Wyrwood / Living Machine


Rules Questions


Hey everyone. I was hoping to get a little more clarification regarding the 'Living Machine' subtype for wyrwood characters. For anyone unfamiliar with what it does, here is the description:

Pathfinder SRD wrote:
Living Machine: Through generations of refining the techniques of creation, many young wyrwoods have become closer to organic beings than constructs. These wyrwoods are constructs with the living machine subtype. They gain a Constitution score and can be targeted by spells and effects that target living creatures or constructs, as well as those that require a Fortitude save. They are no longer immune to ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, exhaustion, or fatigue. Wyrwoods with this trait require sleep, but they do not need to breathe or eat. They are not destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points, instead becoming unconscious and stable. They are destroyed when reduced to a negative number of hit points equal to their Constitution score. They can be raised or resurrected when destroyed. This alters the wyrwood’s creature type.

My question is this - because they gain a constitution score, and because they can be targeted by spells and effects that target living creatures, AND because they need sleep...does this mean that the wyrwood lose other abilities as well.

For example, are wyrwood's still immune to non-lethal damage (I would think not since they have a Con score, and anything with a Con score is normally subject to non-lethal damage)?

Also, are they no longer immune to necromancy effects (again, I would think not since they can now be targeted by spells and effects that target living creatures)?

And finally, are wyrwood's still immune to sleep (as before, it doesn't seem so since the 'living machine' wyrwood now requires sleep)?

Any help would be appreciated.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Construct traits wrote:

No Constitution score. Any DCs or other statistics that rely on a Constitution score treat a construct as having a score of 10 (no bonus or penalty).

Low-light vision.
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Cannot heal damage on its own, but often can be repaired via exposure to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. Constructs can also be healed through spells such as make whole. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
Not subject to ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain, or nonlethal damage.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
A construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
A construct is hard to destroy, and gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the following table.
Construct Size Bonus Hit Points
Fine —
Diminutive —
Tiny —
Small 10
Medium 20
Large 30
Huge 40
Gargantuan 60
Colossal 80
Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

As written, Living Machine removes:

- Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
but it doesn't remove
- Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
nor
- Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
as those are different traits.

Now I can't check Heroes of Golarion to see if there is an actual template and not only that paragraph, but, as written in AoN, it seems decidedly broken.
I am under the impression that the author thought that "can be targeted by spells and effects that target living creatures or constructs" would remove those abilities, but not being a valid target is different from losing the immunity to those attacks.
A red dragon is a valid target for Scorching ray, but it is still immune to fire damage.


'They are no longer immune to ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, exhaustion, or fatigue.' vs. 'Not subject to ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain, or nonlethal damage.' suggests that living machine wyrwoods are still immune to nonlethal damage and this is probably RAI.

Whether 'Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.' still applies is seriously unclear. Are constructs immune to these because they're not living or for other reasons? No, I don't know either. I'd probably rule that a living machine could be affected by these because death effects is in the list, and becoming able to be targeted as a living creature should probably make you subject to death effects. YMMV.

'Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).' Probably still in effect. Which will generally mean that magical sleep effects can't work on them. If you accept my reasoning in the previous paragraph then sleep poisons will work.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I agree with avr and would rule that way in a home game (but see below). RAW, it maintains the majority of its construct traits, included the size bonus to hp plus its new constitution modifier to hp.

I checked Heroes of Golarion, there is no description of the Living machine subtype beside the text already cited.

Maintaining the immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning they essentially pay with a greater vulnerability to undead attacks the ability to be healed by normal cure spells (Make whole has a casting time of 10 minutes, so it isn't a great way to cure the wyrwoods, even if it is a cantrip), being raised, resurrected, having a chance of surviving negative hit points and getting a constitution modifier for hit points.

All-inclusive a more than acceptable trade as it doesn't cost RP points.

Using avr suggested house rule it would be necessary to re-evaluate the RP cost of being a construct.

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