Sorcerer the poor man's everything


Advice

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Salamileg wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Huh.

This thread makes a nice change from the "ArCaNe EVoLuTiOn mAKeS WiaZaRdS OBSolEET" posts I've waded through recently.

The forum is awash in panicky threads of people claiming class X is so hosed, for just about every possible value of X.
People seem to like bards, at least

Bards are pretty awesome. Fun to play. Interesting options.


Draco18s wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
Okay... I'm referring to the amount healed by the casting of a single spell. I already stated that overall the Cleric could heal more HPs than the Sorcerer given all their slots.
You said "more powerful overall." Overall means the whole chassis. Is FeatA better than FeatB? Yes. But that isn't "more powerful, overall, all things considered."

"Overall" in that context was intended to mean over all relevant feats considered, not over all castings. I understand how that could be interpreted the other way now though.

I honestly don't find it particularly valuable to look at total amount of HP healed, as you're unlikely to use *all* of your slots on heals. The more important thing is how much HP you can restore to an ally in the moment when they need it and how many actions it takes.


Draco18s wrote:

Its a spell slot that the sorcerer does not have and cannot get. It may as well be a charge off a staff for all the difference it makes in the apples to apples comparison: the cleric has it the sorcerer does not.

Is it a consumable resource?
Yes.

But one class literally does not have that pool to draw on and has to use "standard" spell slots (the numerical count of which is effectively identical across the board*).

*Yes, sorcerers get "one more of each level" but "one more of each level" is hardly comparable to "six of the highest level."

I mean, they are comparable. Assuming you're willing to spend a single feat to get an additional Heal spell of your maximum level, at level 20, a Sorcerer will have an additional 9th, 8th... 1st over the cleric. That's a total of 45 spell levels. A cleric effectively gets a number of 10th level heals equal to their charisma modifier (losing the +1 because of the sorcerer feat that gives them the free 1 as well). Assuming a 20 Charisma, that's a total of 50 spell levels.

Clerics can do more out-and-out healing, but I personally like the versatility of Sorcerer to cast a heal for the amount needed, or to not have to prepare 3 levels of restoration each day and possibly waste those slots.

Then again, that's just me.

EDIT: Not considering the feat, then it's 60 vs 45. Yes, cleric still wins out, but it's not such a huge difference.

EDIT EDIT: There's also greater vital evolution... but I don't want to get too deep into feats that grant bonus spells.


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I think the fact that so many people prefer the sorcerer to the prepared options means something is being done right with it, even if other people don't care for it. Seems like folks gravitating to different classes is working as intended.


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I just feel Sorceror is alot more diverse and flexible as caster, even aside from Spontaneity VS Cleric.

Dangerous Sorcery makes Heal/Harm more viable for damage along with other damage spells, also with Overwhelming Energy... and Divine Evolution allows choice of Heal/Harm while Clerics have to Prep alternative, while Vital Evolution allows bonus slots for ANY spell you know (atop base advantage). Crossblooded free choice from any list allows optimal cherrypicking (atop offlist Granted spells) VS fixed Deity spells, and free Sorceror Focus regen is easier than Deity mandated activity and Anathema. Familiar allows MORE spells and Focus Regen and it and Widen Spell can serve as poor man's Reach (as well as latter enlarging effect). Counterspell is great anticaster and Reflect/Interweave Dispel help action economy as does Quicken and Metamagic Mastery.

Obviously Cleric has a bunch of great stuff for fighting Fiends and Undead (or allying with latter), augments to Font parameters like Direct Channel/Smite and effect like Cast Down as well as self-healing and certain other efficiencies (Swift Banishment, Heroic Recovery, Fast Channel) although latter (AoE) doesn't play to potential strenght VS Sorceror (1-target). Their ability to choose from multiple Domains is attractive, with Deity's Protection working similar to Blood Magic (but with less eligible trigger spells).

People love Bards but I also see them as very limited, hardly any reach outside of Occult remit or Will-targetting options, and not much to augment their normal spellcasting, although Melodius Spell is interesting as counter-counterspell, and their performances' scope allows basic casting to cover other effects within Occult scope. So it's not really that Abberant/Hag are at all weak in over-all picture, I think it's more a matter of people feeling Bard performance spam is effective enough that they don't worry about broader picture. But when allies are unable to capably follow thru, and Bard's limited capabilities can't fix that or sufficiently deal with enemy (lack of non-Will options), the lack of breadth becomes more apparent.

I'm not going to go into details, but I think Sorc/Wizard is fairly balanced, and also Sorc/Druid with closest similarity re: blaster Elemental/Storm builds and distinctions re: Companion/Wildshape VS Fey enchantment/illusion builds.

