INT Personal Upgrade and Skills?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 54 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does a personal upgrade to INT provide another skill rank? What about another language?


Theconiel wrote:
Does a personal upgrade to INT provide another skill rank? What about another language?

Skill ranks are retroactive, so if you gain Intelligence, you also gain skill ranks for each previous level.

Extra languages are only at character creation.

This is all explained in the character creation chapter.


Everything is retroactive, so you don't need to worry about when you got what.

Pathfinder used the exact same language

Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?

Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dracomicron wrote:
Theconiel wrote:
Does a personal upgrade to INT provide another skill rank? What about another language?

Skill ranks are retroactive, so if you gain Intelligence, you also gain skill ranks for each previous level.

Extra languages are only at character creation.

This is all explained in the character creation chapter.

I'm not sure if extra languages are only at character creation. It doesn't say that you don't retroactively increase them, so the general rule for increasing abilities should just apply. And that says:

CRB p. 26 wrote:

Note that ability score increases

are effective retroactively; when your character’s ability
score increases, it increases his total number of ability-based
statistics—things like Resolve Points, Stamina Points, or skill
ranks—as if he had the higher value at previous levels as well.

So you'd adjust the amount of languages you know as if had had that higher intelligence at earlier levels as well.

Liberty's Edge

I mean specifically when the character installs a device to upgrade intelligence. In Pathfinder, a headband of intelligence is geared to a specific skill.


Theconiel wrote:
I mean specifically when the character installs a device to upgrade intelligence. In Pathfinder, a headband of intelligence is geared to a specific skill.

Right, because it could come off, go on, be sundered lost stolen changed etc.

Which just caused a headache.

Starfinders stat boosts are just flat out your stat is that much higher. It affects EVERYTHING making it a lot simpler.


It gives you another skill rank per level to spend how you please.

... now if for some reason you replaced the int one with a different stat boosting augment, just really to annoy your GM, I'd guess you'd lose ranks of your choice = to your level?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think your GM would be justified in throwing things at you, if you tried to do that. Big, heavy, pointed things.


I don't think you're allowed to remove a Personal Upgrade entirely, anyway. The only way I know of to actually lose stat points permanently is if you use the Mnemonic Editor to re-select your last two levels worth of choices for a level divisible by 5.

But in that case you're also re-selecting a bunch of stat points, so...


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Everything is retroactive, so you don't need to worry about when you got what.

Pathfinder used the exact same language

Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?

Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).

Actually if your Int goes up during the game it does not give any bonus languages.

SF Core Rule book page 21 wrote:


Your character’s Intelligence modifier is factored into the following:

•The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game.

Also referenced here:
SF Core Rule book page 17 wrote:


Your character begins play speaking and reading Common, her racial
tongue (if any), and the language of her home world (if any). If she has a positive Intelligence modifier, she knows a number
of additional languages equal to that value.

Additionally languages are left out here:

SF Core Rule book page 26 wrote:

If an ability score increase results in a change to an ability modifier, don’t forget to adjust any statistics that rely on that modifier, such as attack bonuses, saving throws, total skill bonuses, Resolve Points, Stamina Points, and the DCs

of class features and spells.

Learning new languages is a function of culture.

SF Core Rule book page 139 wrote:

You are a student of the vast number of known cultures in the galaxy, and you have a deep and rich understanding of the undercurrents of cultures and language in general. Each time you take a rank in Culture, you learn to speak and read a new

language.

So Int gives languages you know at the start of the game and culture gives you additional languages you know at the start of the game plus the ability to learn new languages.

Edit: My formatting skills stink, sorry to all.


It absolutely gives you the bonus language.

Everything you're arguing was the argument for those exact same words meaning that you didn't get the bonus languages and that was wrong.

Nothing you're using as an argument leads directly to your conclusion

•The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game.

Which doesn't say that it DOESN"T apply to languages after. You can read it that way but it doesn't have to be read that way.

Quote:

Your character begins play speaking and reading Common, her racial

tongue (if any), and the language of her home world (if any). If she has a positive Intelligence modifier, she knows a number
of additional languages equal to that value.

