Do Bandoliers only quick draw tools or any light items?


Rules Discussion

Scarab Sages

Bandolier: A bandolier holds up to eight items of light Bulk within easy reach and is usually used for alchemical items or potions. If you are carrying or stowing a bandolier rather than wearing it around your chest, it has light Bulk instead of negligible. A bandolier can be dedicated to a full set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them.

The first sentence seems to imply that it keeps any light item within "easy reach". The last sentence seems to imply that the quick draw effect only applies to tools. Which is right?

As long as they stick to the 8 item limit, can an alchemist use this to quick draw bombs for attacks? Or potions? What about weapons?

Could a rogue with nothing in their hands keep daggers in their bandolier and use Twin Feint, drawing the daggers "as part of the action that requires them"?

Could a thrown weapon user fill up a bandolier with javelins or darts or starknives and draw them as part of the action to attack with them?

Can someone with a buckler or other light shield (such as reflecting shield) raise their shield from a bandolier without the action to draw it? Can they also put it away for free?


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Given that a bandolier would obviate the need for class Feats that do the same thing, I would say not. There are no class Feats for quick drawing tool kits, though so it's just the kits that benefit

Scarab Sages

You're probably right, but I'm not entirely sure.

The bandolier doesn't do the same thing as the feats. It specifically calls out that it is "usually used for alchemical items and potions". A bomb is a light alchemical item.

An alchemist with the "Quick Bomber" feat could use their bandolier to store 8 potions/extracts/etc and still throw their bombs, whereas an alchemist without it would have to split that limit between their bombs and extracts/potions.

If a rogue can draw light weapons from a bandolier, that doesn't make "Quick Draw" useless as a number of weapons they can use aren't light, including the rapier, shortbow, and a number of racial weapons.

If a bandolier can only quick draw tools, then there is no point in using it for potions/alchemical items. If a bandolier can quick draw any light item held by it, then why would that not include weapons?


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The effect of a bandolier when holding items of light Bulk is that you don't need to spend the number of actions you would need to if the items were stored in your backpack or a sack in order to get them into your hands - and also so that you can put items of light Bulk somewhere other than in your hands or "dropped."

The effect of a bandolier when dedicated to a tool set is different.


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Pretty sure they discuss this on a recent "Roll for Combat" episode referencing a discussion with Mark Seifter

They work for tools only and absolutely cannot be used for potions. Absolutely hard "no" on the potions. (I think Mark apparently messaged the GM of RfC in all caps on that one)


Lanathar wrote:

Pretty sure they discuss this on a recent "Roll for Combat" episode referencing a discussion with Mark Seifter

They work for tools only and absolutely cannot be used for potions. Absolutely hard "no" on the potions. (I think Mark apparently messaged the GM of RfC in all caps on that one)

Well, they can certainly be used for potions, I believe you're saying you just wouldn't be able to draw and drink them with one action. Still faster than digging them put of a backpack, as someone pointed out.


mrspaghetti wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

Pretty sure they discuss this on a recent "Roll for Combat" episode referencing a discussion with Mark Seifter

They work for tools only and absolutely cannot be used for potions. Absolutely hard "no" on the potions. (I think Mark apparently messaged the GM of RfC in all caps on that one)

Well, they can certainly be used for potions, I believe you're saying you just wouldn't be able to draw and drink them with one action. Still faster than digging them put of a backpack, as someone pointed out.

But not faster than putting them in a belt pouch or pocket...

Scarab Sages

Okay, I think I understand now. So the bonus of a bandolier for non-tool items is that you don't have to waste an action (and two hands) taking off your backpack before drawing an item, saving you one action. For tools, you can draw them as part of your action to use them, saving you two actions, both which would need two hands.

This means that any throwing weapon build needs both quick draw and a bandolier to be effective with light thrown weapons and can attack eight times in a combat before needing both hands and two extra actions (to take off and put on backpack) per thrown weapon. Is this right?

I'm in a group right now where one person is trying to use a bandolier for javelins, another for bombs and potions, and another for healer's tools / thieves tools and they aren't sure about their action economy, so I want to make sure I'm not giving bad info.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That is not entirely right.

