then +1 to AC

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