Need official answer or link on using Combat Flexibility for archetype feats


Rules Discussion


We've run into this problem again, which was present in the playtest but hasn't been resolved since, and it seems to be caused entirely by some unnecessarily confusing wording.

Page 142: Table 3-12 indicates that at every even-numbered level, the character gains a "fighter feat".

Page 142: "Fighter feats" says that at every even-numbered level, the character gains a "fighter class feat", and that "fighter class feats" are listed on page 144.

Page 144: has that list, but it is headed "Fighter feats"; not "fighter class feats."

Page 143: Combat Flexibility states that, when you make your daily preparations, you gain one "fighter feat" of 8th level or lower that you don't have.

Page 219: "Select the archetype's dedication feat using one of your "class feat" choices."

Page 219, again: "For example, if you gained an ability at 6th level that granted you a 4th-level class feat with the dwarf trait, you could swap out that class feat only for an archetype feat of 4th level or lower with the dwarf trait." (There is no such ability, neither does any archetype feat have the Dwarf trait. However, this does establish that the fact that a feat is granted by an ability does not prevent it being swapped with an archetype feat.)

Therefore, all of the evidence seems to be that you can take archetype feats, possibly even dedications, with Fighter Flexibility.

Arguing that a "fighter feat" is not a class feat leaves it either impossible for fighters to take Dedications at all (because they get "fighter class feats" or "fighter feats", never "class feats"), or to take feats at all (because they get "fighter class feats", but have only a list of "fighter feats")

This really seems to be unnecessary confusion created by a tiny choice of word and seems a prime errata candidate, so could it please be clarified?

Shadow Lodge

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Fighter is a trait that 'indicates abilities from the fighter class.'

I'd read 'one fighter feat of 8th level or lower that you don’t already have' as being one feat with the 'Fighter' trait.


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Instead of parsing the rules like a lawyer or philosopher, read them as if a friend were communicating to a friend. The intent seems pretty straightforward to me.

PF2 tossed out the rules idolatry that 3.X introduced, thank goodness.


Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Fighter is a trait that 'indicates abilities from the fighter class.'

I'd read 'one fighter feat of 8th level or lower that you don’t already have' as being one feat with the 'Fighter' trait.

Unfortunately, again by that reading a fighter could never take a dedication feat at all because a "fighter class feat" would mean a class feat with the Fighter trait, which no dedication feat has.

Castilliano wrote:

Instead of parsing the rules like a lawyer or philosopher, read them as if a friend were communicating to a friend. The intent seems pretty straightforward to me.

Thing is, friends also answer when you ask "what do you mean here?", and a book can't. Since we already are, by gradual erosion, getting cases where "dealing the damage of a Strike" and "hit with a Strike" have an important difference, this won't scale up over time.


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While there is no rules text which specifically excludes taking archetype feats with your Combat Flexibility feature - I encourage a moment spent thinking about intent.

Combat Flexibility is intended to give the fighter class more ability to tailor their combat style toward a particular thing - one day go this way, the next go this other way - to help them fill their role.

Archetype feats are intended to represent specialized training, and are typically saddled with requirements and restrictions that make it take very deliberate effort to get them - it's not flavored as stuff you figure out on your own while doing your daily drills.


hyphz wrote:
Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Fighter is a trait that 'indicates abilities from the fighter class.'

I'd read 'one fighter feat of 8th level or lower that you don’t already have' as being one feat with the 'Fighter' trait.

Unfortunately, again by that reading a fighter could never take a dedication feat at all because a "fighter class feat" would mean a class feat with the Fighter trait, which no dedication feat has.

Well, no? like, what is your goal here? you can't use combat flexibility to gain dedication feats, only fighter feats. So lets say you're normally built as a sword and shield fighter, so you didn't take the snagging strike feat. At 9th level you could use combat flexibility to gain snagging strike for the day because your shield broke yesterday or whatever.

a fighter feat is a class feat, they are the same. There are no fighter feats that are not class feats, there's no reason to say fighter class feat every single time. There are, however, class feats that are not fighter feats. When you take an archetype feat, for example.

