How long are you stunned from Daze on a critical failure?


Rules Discussion


I'm trying to parse the daze cantrip's stun effect when you critically fail the Will save. On one paw, it says 'stunned 1' in the text, which means you lose one action on your next turn. On the other paw, it has a duration of 1 round, which means you lose all actions on your next turn. Which one is it?

Stunned condition is supposed to have either a condition value or a duration, but daze has both, and its duration can't realistically apply for anything but stunning. Can it?


Even not knowing the rules I'd go by logic.

A ray of frost will slow the target by 10 feet per 1 round on a critical hit.

Would a daze cantrip remove 1 action or 3 action?


Daze wrote:

DazeCantrip 1

CantripEnchantmentMentalNonlethal
Source Core Rulebook pg. 327
Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Range 60 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving Throw Will; Duration 1 round
You cloud the target's mind and daze it with a mental jolt. The jolt deals mental damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier; the target must attempt a basic Will save. If the target critically fails the save, it is also stunned 1.
Heightened (+2) The damage increases by 1d6.
Stunned wrote:

Stunned

Source Core Rulebook pg. 622
You’ve become senseless. You can’t act while stunned. Stunned usually includes a value, which indicates how many total actions you lose, possibly over multiple turns, from being stunned. Each time you regain actions (such as at the start of your turn), reduce the number you regain by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by the number of actions you lost. For example, if you were stunned 4, you would lose all 3 of your actions on your turn, reducing you to stunned 1; on your next turn, you would lose 1 more action, and then be able to use your remaining 2 actions normally. Stunned might also have a duration instead of a value, such as “stunned for 1 minute.” In this case, you lose all your actions for the listed duration.

Stunned overrides slowed. If the duration of your stunned condition ends while you are slowed, you count the actions lost to the stunned condition toward those lost to being slowed. So, if you were stunned 1 and slowed 2 at the beginning of your turn, you would lose 1 action from stunned, and then lose only 1 additional action by being slowed, so you would still have 1 action remaining to use that turn.

Ambiguous Rules wrote:

Ambiguous Rules

Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

So, either a critical fail makes the target lose all of its actions and the stunned 1 is a typo, or the duration reinforces that the stunned 1 condition doesn't last more than 1 round or is a typo itself. One of these seems too good to be true IMO.


Target loses one action on a crit fail, as per Stunned 1.

The duration covers the part until the target's turn, during which they cannot act (w/ say a Reaction or triggered Free Action).
So if the target went right before the caster, they'd have a whole round of no Reactions (et al). If they go right after the caster, then they'd pay the price immediately (losing 1 action) and the spell is effectively over since the condition's over.


Naal wrote:
Stunned condition is supposed to have either a condition value or a duration, but daze has both, and its duration can't realistically apply for anything but stunning. Can it?

That's not quite what the Stunned condition says about duration.

It says "might also have a duration instead of a value", which means that bit of text only matters if a duration is present and a value isn't.

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