This isn't an argument for your point at all.

Quote:

If an ability score increase results in a change to an ability modifier, don’t forget to adjust any statistics that rely on that modifier, such as attack bonuses, saving throws, total skill bonuses, Resolve Points, Stamina Points, and the DCs

of class features and spells.

It can be included in the other statistics.

Quote:
So Int gives languages you know at the start of the game and culture gives you additional languages you know at the start of the game

This isn't an argument at all. Some archetypes also give you bonus languages. Do they not work just because they're mentioned here? There's more than one way

Linguistics also added languages. That didn't stop int increases from also doing so.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


Stuff

Please state where in the rule book it says you get bonus languages with an increase in intelligence.

There are exactly 4 references to bonus languages. Bolding mine.

#1:

SF Core Rule book page 21 wrote:


Your character’s Intelligence modifier is factored into the following:

•The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game.

No where in the rules does it say you get an additional language after the start of the game with an increase of intelligence.

#2

SF Core Rule book page 40 wrote:
She can also choose a number of bonus languages equal to her Intelligence bonus from the lists below.

Bonus languages have already been defined on page 21 as being known at the start of the game.

Additionally this is also page 40.

SF Core Rule book page 40 wrote:


A character can learn the signed or tactile version of a language she knows, either as a bonus language or by putting a rank in the Culture skill (see page 139).

Again bonus language has been defined on page 21 as being known at the start of the game.

After the start of the game you use culture.

Final mention of bonus languages is through this envoy feat:

SF Core Rule book page 65 wrote:


Skilled Linguist (Ex; Culture)
You can speak and read a number of bonus languages equal
to your ranks in Culture. Additionally, when you attempt
a Culture check to decipher writing, you can forgo your
expertise die to attempt the check as a full action (rather
than the normal 1 minute) per approximately 250 words of
writing or fewer.

That's all of them. You can only get bonus languages at the start of the game or through the envoy feat.

The is no statement in the rule book that states an increase to intelligence gives a bonus language after the start of the game.

I know you believe it to work the same as Pathfinder but it does not. Here is the initial mention of bonus languages in Pathfinder.

PF Core Rule book page 14 wrote:


A character knows a number of additional bonus languages equal to his or her Intelligence modifier.

Notice the difference? The word start is missing.

This is yet another subtle difference in the rules between PFRPG and SFRPG.

You can argue all you want and I am sure you will. I am not changing, I am not doing it wrong and it is not a house rule.

If a FAQ comes along and says otherwise so be it, but until then.....


Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
Please state where in the rule book it says you get bonus languages with an increase in intelligence.

Please state where it does not.

You haven't quoted anything that SAYS this. You are quoting things where you can infer this. One of those inferences is reasonable. (start of the game)Most of them are not. But NONE say it.

If "Blue dragonkin, red dragonkin, and and green dragonkin breathe fire"
what breath weapon does a white dragonkin use? Not fire would be infered from them being off the list, but logically speaking it's not stated.

Quote:

Notice the difference? The word start is missing.

here You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:

The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game

Archives of nethys The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.

From my PDF

The number of bonus languages your character knows at
the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting
racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you
can still read and speak your racial languages unless your
Intelligence is lower than 3.

I don't know what source you're looking at (a later update incorporating the faq?) , but the "Start of the game" language is there in pathfinder, and in pathfinder the exact same words weren't MEANT to convey the idea that only your starting int mattered for languages.

Quote:
That's all of them. You can only get bonus languages at the start of the game or through the envoy feat.

It makes zero to argue that because something gives you a bonus language that ONLY that thing gives you bonus languages.

Radiation make you glow in the dark
Therefore chemicals don't make you glow in the dark.

Stewart Officer

Diplomatic Training (Ex) 2nd Level

You gain Culture and Diplomacy as class skills. For each of these skills that is already a class skill for you (or becomes a class skill) from a source other than this archetype, you learn to speak and read a new language.

Quote:

Note that ability score increases

are effective retroactively; when your character’s ability
score increases, it increases his total number of ability-based
statistics—things like Resolve Points, Stamina Points, or skill
ranks—as if he had the higher value at previous levels as well.