Combat Flexibility actually helps with fighters who take archetype feats, since you're trading out class feats for archetype feats. So lets say you're a Fighter that's swapped out the feats you gain at 2,4,6, and 8 for wizard archetype feats. at 9th level, you could use combat flexibility to temporarily have one of the fighter feats you could have otherwise chosen at those levels.

All the classes are labeled and tagged the way you referred to page 144, in a given classes description, it will call it [[class name]] class feat and just refer to them as [[class name]] feats after that point. fighter is a class, therefor a feat with the fighter tag is a fighter class feat.


ofMars wrote:


Well, no? like, what is your goal here? you can't use combat flexibility to gain dedication feats, only fighter feats.

I am not sure why everyone is so sure of this. Is there a clear reference for this? If there is then please point me to it.

Combat Flexibility does not say you can gain archetype feats, but no point where you gain feats does. The archetypes section says you can take one whenever you would gain a class feat, and as you mentioned a fighter feat is a class feat; if it is not, then the fighter can never take an archetype feat because they only ever get "fighter feats" or "fighter class feats", never "class feats".


I'd assume the goal is to have clarification on Combat Flexibility. By the rules of how you can select archetype feats, @ofMars, you're wrong. You select them in place of a class feat you'd select. Combat flexibility allows you to select a class feat... you just can't use it for prerequisites. I mean, I kinda feel like you shouldn't be able to select an Archetype with Flexibility, but I see nothing prohibiting it and all the rules as they appear seem to allow for it.

@Castilliano: Great, so let our friend Paizo respond with an answer. If I tell my child they can select 3 candies from the store, but they can always choose to select a pack of baseball cards instead of a candy, and then the next day, I tell they they can select one additional candy, it'd be pretty logical of my child to assume they could select a pack of baseball cards instead of that candy... No one's being a lawyer here, we're just trying to figure out what mom and dad Paizo are allowing us to choose.


I'm not saying that you can use combat flexibility to gain dedication feats, I'm saying the opposite. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the OP, but it seems like he's saying either fighters have to be able to use flexibility to gain dedication feats, or they can't gain dedication feats at all.

Fighter is a class, so a fighter feat is a class feat. All fighter feats are class feats, but not all class feats are fighter feats, so not all class feats can be chosen with Combat Flexibility.

At level 2, a fighter gains a fighter feat of 2nd level or lower. Specifically, I can take Exacting Strike, Point-blank shot, Power attack, Snagging strike, Reactive shield, Sudden Charge, Aggressive Block, Assisting Shot, Brutish Shove, Combat Grab, Dueling Parry, Intimidating Strike, or Lunge, excluding of course any of the level 1 feat or feats I already chose at 1st level. I decide I want to take an archetype instead, so I forego taking one of the listed feats and take the archetype feat Wizard Dedication.

I continue this pattern all the way through level 8. At 2, I took wizard dedication, at 4 I took basic spell casting, at 6 I took Advanced Arcana, and at 8 I took Arcane breadth.

At last, I am level 9, and gain the combat flexibility class feature. As part of my daily preparations, I choose to gain Lunge, a level 2 fighter feat that I do not currently have since I spent all my class feats on archetype feats. Until my next daily preparations, I have Lunge. I CANNOT on the next day use my combat flexibility to gain, for example, Basic Arcana, because that is not a fighter feat.

All this nonsense about not being able to take dedication feats is absurd, given that every single class uses this convention for their class feats. Monk feats are only referred to as monk class feats on page 156, Ranger feats are only referred to as ranger class feats on page 168, and so on. The word "class" is not a tag for feats, the classes themselves are, and the feats with these tags are, in fact, class feats.