Quick draw will help a lot with throwing weapons, but they don't need to be in a bandolier, just in something more accessible than a backpack. Knives in sheaths, bombs in pouches and javelins in a quiver would all easily fit that criteria.

That doesn't mean you couldn't keep your knives or bombs in a bandolier if you want. Putting javelins in one... is hard to picture in a way that wouldn't be incredibly impractical.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber

You still need to interact with light things that are not tools to draw them, which is why the Quick feats exist to merge the interact with the strike. Even without the feat it is an advantage over things that are in your bag which requires more actions to get something.

Scarab Sages

HammerJack wrote:

Quick draw will help a lot with throwing weapons, but they don't need to be in a bandolier, just in something more accessible than a backpack. Knives in sheaths, bombs in pouches and javelins in a quiver would all easily fit that criteria.

That doesn't mean you couldn't keep your knives or bombs in a bandolier if you want. Putting javelins in one... is hard to picture in a way that wouldn't be incredibly impractical.

What's a quiver? Not in real-world terms, but in game terms. How many items does it hold? I don't see one listed anywhere in the book. If it's not in the book, then you couldn't use one by RAW to hold javelins, let alone arrows or anything else.

You could use a belt pouch for bombs, but that would only hold four of them. Sheaths for thrown daggers? So for a thrown dagger character you would have how many sheaths? 10, 20?

As there is no quiver (Please find one. I couldn't. I'd love to use one.), the bandolier would be the item to use to hold arrows, javelins, etc and would limit ranged weapons to 8 shots without having to use two hands to pull out your backpack and get more.

I completely agree that this doesn't make a great amount of sense, but I don't see a better option in the RAW.


Kios wrote:
What's a quiver?

Use a belt pouch: it holds 40 arrows so just call it a quiver.

Kios wrote:
You could use a belt pouch for bombs, but that would only hold four of them

How many do you need per fight? Using 2 pouches is 8 bombs which should be enough for a fight.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

There's at least one magical ammunition entry that mentions quivers to confirm they still exist in setting. You could use the cost and statd of another container, call it a quiver, and treat it as a quiver whenever it becomes relevant to some narrative action.

You could also decide no player can have arrows in a quiver until they get a formal entry, but that philosophy can give a lot of really silly results, like people eating from the ground until we learn what a table costs, so I would be hesitant to use it.


HammerJack wrote:

There's at least one magical ammunition entry that mentions quivers to confirm they still exist in setting. You could use the cost and statd of another container, call it a quiver, and treat it as a quiver whenever it becomes relevant to some narrative action.

You could also decide no player can have arrows in a quiver until they get a formal entry, but that philosophy can give a lot of really silly results, like people eating from the ground until we learn what a table costs, so I would be hesitant to use it.

Clearly, the only boat in pathfinder is the Feather Token...

Scarab Sages

Hey, I'm just trying to understand the rules and utilize them correctly. There is a lot of new information to learn and I'm trying not to assume rules from reality or from other games because my expectations and rules as written are often different.

That said, I like the idea of using a belt pouch or bandolier for ammo and just calling it a quiver for now until we get an official one. That alleviates my worries about ammunition.

Is there a limit on the number of bandoliers and belt pouches a person can have? I'd assume one bandolier and two belt pouches, but I wouldn't know where to look for the actual rule.

As for the boat thing: there are rules in the Equipment section for hiring a boat. There are no rules for owning a boat as a player outside the feather token. So, yeah, it is probably not intended for a player to own a boat outside of being part of the story, even though boats are plentiful in the setting. Just as it's probably not intended for a traveling adventurer to carry around tables or to need to buy their own tables to sit and eat somewhere. However: yeah, out in the wild you are eating off the ground. Why would you assume otherwise?


So, question:

If you put potions in a bandolier, what is the benefit over storing them in your backpack? It requires an action to draw them either way.

Scarab Sages

Drawing an item out of your backpack requires first removing your backpack which is an extra interact action that requires two hands. Then it is removed, so you have to use another action to put it back on. You could drop your backpack, but then it is still an action to pick it up and an action to draw your item.