I see no reason to argue that the retroactive nature of the ability scores doesn't apply to bonus languages. The entire idea is to make your character easy to figure out statistics for and level up.


@BNW My source is the SF Core rule book. I gave you the exact 4 references to bonus languages.

Again please tell me where is says in SF Core rulebook that you get bonus languages due to intelligence after starting your character, other than taking the Envoy perk.

It does not and you cannot. At start means at start period. It is not any clearer than that.

Your Steward Officer does not state you get bonus languages.

It says your learn to speak and write a new language.

A bonus language is not learned in the course of a game they are what your character knows at the start of the game (with the envoy perk exception).

Learned languages are acquired during the game.

You have no way to prove your point and I have proven mine multiple times.

I am done here. Good night and good luck.

My players are here. I have a game to run.


Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
You have no way to prove your point and I have proven mine multiple times.

You have one piece of evidence and other arguments that simply do not follow. The other arguments don't offer evidence, much less proof.

The only good argument is the phrase at the start of the game. Which can reasonably infer your conclusion. (but absolutely doesn't prove it.) You apparently checked a source that didn't have it...but that demonstrates nothing when three sources said it's there. You can't simply pretend that the words inconvenient for your argument aren't there.

Ignoring that is not discussing in good faith.

A B C D E G ----->Not F makes conversational sense but isn't a given.

What did paizo SAY

Pathfinder: The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game

What did paizo MEAN

The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game... and if your int goes up later this goes up to.

Starfinder: The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game

You're arguing that paizo means something different with the exact. same. words. Telling me I'm misquoting something doesn't work when I have three different sources with the exact same words I remember being there.

Quote:

It does not and you cannot. At start means at start period. It is not any clearer than that.

That it determines the number at the start DOES NOT mean that it determines the number for all time. That doesn't necessarily follow.

Quote:

Your Steward Officer does not state you get bonus languages.

It says your learn to speak and write a new language.

The difference being?

Quote:
A bonus language is not learned in the course of a game they are what your character knows at the start of the game (with the envoy perk exception).

This is entirely arbitrary if not circular.

It carries absolutely zero weight that you make up a definition and then use that definition to prove your point.. doubly so when you have to write in a known exception to your definition.

Your sample size consists of languages gained by intelligence.. which are bonus languages and those are only at the start of the game because bonus languages are only known at the start of the gamne...entirely circular.

She can also choose a number of bonus languages equal to her Intelligence bonus from the lists below. " That this refers to languages gained at the start of the game because it refers to bonus languages... is also entirely circular.

We KNOW there are bonus languages you can gain through play. The envoy talent skilled culture. Your insistence that you can't gain other bonus languages through play is only backed by your assertion that you can't gain other bonus languages through play. Its an entirely circular non argument. Not proof.

Your ONLY evidence is your reading of the wording under intelligence and you completely ignored a dump truck of evidence that your reading may not be correct.


Break time as my players need to eat apparently...….sigh

I have given you the pages and the rules as written.

You have chosen to ignore them.

You have provided zero arguments to refute what is in the SF Core rulebook.

Again nowhere in the SF Core Rule does it say that when you increase your intelligence you gain an additional language.

It does say you get bonus languages equal to your intelligence modifier at the start of the game.

Period.

You have nothing BNG.

I am done here.


Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

I have given you the pages and the rules as written.

Your entire argument is one sentence of the rules as written. If you read that sentence wrong, you don't have an argument. None of your other arguments from "the raw" work without that sentence meaning what you say it means.

The sentence being a little misleading is on paizo, but not even being willing to admit that I didn't miss a word, refusing to address the pathfinder FAQ is entirely on you. Try to listen to what other people are saying and give it a fair shake rather than what you're doing here.


Could someone give a FNG a quick example if how raising int raises skill points for past levels?


Ysoki envoy with a 14 int hits level 5 and ups their int to 16

For turning level 5 they get

6 skill points from envoy
3 from theirint score
4 from levels 1-4 with their shiny new int score
______

13 skill points.