Quote:
At level 2, a fighter gains a fighter feat of 2nd level or lower. Specifically, I can take Exacting Strike, Point-blank shot, Power attack, Snagging strike, Reactive shield, Sudden Charge, Aggressive Block, Assisting Shot, Brutish Shove, Combat Grab, Dueling Parry, Intimidating Strike, or Lunge, excluding of course any of the level 1 feat or feats I already chose at 1st level. I decide I want to take an archetype instead, so I forego taking one of the listed feats and take the archetype feat Wizard Dedication.

And that is the issue.

In order to take that archetype feat, you have to give up a "class feat".

If gaining a "fighter feat" through your class gives you a feat that can be traded for an archetype feat, then the "fighter feat" that Combat Flexibility gives you can be so traded also. The words "fighter feat" cannot mean two different things in different places for no reason and with no text saying so.

For the same reason, if gaining a "fighter feat" does NOT give you a feat that can be traded for an archetype feat, then you can never take an archetype feat because you will never have a "class feat" to trade, only "fighter feats".


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hyphz wrote:


If gaining a "fighter feat" through your class gives you a feat that can be traded for an archetype feat, then the "fighter feat" that Combat Flexibility gives you can be so traded also. The words "fighter feat" cannot mean two different things in different places for no reason and with no text saying so.

a fighter feat is by definition a class feat, but a class feat is not by definition a fighter feat, one contains the other. Archetypes let you trade class feats for them, Combat Flexibility does not. It's not a two-way trade. An archetype feat is not a fighter feat. Normally, gaining a class feat is permanent outside of retraining. Combat flexibility lets you temporarily gain a fighter feat, i.e. a feat with the fighter tag. Archetype feats do not have this tag. They don't inherit this tag just because you traded a the chance to take a feat that did have the tag for it.

Combat flexibility essentially says "gain a fighter feat for a day" An archetype feat is not a fighter feat, so you can't choose it with combat flexibility.

Grand Lodge

hyphz wrote:

I am not sure why everyone is so sure of this. Is there a clear reference for this? If there is then please point me to it.

Combat Flexibility does not say you can gain archetype feats, but no point where you gain feats does. The archetypes section says you can take one whenever you would gain a class feat, and as you mentioned a fighter feat is a class feat; if it is not, then the fighter can never take an archetype feat because they only ever get "fighter feats" or "fighter class feats", never "class feats".

the term "class feats" is a general term defined on page 68. "... class feats -- special feats that only members of that class can access".

Fighter class feats are a subgroup of class feats (those specific to fighter).

Pg. 219 "Start by finding the archetype's feat dedication USING ONE OF YOUR CLASS FEAT CHOICES". This language allows all character classes access to the archetype using their class feats. Ie fighters use fighter class feats, wizards use wizard class feats etc.

Combat Flexibility says you gain a fighter feat. Ie, a feat with the keyword fighter. These are Conveniently listed on page 144. Because dedications do not contain the keyword "Fighter" they are ineligible for Combat flexibility.

see pg 632 in the glossary: fighter (trait) This indicates abilities
from the fighter class,

see also p 637 glossary: trait "a keyword that conveys information about a rules element"


Well now that I read " Once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat [[i.e., fighter feat]] as long as you meet its prerequisites." maybe I am wrong, so I guess this does need clarification. I would still rule that you can't use it to take archetype feats RAI, as combat flexibility seems to harken back to bonus feats and martial flexibility being limited "combat feats" in 1e.

I'm also still pretty sure that select here refers to the choices you make when you level up, not any time you get to choose feats ever, but I can see the way it could be read to get all rules lawyer about it.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Castilliano wrote:
PF2 tossed out the rules idolatry that 3.X introduced, thank goodness.

What? The P2E rules are more heavily codified and strictly structured then the P1E rules ever were.


Jared Walter 356 wrote:
hyphz wrote:

I am not sure why everyone is so sure of this. Is there a clear reference for this? If there is then please point me to it.