Kios wrote:
Is there a limit on the number of bandoliers and belt pouches a person can have? I'd assume one bandolier and two belt pouches, but I wouldn't know where to look for the actual rule.

However many your DM allows: if he thinks 12 bandoliers and 20 belt pouches sounds right, that's the number


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

There is not some defined number of pouches and bandoliers possible. If you can reasonably describe where they go, or draw a picture, you probably haven't gone too far, yet.


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Chewbacca wore 2 bandoliers in Solo, so that would be allowed for sure at my table.

Shadow Lodge

PF1 Bandolier wrote:
You can wear up to two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and they get in each other’s way and restrict your movement).

There is no such rule in PF2, but it seems like more than two would be physically troublesome, either getting in each other's way or forcing additional Bandoliers into sub-optimal positioning on your body, negating their bonuses.


Kios wrote:
Drawing an item out of your backpack requires first removing your backpack which is an extra interact action that requires two hands. Then it is removed, so you have to use another action to put it back on. You could drop your backpack, but then it is still an action to pick it up and an action to draw your item.

Ah, there we go.

So, contrary to what was said on the podcast, actually yes, using a bandolier for potions reduces the number of actions needed.

From 2 (retrieve backpack, retrieve item)
To 1 (retrieve item)


I thought the podcast was saying the number of actions wasn't reduced as in

potion in belt pouch? 1 action to retrieve, 1 to drink.
potion in bandolier? 1 action to retrieve, 1 to drink.


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Draco18s wrote:
Kios wrote:
Drawing an item out of your backpack requires first removing your backpack which is an extra interact action that requires two hands. Then it is removed, so you have to use another action to put it back on. You could drop your backpack, but then it is still an action to pick it up and an action to draw your item.

Ah, there we go.

So, contrary to what was said on the podcast, actually yes, using a bandolier for potions reduces the number of actions needed.

From 2 (retrieve backpack, retrieve item)
To 1 (retrieve item)

It's JUST from a backpack or satchel that 2 actions are needed.

Core Rulebook pg. 271: "For example, drinking a potion stowed in your belt pouch requires using an Interact action to draw it and then using a second action to drink it as described in its Activate entry (page 532)."

Core Rulebook pg. 272: "Retrieve an item from a backpack or satchel, 2 Interact actions"


graystone wrote:
Kios wrote:
Is there a limit on the number of bandoliers and belt pouches a person can have? I'd assume one bandolier and two belt pouches, but I wouldn't know where to look for the actual rule.
However many your DM allows: if he thinks 12 bandoliers and 20 belt pouches sounds right, that's the number

I'm imagining a sadist GM doing this.

'Sure, you can wear twenty bandoliers. Keep strict track of what's in them. Why twenty? Well, I'll let you add ten more when the custom d30 I'm going to roll for breakage each combat arrives in the mail ... '


graystone wrote:

Ah, there we go.

So, contrary to what was said on the podcast, actually yes, using a bandolier for potions reduces the number of actions needed.

From 2 (retrieve backpack, retrieve item)
To 1 (retrieve item)

It's JUST from a backpack or satchel that 2 actions are needed.

Yes. That's what I said. By sticking an item in a bandolier (a belt pouch is effectively a bandolier around your belt area) you save 1 action.

Quote:

Core Rulebook pg. 271: "For example, drinking a potion stowed in your belt pouch requires using an Interact action to draw it and then using a second action to drink it as described in its Activate entry (page 532)."

Core Rulebook pg. 272: "Retrieve an item from a backpack or satchel, 2 Interact actions"

So, p271 says drinking a potion in your belt pouch or bandolier is 2 actions (1 to retrieve, 1 to drink) and drinking one in your backpack is 3 (2 to retrieve, 1 to drink).

2 actions is 1 less than 3 actions. The actions I noted in my earlier post were just the "retrieve" portion, not including the 1 action to drink, and including the footnote on p272 about why your backpack takes 2 actions (the first action is spent unshouldering your pack, the second retrieving the item from the pack).