OK thanks wolf.


@BNW

Last time: I have pointed out to you.

You refuse, for what ever reason to listen.

The Pathfinder FAQ is not the Starfinder FAQ.

If they change it via Starfinder FAQ so be it.

I have listened to what other people have said.

You have not. From this thread:

Dracomicron wrote:


Extra languages are only at character creation.

And anther who at least, unlike you, that is vague and not spell out.

Ascalaphus wrote:


I'm not sure if extra languages are only at character creation. It doesn't say that you don't retroactively increase them, so the general rule for increasing abilities should just apply.

The statement is couched with the word should just and it not definitive with the word does.

But for now I am using the RAW.

You are house ruling it.

Enjoy your game.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't play Pathfinder 1E with any sort of regularity, and their FAQ is meaningless to me with regard to Starfinder. As we saw with the Ring of Fangs, some of it might apply, other stuff does not.

I'm just reading the rule, and the extra languages for Intelligence trigger at the "start of the game," which is a very specific time period.

I can see why someone might think that it is retroactive, but the general rule is that specific trumps general, and with the languages rule it specifically says it's only at character creation, and this SEEMS intentional to me, to encourage people to pick up ranks in Culture to increase languages known... there's already plenty of good reasons to increase Intelligence.

It really, really doesn't matter either way, but I desperately want words to mean things, and right now the words on the paper mean that it isn't retroactive.


Dracomicron wrote:
I don't play Pathfinder 1E with any sort of regularity, and their FAQ is meaningless to me with regard to Starfinder.

Prepare to be confused a lot, as starfinder inherited a lot of ambiguous wording from pathfinder. Which got some from 3.x (where skill ranks weren't retroactive)

Should they have gone through, looked at the wording and said -hey, people misread that the first time we wrote it, think we should take another whack at the wording?- but they didn't.

You are going to misread things. Sometimes its on you, sometimes its on them, but it's going to happen. There is no reason to insist on re inventing the wheel and insisting that your reading is right when we KNOW that the people that wrote those words used those exact. same. words for a meaning other than what you're seeing there.

Quote:
As we saw with the Ring of Fangs, some of it might apply, other stuff does not.

You refused to believe what armed meant. Despite multiple developer posts as well as the derivation from unarmed to armed.

You refused to believe how teeth worked.

Looking to pathfinder for evidence lead to the RIGHT conclusion in both of those cases. The only point I was wrong on was the archaic nature of the bite when used by a non natural weapon species, but pathfinder obviously wasn't any help with archaic because the archaic property isn't in pathfinder

So how on earth is the ring of fangs an example of -we SHOULD look at pathfinder- and -hey maybe I should listen the wolf is growly but usually seems to be onto something...-

Quote:
I'm just reading the rule, and the extra languages for Intelligence trigger at the "start of the game," which is a very specific time period.

It doesn't technically say what you're reading.

This statement is true "I have been to the USA, the Bahamas, france, and mauritania"

Question: Have I been to Canada?

It's also NOT a specific time period. What you're suggesting is that if a level 1 character starting out has a 16 int the bump to 18 they miss out on a language, but if the campaign starts at level 5 the character doesn't.

Quote:
It really, really doesn't matter either way, but I desperately want words to mean things, and right now the words on the paper mean that it isn't retroactive.

Right. You want WORDS to mean things. You want the entirety of the rules to be summed up in one word or sentence and.. it does NOT work that way.

English at its best isn't a computer program. Starfinder does not work when you try to grammar chainsaw a small piece of it. You have to look at the big picture.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The ruling on Ring of Fangs ended up being significantly more involved than just you being right about everything except Archaic. The nature of the effect ended up as a completely defined attack, when all it was before was some nebulous modifiers.

Quote:

This statement is true "I have been to the USA, the Bahamas, france, and mauritania"

Question: Have I been to Canada?

It's also NOT a specific time period. What you're suggesting is that if a level 1 character starting out has a 16 int the bump to 18 they miss out on a language, but if the campaign starts at level 5 the character doesn't.