Combat Flexibility does not say you can gain archetype feats, but no point where you gain feats does. The archetypes section says you can take one whenever you would gain a class feat, and as you mentioned a fighter feat is a class feat; if it is not, then the fighter can never take an archetype feat because they only ever get "fighter feats" or "fighter class feats", never "class feats".

the term "class feats" is a general term defined on page 68. "... class feats -- special feats that only members of that class can access".

Fighter class feats are a subgroup of class feats (those specific to fighter).

Pg. 219 "Start by finding the archetype's feat dedication USING ONE OF YOUR CLASS FEAT CHOICES". This language allows all character classes access to the archetype using their class feats. Ie fighters use fighter class feats, wizards use wizard class feats etc.

Combat Flexibility says you gain a fighter feat. Ie, a feat with the keyword fighter. These are Conveniently listed on page 144. Because dedications do not contain the keyword "Fighter" they are ineligible for Combat flexibility.

see pg 632 in the glossary: fighter (trait) This indicates abilities
from the fighter class,

see also p 637 glossary: trait "a keyword that conveys information about a rules element"

This argument doesn't hold water. If you look at the rules for "class feat" under fighter, it states the following: "At 1st level and every even-numbered level thereafter, you gain a fighter class feat." By your interpretation, you couldn't take a dedication with a regular class feat either, because those specifically state fighter class feats..


ofMars wrote:

Well now that I read " Once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat [[i.e., fighter feat]] as long as you meet its prerequisites." maybe I am wrong, so I guess this does need clarification. I would still rule that you can't use it to take archetype feats RAI, as combat flexibility seems to harken back to bonus feats and martial flexibility being limited "combat feats" in 1e.

I'm also still pretty sure that select here refers to the choices you make when you level up, not any time you get to choose feats ever, but I can see the way it could be read to get all rules lawyer about it.

Yeah, that's the problem though, we're basing the intent on historical knowledge we have of the PF1 system. There's really no reason to assume that's valid anymore...

Once again, though, please stop indicating this is a "rules lawyer" thing. Someone completely new to tabletop gaming would probably read this as the OP has read this. They're not "rules lawyer"ing, they're reading the rules and doing what seems obvious. We're coming from a different perspective, having played PF1/earlier D&D.


Yeah, the argument now has to be clarifying the verb language rather than the noun language. It's not about class vs fighter, it's about what it means to "gain" or "select." Can archetypes feats only be "gained" or "selected" when you level up, the usual time for choosing feats, or can they also be gained or selected any time an ability says you can gain or select them? Combat Flexibility says "gain" a feat with certain prerequisites, and the rules for archetype technically meet those prerequisites, because they can be chosen instead of class feats. I still think it's silly. Filing this under weird quirk of the rules language along with magic fang not working on animal companions and parry weapons provoking attack of opportunity.


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really, all you'd need to change in combat flexibility is say "gain the benefits of a fighter feat" instead of "gain a fighter feat"

Grand Lodge

tivadar27 wrote:

This argument doesn't hold water. If you look at the rules for "class feat" under fighter, it states the following: "At 1st level and every even-numbered level thereafter, you gain a fighter class feat." By your interpretation, you couldn't take a dedication with a regular class feat either, because those specifically state fighter class feats..

Not sure how you are so blatantly misrepresenting what I said. Did you even read page 68 and page 219???

A class feat choice when happens when you level up every even numbered level, a few classes get one at 1st. These are eligible for dedication feats because the specific text on 219 allows it. The specifics of 219 allow you to use a class feat selection (any class feat selection: fighter, wizard, rogue etc). All fighter class feat selections are class feat selections.

However, not all class feat selections are fighter feats. The text of Combat flexibility states a fighter feat, not a fighter class feat selection. A fighter feat is one that contains the keyword fighter.

To put it more simply, when you level up as a fighter and gain a class feat. That can be a fighter feat (because you are a fighter), or a dedication feat because these are allowed by a class feat selection.