So I personally feel all these classes (and sub-classes re: Sorceror Traditions/Bloodliens) are balanced and viable within a party. Obviously everybody has their favorite builds they gravitate to, and certain approaches will be more appealing or more obvious to different people.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
I think the fact that so many people prefer the sorcerer to the prepared options means something is being done right with it, even if other people don't care for it. Seems like folks gravitating to different classes is working as intended.

Of course, some people (like me) don't choose to play sorcerers because they love the class, but because the alternative is Vancian casting. I hate being the face of the party, but because sorcerers are forced to have a high charisma, the rest of the party feels free to dump the stat. I would rather play an intelligence-based caster, but all the int-based casters are prepared casters, so I'm stuck with sorcerer.


Draco18s wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Draco18s wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
Not sure I understand the comparison that was done here... Sorcerer single target heal with angelic halo is better than cleric single target heal with Healing Hands.

The Sorcerer is expending a spell slot to do it. The Cleric isn't. The cleric is using their class feature free bonus extra on top of their spell slots double-plus-ultra Divine Font.

Um, just real quick; the Cleric actually is expending spell slots. Just Bonus spell slots.
Duh. I'm not an idiot. But that wasn't the point I was making.

So you chose to deliberately state information you knew was contrary to try and prove a point? I make no assumptions on your intelligence, but that sure wasn’t a smart thing to do.

Also, that Math example you cited is off. By a lot. It was a poorly written example that took an off the cuff comment, that was admittedly exaggerated, and taken to a seemingly obsessive point.

That example is flawed with bias; assumptions that were not clearly stated, nor should have been included; to try and prove a point that didn’t actually exist. Furthermore the statement has been repeated that Cleric is better at single target healing. Once the Cleric starts healing anyone other that the one with ‘Healer’s Blessing’ their effectiveness starts to drop; where as ‘Angelic Halo’ doesn’t have that issue. It does have a range limitation, which no one has denied, but the actual target doesn’t matter; meaning the effectiveness of a Divine Sorc has severely less effectiveness limitations than a Cleric. Specifically a Cloistered Cleric.

_____________________

Preparing a Staff CRB pg 592 wrote:

During your daily preparations, you can prepare a staff to add charges to it for free. When you do so, that staff gains a number of charges equal to the highest level of spell you’re able to cast. You don’t need to expend any spells to add charges in this way. No one can prepare more than one staff per day, nor can a staff be prepared by more than one person per day. If the charges aren’t used within 24 hours, they’re lost, and preparing the staff anew removes any charges previously stored in it. You can prepare a staff only if you have at least one of the staff’s spells on your spell list.

So a Divine Sorc that wants to be a Healer just needs to know the Heal Spell and grab a Staff of Healing. It comes with all the Condition Removal Spells that are needed, so you don’t need to clutter your list with mandatory support spells.


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TBH, the fact that we're even having this debate probably means Paizo got it right :).


2 things I like the most

1) being able to play a primal/divine/Arcane spellcaster with thr highest charisma, to combine any kind of magic with the best social skills.

2) bloodline spells ( and crossblooded evolution ) and nice efficiency in terms of focus points management.


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tivadar27 wrote:
TBH, the fact that we're even having this debate probably means Paizo got it right :).

To be honest I was starting to think that as well. The fact that it is actually a debate between cleric and divine sorcerer at all means it isn’t clear cut


Lanathar wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
TBH, the fact that we're even having this debate probably means Paizo got it right :).
To be honest I was starting to think that as well. The fact that it is actually a debate between cleric and divine sorcerer at all means it isn’t clear cut

Right now my build is actually going the Primal route for my Healer Sorcerer. They're not *the best* healer out there, but being able to first round fireball a large group of enemies then when the tank is low later in the battle, heal them up a large chunk is appealing to me :).

Question: what healing does Primal miss that Divine gets? I know Breath of Life, but that's a really last-ditch thing in this edition, and most of the others (restoration, cure disease/poison) are on the Primal list.


Lanathar wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
TBH, the fact that we're even having this debate probably means Paizo got it right :).
To be honest I was starting to think that as well. The fact that it is actually a debate between cleric and divine sorcerer at all means it isn’t clear cut

Oh sure. Cleric used to be a lump attached to Divine Font (because it was 3+) and that's been reigned in some (I probably prefer if it was 0+, min 1) and sorcerer still feels a little weak, only because its trying to be a chassis that can be juggled not just four ways (the four spell lists) but closer to six (because each spell list can be played a different way) and its spread its feat selection a little thin.

So, if I were to rank the two classes, I'd put Playtest Cleric at S, Release Cleric at A, Playtest Sorcerer at C, and Release Sorcerer at B.

And while that feels like they're miles apart, you have to remember that PF2 is a lot closer than PF1.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I have always loved the idea of the sorcerer class. 2E I personally feel really gets it to be a class that can on its own two legs finally.