Uh... no? The character is created at level 1 using the appropriate rules. It then progresses level by level until it hits the required level. If what you said were true and "at creation" applied to the whole of character building, your Instant Level 5 character could take Technomantic Dabbler, Connection Inkling, and Enhanced Resistance because, hey, my newborn 5th level character qualifies for all those feats.

"Character creation" begins at 1st level. It is a specific time period.

Listen, you might be right, but I should NOT have to get a degree in Pathfinder 1E before I understand Starfinder. It isn't wrong for me to use the language that they give until they clarify.


Dracomicron wrote:
The ruling on Ring of Fangs ended up being significantly more involved than just you being right about everything except Archaic.

What else was there?

Quote:
The nature of the effect ended up as a completely defined attack, when all it was before was some nebulous modifiers.

It was never nebulous. Teeth are a pretty concrete and straightforward thing. Starfinder has them defined as an add on to unarmed strikes. The rules are written to be somewhat simulationist and to apply common sense. When you try to read them like stereo instructions you're using the wrong reading toolset.

Quote:

This statement is true "I have been to the USA, the Bahamas, france, and mauritania"

Question: Have I been to Canada?

You kind of need to look at this one. If you're going to rely soley on your reading of one sentence that reading should be rock solid and you have a problem here.

Quote:
Uh... no? The character is created at level 1 using the appropriate rules.

So you're interpreting start of the game to be level 1. Why not just say level 1?

Quote:
Listen, you might be right, but I should NOT have to get a degree in Pathfinder 1E before I understand Starfinder. It isn't wrong for me to use the language that they give until they clarify.

There's nothing wrong with being wrong but there is something wrong with not examining your position when presented with evidence. Especially in a mixed play environment where you need to get everyone on the same page.

"These words mean this" is evidence. You're treating it like proof and it doesn't work that way. There can be an outright contradiction in the rules. "these other words mean the opposite" also happens (in this case the retroactive nature of the skill ups) where the rules seem to suggest one thing in one place and suggest something else in another. Its also possible that you get the wrong meaning from the words.

Weighing and sorting through different readings is how you get to a good ruling, not reiterating that one sentence means one thing.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


If you read that sentence wrong, you don't have an argument. None of your other arguments from "the raw" work without that sentence meaning what you say it means.

Whoa.... I missed this.

First off don't ever insult my intelligence again. I know how to read. I have been reading for 50+ years. I am quite good at it.

SF Core Rule book page 21 wrote:


Your character’s Intelligence modifier is factored into the following:

•The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game.

There is no way to read these two sentences wrong. None.

Start of the game is blindly obvious to most of us here.

And again nowhere does it definitively say that an increase in intelligence gives you additional bonus languages. Nowhere.

I have ask you several times to give be the page and reference.

You have not because you cannot.

Secondly don't ever accuse my of being closed minded. If I was I would come here for clarification, information and inspiration? No I would not. I would just run my game.

Despite overwhelming evidence that what I have said you stubbornly cling to shadow arguments and then point to Pathfinder to back you up.

It may do you a bit of good to remember that this is Starfinder and not Pathfinder.

If you are so convinced you are right, flag this for a FAQ. I see that you have not. Why?

Will they update the FAQ to match PF? I don't know. Maybe they will.

Then you will be in the right. Now your just dead wrong.


Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


If you read that sentence wrong, you don't have an argument. None of your other arguments from "the raw" work without that sentence meaning what you say it means.

Whoa.... I missed this.

First off don't ever insult my intelligence again. I know how to read. I have been reading for 50+ years. I am quite good at it.

You're not making a good argument that you never read sentences the wrong way by reading that one the wrong way

-You can read it that way but it doesn't have to be read that way.
-The sentence being a little misleading is on paizo
-The only good argument is the phrase at the start of the game. Which can reasonably infer your conclusion.

That you might not be reading the sentence correctly is NOT an insult to your intelligence it's accepting the reality that language is imprecise asa matter of the limits of writing, reading, and human(oid) experience.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So regarding languages:

CRB p. 26 wrote:

Note that ability score increases

are effective retroactively; when your character’s ability
score increases, it increases his total number of ability-based
statistics—things like Resolve Points, Stamina Points, or skill
ranks—as if he had the higher value at previous levels as well.