Dedication feats are not fighter feats. Period end of sentence. They are allowed using one of your "class feat selections." Fighter class feat selection, wizard class feat selection, etc. More simply you can only pick up dedications when you level up, because that is the only time you are making class feat selections. see page 31 step 4 on leveling up: select feats. also on page 31 it states that you can use class feats to take an archetype.

All fighter feats are contained within the class feat selection, but not all class feat selections are fighter feats.


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No, I was in the same thought process as you, but that's not their argument. Their argument is this:

When you level up, you gain a fighter class feat. Because of the rules as written for archetype feats, you can instead choose to gain an archetype feat.

When you use combat flexibility, you gain a fighter feat. ( and remember, as we've been saying every time, a fighter feat is a class feat) because of the rules as written for archetype feats, you can instead choose to gain an archetype feat.

The fact that you only gain it until your next daily preparations is immaterial to the fact that the language for gaining a class feat is ultimately the same as when you level up.

It's really dumb, and I believe it goes against the rules as intended, but because the rules for archetype feats don't explicitly indicate they are only choices to be made when leveling up instead of choices to be made anytime some element of the game lets you gain a feat, it works. In my own games, combat flexibility is going to let you gain the benefits of a fighter feat, rather than gain a fighter feat, and that will solve this whole mess


ofMars wrote:

No, I was in the same thought process as you, but that's not their argument. Their argument is this:

When you level up, you gain a fighter class feat. Because of the rules as written for archetype feats, you can instead choose to gain an archetype feat.

When you use combat flexibility, you gain a fighter feat. ( and remember, as we've been saying every time, a fighter feat is a class feat) because of the rules as written for archetype feats, you can instead choose to gain an archetype feat.

The fact that you only gain it until your next daily preparations is immaterial to the fact that the language for gaining a class feat is ultimately the same as when you level up.

It's really dumb, and I believe it goes against the rules as intended, but because the rules for archetype feats don't explicitly indicate they are only choices to be made when leveling up instead of choices to be made anytime some element of the game lets you gain a feat, it works. In my own games, combat flexibility is going to let you gain the benefits of a fighter feat, rather than gain a fighter feat, and that will solve this whole mess

Thanks for the clarification here @ofMars. I'm not intending to misrepresent what you're saying here (@Jared Walter). You've said yourself that fighter feats are a subtype of class feats. I thought that you were arguing because you specifically gained a fighter feat and not a generic class feat with Combat Flexibility, that that would prohibit you from taking an archetype/multiclass feat. I was pointing out that the wording for your even-numbered class feats state "you gain a fighter class feat", so it's essentially the same as Combat Flexibility: you gain a class feat that's of the fighter subtype.

Honestly, I don't know what the intention was/is. History tells us that these were meant to be specifically fighter feats, but history also tells us that Monks can't use a shield and gain really good unarmored proficiency... PF2 is fairly different from PF1, so who knows, maybe they wanted to give fighters additional flexibility.


Yeah, the fact that fighter Feats are the same as class Feats is essential to the argument; I think they were just getting ahead of the logic that someone might present that a fighter feat is not a class feat when they were talking about not being able to take dedication Feats at all. In order to make it so Fighters can truly only take fighter feats with combat flexibility, they either need to change the wording of the archetype rules to say that you can only get archetypes as part of the process of leveling up, or they need to change the combat flexibility wording to say you gain the benefits of the fighter feat rather than you gain a fighter feat. I really don't think this was the intent, it's sort of absurd to think that a 9th level fighter can on a daily basis gain a couple cantrips


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would argue based on this text: "The archetype feat you select is still subject to any selection restrictions on the class feat it replaces", along with the fact that the Fighter class description says you gain a "fighter class feat" while Combat Flexibility says you gain a "fighter feat".

In combination with those, consider the wording of the Metamagical Experimentation wizard thesis (I promise I am going somewhere here): "You gain a 1st-level metamagic wizard feat as a bonus feat."

Taken together, here is my argument:

"A 1st level metamagic wizard feat" obviously means a 1st level feat that has the Metamagic and Wizard traits. Note that this does not say "metamatic wizard class feat". Therefore, we can presume that if the word "class" is not present, descriptors are meant to describe traits.