As for the "why don't I just store things in my pockets" talk, not sure what the default is in golarion. But it actually took a long time for pockets to be sewn into clothing as a default. The belt pouch was the common way to do it for the longest time (which is why cutpurses and pick pockets were things).


Retrieving an entire kit not taking any actions from a bandolier is ridiculous compared to retrieving a single potion or bomb as an action from the same container.

Even with balance purposes in place, you can't tell me that it's easier to pull out multiple tools/objects compared to a single object, especially if we compare Battle Medicine to an appropriately leveled potion. Why have potions or bombs if they are so damn clunky to use?


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Why have potions or bombs if they are so damn clunky to use?

Taking into consideration that it takes an ENTIRE action to put a hand back on a weapon, a whole action to pull out a potion or bomb seems quick. The no action for a bandolier kits is damn near supernaturally fast in comparison.

Scarab Sages

It would be nice to see a feat for quick drawing potions and extracts as well as a feat that allows player to either put a hand back on a weapon or put a weapon away as either a free action or as part of an action.

It does seem silly that the alchemist gets a feat to quick draw that benefits only bombers and not other types of alchemists. It also seems silly that quick draw makes it easier to draw a weapon and attack than to replace a hand and attack.

Also, I would totally pay a feat tax to be able to put away a weapon as a free action so I could make an Iaijutsu user or just be able to switch weapons without wasting actions or throwing stuff on the ground all the time.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Retrieving an entire kit not taking any actions from a bandolier is ridiculous compared to retrieving a single potion or bomb as an action from the same container.

Even with balance purposes in place, you can't tell me that it's easier to pull out multiple tools/objects compared to a single object, especially if we compare Battle Medicine to an appropriately leveled potion. Why have potions or bombs if they are so damn clunky to use?

At this point you will simply have to accept that we're talking about a game, where game mechanics/balance trumps realism.

Why aren't heroes able to run really fast? Why are crossbows ridiculously fast to reload? How come heroes never have to go to the bathroom or die of bad hygiene? Why can't you kill a hero with a single knife to the eye? How can dragons fly? Why are dragons even in the game?

In other words, feel free to jump down a rabbit hole of endless realism. But don't expect the game designers to cater to your personal hangups.

In other words, there really is only one answer to your questions:

Because kit use wasn't deemed powerful enough to merit a higher action cost, while bomb use was.

If anything you'll find a tendency for mundane tools to be unrealistically strong and quick, just to be able to compete with magic and alchemy, even if barely.

The question I would ask myself is: how can anyone complain about saving an action by putting your kit in a bandoleer, in a game where the rules allow some characters to do a Medicine check that normally takes ten minutes in a single 2-second action.

I mean; it's a fantasy game that is only intermittently connected to reality, so why not simply go with the flow...


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Retrieving an entire kit not taking any actions from a bandolier is ridiculous compared to retrieving a single potion or bomb as an action from the same container.

Even with balance purposes in place, you can't tell me that it's easier to pull out multiple tools/objects compared to a single object, especially if we compare Battle Medicine to an appropriately leveled potion. Why have potions or bombs if they are so damn clunky to use?

I guess the point is to have everything within your reach.

Imagine to have a healing kit which contains bandages, herbs, tools, vials, etc...

On the one hand, you could have a bag full of items needed to any possible situation.

With a bandolier you will have all this items divided in little slots, within your reach.

You won't need the while kit, but part of it.

With this I am not saying that I do not agree with you, but that I think that is the real use of the bandolier.

Given the action economy, in terms of balance I would simply give 8 slots per characters with the possibility of drawing an item as a free action.

Then they will decide if to put there a potion, a bomb or the whole kit occupying all 8 slots.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
Kios wrote:
Is there a limit on the number of bandoliers and belt pouches a person can have? I'd assume one bandolier and two belt pouches, but I wouldn't know where to look for the actual rule.
However many your DM allows: if he thinks 12 bandoliers and 20 belt pouches sounds right, that's the number

That's Rob Liefeld levels of pouches right there... Well. Maybe a little on the low side for him...

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