So if at level 5 my intelligence goes from 16 to 18, I recalculate all statistics as if intelligence had been 18 at previous levels as well.

So if I'd had intelligence 18 at level 1, I would have known one more language.

So raising my intelligence at level 5 retroactively adds a language.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

letthemfight.gif


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Must we? I'm so tired.


Dracomicron wrote:
Must we? I'm so tired.

We ARE renown for running our prey to exhaustion before striking.


Ascalaphus wrote:

So regarding languages:

CRB p. 26 wrote:

Note that ability score increases

are effective retroactively; when your character’s ability
score increases, it increases his total number of ability-based
statistics—things like Resolve Points, Stamina Points, or skill
ranks—as if he had the higher value at previous levels as well.

So if at level 5 my intelligence goes from 16 to 18, I recalculate all statistics as if intelligence had been 18 at previous levels as well.

So if I'd had intelligence 18 at level 1, I would have known one more language.

So raising my intelligence at level 5 retroactively adds a language.

No where does it say that you get an increase in languages.

That word language does not appear in your quoted text anywhere.

It says ability based statistics. Statistics are numbers. Resolve Points are a number, Stamina Points are a number, Skill Ranks are a number. A language is not statistic or a number. Sorry.

The only thing that is definitively stated with regard to bonus languages is (bolding mine):

SF Core Rule book page 21 wrote:


Your character’s Intelligence modifier is factored into the following:

•The number of bonus languages your character knows at the startof the game.

Nowhere in the SF CRB does it explicitly state that increasing intelligence get you an additional bonus language.

Again I challenge anyone to give me the page # where it says this.

If it is in there and I have missed it, please show me.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

You're not making a good argument that you never read sentences the wrong way by reading that one the wrong way

Again an insult to my ability to read by saying I am reading the wrong way. I am not.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


-You can read it that way but it doesn't have to be read that way.
-The sentence being a little misleading is on paizo
-The only good argument is the phrase at the start of the game. Which can reasonably infer your conclusion.

That sentence can only be read one way, there is really no way to read it another way. I infer nothing. It is crystal clear.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


That you might not be reading the sentence correctly is NOT an insult to your intelligence it's accepting the reality that language is imprecise asa matter of the limits of writing, reading, and human(oid) experience.

That is a very simple sentence that you keep saying that I am or maybe reading wrong, so yes it is an insult to my intelligence and ability to read.

Also you are in no position to tell me it is not. If I feel it is then it is. You can't tell me whether someone's statement insults me or not, just I can't tell you that.

Again, mark this FAQ and let Paizo clear this up or show me in the SF CRB where it explicitly says that an increase to intelligence leads to an additional bonus language.


Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
Again an insult to my ability to read by saying I am reading the wrong way. I am not.

I wrote the sentence you think is insulting your intelligence. I know that you are reading it the wrong way.

Even if you're going to go full death of the author, I have called your reading of "at the start of the game" a good argument, i have called it completely reasonable, and stated that the sentence was bad wording on paizo's part. I stated that you could reasonably get from that statement to your conclusion. Reading THAT as an insult to your intelligence is really. Really. Weird. Like , gnome underwear planning level weird.

I am calling you imperfect. Along with the me, the writers, the books, and english language. It's not an insult it's the realtiy (fantasy reality?) we have to deal with.


Its for NPCs, but languages are included as statistics under creating monsters.

https://www.starjammersrd.com/game-mastering/bestiary/creating-monsters-and -other-npcs/

Other Statistics

These statistics don’t appear on the array tables.

yadda yadda

Languages: An NPC that has the capacity for language knows its racial tongue, and it likely knows Common and the language of its home planet (if any). Particularly intelligent NPCs might know other languages as you deem appropriate.

definitely not the best evidence but every little bit helps.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
Again an insult to my ability to read by saying I am reading the wrong way. I am not.