Therefore, "you gain a fighter feat" means a feat with the Fighter trait. Normally, gaining a fighter class feat means you have gained a feat slot that you may fill with any fighter feat (that is, any feat with the fighter trait). Taking an archetype expands this option ("Once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites" (emphasis mine)).

However, Combat Flexibility does not grant you a fighter class feat - it grants you a fighter feat (a feat with the Fighter trait). Therefore, because "the archetype feat you select is still subject to any selection restrictions on the class feat it replaces", you theoretically could select an archetype feat but only if it had the Fighter trait, since that is a restriction on the class feat being replaced.

Q.E.D. :)


we've already been over this. A fighter class feat and a fighter feat are the same. There is no distinction. Fighter is a class, so a fighter feat is a class feat. Class is not a tag, it's implied by any tag that is a class. There are no fighter feats that are not class feats


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I don't see any wording anywhere that says they are the same thing, and in fact the two terms seem to be use quite distinctly.

I would suggest applying the legal standard whereby if there are two possible interpretations, and one of them leads to a ridiculous outcome (namely, a fighter class feature called "combat flexibility" letting you take Pathfinder feats that have nothing to do with combat or being a fighter), the other interpretation is correct.

Grand Lodge

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tivadar27 wrote:


I'm not intending to misrepresent what you're saying here (@Jared Walter). You've said yourself that fighter feats are a subtype of class feats.

Let me clarify, because you are misunderstanding what I have said. I have never said "Fighter Feats" are "Class Feats". "Fighter Class Feats" and "Fighter Feats" are different terms that are not interchangeable. I have said that "Fighter Class Feats" are a subcategory of "Class Feats"

Fighter feats are those feats tagged with the keyword fighter. Nothing more, nothing less. Only those feats with this tag are fighter feats. Nothing without the tag is a fighter feat.

A "Class Feat" are those feat selections you can make at every even level as described on page 31. These class feats allow you to select either a "Fighter Feat" or an "Archetype Feat". Since leveling up is the only time use select a "Class Feat" this is the only time you can select an "Archetype Feat"

Since page 31 on leveling up is the only place you make a "class feat selection"

A "Fighter Class Feat" is a class feat that may be used to select either a "Fighter Feat" or an "Archetype Feat" as a permanent choice, unless retrained.

Combat flexibility does not give you a "Fighter Class Feat" it gives you a "Fighter Feat". Ie, one with the tag fighter.

I would agree that it isn't as clear as it might be, but the root cause is confusing a "fighter class feat" with a "fighter feat" these are not the same thing.

Liberty's Edge

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Jared Walter 356 wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:


I'm not intending to misrepresent what you're saying here (@Jared Walter). You've said yourself that fighter feats are a subtype of class feats.

Let me clarify, because you are misunderstanding what I have said. I have never said "Fighter Feats" are "Class Feats". "Fighter Class Feats" and "Fighter Feats" are different terms that are not interchangeable. I have said that "Fighter Class Feats" are a subcategory of "Class Feats"

Fighter feats are those feats tagged with the keyword fighter. Nothing more, nothing less. Only those feats with this tag are fighter feats. Nothing without the tag is a fighter feat.

As a for instance, the rules allow a feat like this to exist:

Crap I Just Made Up wrote:

PERSONAL WEAPONS CARE

(Fighter, General, Skill)
Prerequisites: trained in Crafting
You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Crafting checks made to Repair weapons from the weapon group you selected for Fighter Weapon Mastery. You must have the Fighter Weapon Mastery class ability to select this feat.

This is a fighter feat. It is not a fighter class feat.


@Jared, Shisumo: Ahh okay, I see what you're saying here. Sorry that I misrepresented what you had said earlier, as this debate is fairly complicated.