I went with the Elemental bloodline and the primal spells are certainly a lot of fun to play with and give a good range of flexibility.

Human ancestry with a half-elf heritage gives a nice blend of additional ancestry feats.

I don't pay much attention to min/maxing my PCs. I go with what feels right in the choices offered. A well played PC understanding your chosen abilities is a bit like Sun Tzu, "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear results of a hundred battles"


tivadar27 wrote:
Question: what healing does Primal miss that Divine gets? I know Breath of Life, but that's a really last-ditch thing in this edition, and most of the others (restoration, cure disease/poison) are on the Primal list.

Remove Curse, Breath of Life, and Raise Dead.


Draco18s wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
Not sure I understand the comparison that was done here... Sorcerer single target heal with angelic halo is better than cleric single target heal with Healing Hands.

The Sorcerer is expending a spell slot to do it. The Cleric isn't. The cleric is using their class feature free bonus extra on top of their spell slots double-plus-ultra Divine Font.

The Math.

The 2 HP per target doesn't make up for the 1+CHA free casts.

DOn't play semantic games. The cleric gets that in exchange for -1 spell slot per spell level.


Staffan Johansson wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
Question: what healing does Primal miss that Divine gets? I know Breath of Life, but that's a really last-ditch thing in this edition, and most of the others (restoration, cure disease/poison) are on the Primal list.
Remove Curse, Breath of Life, and Raise Dead.

Thanks, so yeah... basically Primal casters are nearly as good healers as are Divine ones then. Good to know. Like the flexibility!

EDIT: To me, honestly, Remove Curse is probably the biggest hit on that list. As I said before, Breath of Life is kinda bad in this edition (wish you could use it as a reaction any time someone's dying value would increase). And Raise Dead is Uncommon and most commonly done as a ritual...


tivadar27 wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
Question: what healing does Primal miss that Divine gets? I know Breath of Life, but that's a really last-ditch thing in this edition, and most of the others (restoration, cure disease/poison) are on the Primal list.
Remove Curse, Breath of Life, and Raise Dead.

Thanks, so yeah... basically Primal casters are nearly as good healers as are Divine ones then. Good to know. Like the flexibility!

EDIT: To me, honestly, Remove Curse is probably the biggest hit on that list. As I said before, Breath of Life is kinda bad in this edition (wish you could use it as a reaction any time someone's dying value would increase). And Raise Dead is Uncommon and most commonly done as a ritual...

The difference is, Raise Dead has no chance of failure compared to the ritual (but has to be done within 3 days of death).


Salamileg wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
Question: what healing does Primal miss that Divine gets? I know Breath of Life, but that's a really last-ditch thing in this edition, and most of the others (restoration, cure disease/poison) are on the Primal list.
Remove Curse, Breath of Life, and Raise Dead.

Thanks, so yeah... basically Primal casters are nearly as good healers as are Divine ones then. Good to know. Like the flexibility!

EDIT: To me, honestly, Remove Curse is probably the biggest hit on that list. As I said before, Breath of Life is kinda bad in this edition (wish you could use it as a reaction any time someone's dying value would increase). And Raise Dead is Uncommon and most commonly done as a ritual...

The difference is, Raise Dead has no chance of failure compared to the ritual (but has to be done within 3 days of death).

It is more expensive though. But that Resurrection DC is haaaard if you're bringing back a character of your own level. And if you fail it you lose your diamonds. So Raise Dead is much more reliable.


Captain Morgan wrote:
It is more expensive though. But that Resurrection DC is haaaard if you're bringing back a character of your own level. And if you fail it you lose your diamonds. So Raise Dead is much more reliable.

High-level resurrection also requires that you find high-level people willing to assist. If a 20th level party loses a member and need to Resurrect them, they need to find 16 assistants of at least 10th level. Assume that two of them are part of the party, but that's still 14 NPCs you need to bring in.

And then you need to succeed on a DC 45 Religion check, as well as a pair of DC 40 Medicine and Society checks. When completely maxed out, you'd have something like (level 20 + legendary 8 + Wis 7 + item 3) +38. For the secondary checks, the participants are a little less likely to be completely specialized, so more like +26 to 30 - and if one of them fails, that's -4 to the primary caster's check. And that's if the party members in question (who are also 20th level) get to do those - Pharasma forbid you'd need an NPC on those...

But that comes back to my old complaint that skill DCs go up too fast with level.


Fair to all the statements regarding Resurrection and Raise Dead above. Raise Dead does seem like the better route (if you can get access to it...). That being said, I think it's fair to say that Primal casters are as good as Divine casters with respects to proactive solutions to people dying (minus Remove Curse). Interesting that so many of the healing spells can be done with two of the magical traditions.

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