I wrote the sentence you think is insulting your intelligence. I know that you are reading it the wrong way.

Even if you're going to go full death of the author, I have called your reading of "at the start of the game" a good argument, i have called it completely reasonable, and stated that the sentence was bad wording on paizo's part. I stated that you could reasonably get from that statement to your conclusion. Reading THAT as an insult to your intelligence is really. Really. Weird. Like , gnome underwear planning level weird.

I am calling you imperfect. Along with the me, the writers, the books, and english language. It's not an insult it's the realtiy (fantasy reality?) we have to deal with.

Nope, that's not the sentence I was referring to. Seeing that you have restated what I know I am seeing at least in a positive lightan move off this one.

All good.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its for NPCs, but languages are included as statistics under creating monsters.

These statistics don’t appear on the array tables.

yadda yadda

Languages: An NPC that has the capacity for language knows its racial tongue, and it likely knows Common and the language of its home planet (if any). Particularly intelligent NPCs might know other languages as you deem appropriate.

definitely not the best evidence but every little bit helps.

This actually support neither case. It is saying the INT score does not really matter and it up to the GM to assign additional languages.

So I can create a INT 18 xenophobe racial purist who refuses to learn other languages although is capable of having 4 bonus languages.

Or I can create an INT 16 intergalactic emissary whose whole focus is going to different alien worlds and introducing her species to those worlds. I deem she know 15 different bonus languages, as I the GM feel its appropriate, even though per the rules she should have only 3.

And this my friends may be the best solution.

Not all high INT individuals can speak multiple languages.

Example: Albert Einstein - German (Native), English (poor), French and Italian (minimally).

Certainly is would be consider at least an INT 18 NPC.

While not all lower INT individuals are limited to one language.

Poking around the internet a bit learning additional languages is as much cultural. Its seem an IQ in the 50's can learn to speak a second language.

In Holland almost everyone speaks Dutch and English fluently, many also speak French as a third language.

While as I hate to say it, but most Americans really only know (or will speak) English.

There are many more examples.

So I am thinking that maybe the character's background / backstory may be just as if not more important than raw intelligence.

I am thinking a house rule coming to my table.


Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
This actually support neither case. It is saying the INT score does not really matter and it up to the GM to assign additional languages.

Note that ability score increases

are effective retroactively; when your character’s ability
score increases, it increases his total number of ability-based
statistics—things like Resolve Points, Stamina Points, or skill
ranks—as if he had the higher value at previous levels as well.

... Which opens the question is the language one of those statistics? "things like" makes it clear that the list isn't all encompassing. On the other hand calling a language a statistic seems kind of weird.

It's less weird if other rules refer to languages as a statistic. The cited rule refers to languages as a statistic.

"at the start of the game" seems to imply that the bonus language is a one time deal.

"as if he had the higher value at previous levels as well" would include first level and you'd get a bonus language?

So how do those competing ideas work out? Whats the order of operations in the weird F(x) of rules?

When paizo had that same rules interaction in pathfinder the result was that you got the bonus language.

Unless paizo wanted to increase the persnicket level of a minor feature of a character as they leveled up I cannot see any reason why the rule interaction would work out differently in starfinder, especially when one of starfinders design paradigms has been to make it EASIER to make and level a character (since the ability crystals make things run a LOT smoother than the headbands)

A reading of a rule can be reasonable, rational, evidenced and still be wrong. The rule could be written in a vague or misleading fashion, or may even outright contradict another rule. Being able to perfectly extrapolate from one sentence requires a perfect ruleset perfectly explained. I doubt such a system is possible but I know starfinder isn't that system.

Quote:
I am thinking a house rule coming to my table.

The starfinder version is that humans from Absolom station or Vesk from vesk prime wind up speaking fewer languages. Most folks get Common species and homeworld but if your species and homeworld language is common thats all you get.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

@BNW

My last post was with respect to your post the wording for NPC bonus languages. This basically states the GM deems what he feels is appropriate.

This is how I am going to proceed going forward. It will be up to me the GM and the player at creation concept on how many bonus languages you get at the start. All additional languages will continue to be a function of culture, and or character perks only. Int score will have nothing to do with it.