My one argument against this is that it's a bit counterintuitive (it definitely needs clarification). The argument is basically this:
1. You can replace a class feat with an archetype feat, even if it's a typed class feat such as "fighter".
2. Fighter gives you fighter class feats every even numbered level, therefor you can replace those with archetype feats.
3. Combat Flexibility grants you a fighter feat, which may or may not be a class feat.
4. Because Combat Flexibility grants you a fighter feat that may or may not be a class feat, but not a class feat that is also a fighter feat, you cannot replace it with an archetype feat.

Did I summarize this correctly? If so, it's *very* confusing that "class (fighter)" feats can be replaced with archetype feats but not "any (fighter)" feats... Especially when archetypes only state they allow for class feats, and not typed class feats to be replaced... Still, I acknowledge this could be and likely is the intent here.

Liberty's Edge

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tivadar27 wrote:

@Jared, Shisumo: Ahh okay, I see what you're saying here. Sorry that I misrepresented what you had said earlier, as this debate is fairly complicated.

My one argument against this is that it's a bit counterintuitive (it definitely needs clarification). The argument is basically this:
1. You can replace a class feat with an archetype feat, even if it's a typed class feat such as "fighter".
2. Fighter gives you fighter class feats every even numbered level, therefor you can replace those with archetype feats.
3. Combat Flexibility grants you a fighter feat, which may or may not be a class feat.
4. Because Combat Flexibility grants you a fighter feat that may or may not be a class feat, but not a class feat that is also a fighter feat, you cannot replace it with an archetype feat.

Did I summarize this correctly?

I won't speak for Jared, but that's how I see it, yes.

tivadar27 wrote:
If so, it's *very* confusing that "class (fighter)" feats can be replaced with archetype feats but not "any (fighter)" feats... Especially when archetypes only state they allow for class feats, and not typed class feats to be replaced... Still, I acknowledge this could be and likely is the intent here.

Reading for "intent" is never an exact science, but that's my belief, yeah.


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If it is a feat with the fighter trait it is a valid target.

An archetype feat is not that and is a specific that overrides the general (the general being that as you level you can choose a fighter class feat).

Combat flexibility specifies fighter feats to open up the design space for fighter skill and fighter general feats imo.

This is why the trait system exists :D

Grand Lodge

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tivadar27 wrote:


Did I summarize this correctly?

Yes, you have the Gist of my point.

Additional clarity to this process is found on Pg. 219 because it states used your class feats "using one of your class feat choices". Rather than just saying using a class feat.

and pg 31 is also where it spells out that you make class feat choices during level up.

It is made more obscure by the summarizing on the class tables using terms like fighter feat, instead of saying as the do in the class introductions "select class feats"

I will definitely admit it could be more clear, but as intended I am as certain as possible that Fighter Flexibility is restricted to those feats with the Fighter trait.


"Fighter gives you fighter class feats every even numbered level.."

Unfortunately, in the levelling-up table, it tells you it gives you "fighter feats". In the later section headed "fighter feats", it says that a "fighter feat" means a "fighter class feat". So the distinction gets confused again.


Jared Walter 356 wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:


Did I summarize this correctly?

Yes, you have the Gist of my point.

Additional clarity to this process is found on Pg. 219 because it states used your class feats "using one of your class feat choices". Rather than just saying using a class feat.

and pg 31 is also where it spells out that you make class feat choices during level up.

It is made more obscure by the summarizing on the class tables using terms like fighter feat, instead of saying as the do in the class introductions "select class feats"

I will definitely admit it could be more clear, but as intended I am as certain as possible that Fighter Flexibility is restricted to those feats with the Fighter trait.

I think I agree with you, but I will say that just because you make class feat choices while leveling up doesn't mean you don't make them elsewhere. The wording, however, does match, so I'd agree that's the intent and probably the most likely/correct ruling (that it's specifically referring to those choices and not the "choice" you make when you gain a fighter feat for Combat Flexibility).

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Need official answer or link on using Combat Flexibility for archetype feats All Messageboards

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