So I now have changed from the RAW to house rule.

As for Starfinder being simplified from Pathfinder.

LOL!!! They are a mess and under supported by Paizo. They are actually more difficult.

In fact if there was a better D20 based space system out there I would use it.

As for the sentence. I have not read it wrong. Nothing you can say or do will change that. Nothing short of Lisa Stevens showing up at my doorstep with holding a placard stating "You're Wrong" will change that.

So please stop.

In fact I am invoking the Dave Mason rule here.

Dave Mason wrote:


So let's leave it alone 'cause we can't see eye to eye
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
There's only you and me and we just disagree
Ooh ooh ooh, oh oh oh


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
It says ability based statistics. Statistics are numbers. Resolve Points are a number, Stamina Points are a number, Skill Ranks are a number. A language is not statistic or a number. Sorry.

"A character begins play speaking and reading Common, her racial tongue (if any), and the language of her home planet (if any). She can also choose a number of bonus languages equal to her Intelligence bonus from the lists below."

I couldn't help myself.

Theconiel wrote:
What about another language?

Sure. One extra language every five levels or every personal upgrade hardly matters.


The Ragi wrote:
Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
It says ability based statistics. Statistics are numbers. Resolve Points are a number, Stamina Points are a number, Skill Ranks are a number. A language is not statistic or a number. Sorry.

"A character begins play speaking and reading Common, her racial tongue (if any), and the language of her home planet (if any). She can also choose a number of bonus languages equal to her Intelligence bonus from the lists below."

I couldn't help myself.

Theconiel wrote:
What about another language?
Sure. One extra language every five levels or every personal upgrade hardly matters.

Yeah, I deserve that one.


Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

So please stop.

If you don't like my posts, you can just not respond to them.

You can press the /0 symbol next to the thread to hide it

If you have firefox you can use grease monkey ignore and never see my posts again. (until firefox updates)

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Hawk Kriegsman wrote:
So please stop.

You're trying to get in the last word and then insist that everyone drop the issue. That usually doesn't work.


Sorry, let me give a full sentence, since it was misread due to its ambiguity.

So please stop trying to convince me.

As for the last word, no Ascalaphus, as long as you and BNW are around that won't happen.

I know that.

I await both your responses.

Sovereign Court

I'm good. I know I won't convince you, and you haven't really said anything that convinces me. But I've laid out my arguments so anyone reading the thread can make up their own mind. After that, the rest would just be repetitive :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ascalaphus wrote:
I'm good. I know I won't convince you, and you haven't really said anything that convinces me. But I've laid out my arguments so anyone reading the thread can make up their own mind. After that, the rest would just be repetitive :)

I wasn't asking you to stop trying to convince me.

If you go up a couple of posts you will see it was directed at BNW.

Really only BNW and I have been going round and round.

I understand you position.

Grand Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Here's my suggestion. Let's all FAQ Theconiel's question, and then move on to our holiday shopping. There's some Starfinder stuff on sale in the Black Friday sale for that special gamer in your life. (Even if that gamer is you!)

It's really easy to get stuck in a cycle where we keep repeat our arguments, and then get frustrated because we think other people aren't listening, and then we repeat them again. It becomes a vicious cycle that leads to bad feelings and doesn't accomplish much.

So let's agree to disagree until this gets officially settled.

Hmm

Sovereign Court

My reading is that the bonus languages are only at creation, not later. That’s how PF1 ran it and SF is heavily based upon that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ellias Aubec wrote:
My reading is that the bonus languages are only at creation, not later. That’s how PF1 ran it and SF is heavily based upon that.

PF 1 didn't run it that way.

Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?

Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).

Linky to the all official and everything FAQ

Dataphiles

Ya'll are really going to this length over whether players get a couple bonus languages or not...? Is it worth it? If you end up being right or wrong, does anything really change? Is this thread a representation of what you value? How you want to spend your time?

1 to 50 of 54 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Starfinder / Rules Questions / INT Personal Upgrade and Skills? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.