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The evolving guide to Modular Wizardry for Pathfinder 2nd Edition
It just occurred to me that I never actually made a thread for the release of my Wizard guide.
I imagine many of you will have already seen, messaged and complained to me about the contents on reddit or discord, but I thought it would be a good idea to open a thread here to help me catalogue things.
Ideas for inclusions, discussions, corrections, questions, thoughts, swear words and general meanness, throw it out here.
I would also like to generate some discussion on the more contentious aspects of the guide. That said, if a section of the guide already has one of those big red Contentious tags, please don't tell me you think its wrong. I already know!
EDIT: Also note that the guide is very much a Work in Progress.
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Please. Immediately. Search for every "bare" in your document. The word you are repeatedly trying to use and failing is "bear". The phrase is "bear with me", not "bare with me".
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Whelp, I've already blown an hour at work going through this.
Seriously,though, fantastic job. I usually hate class guides, but you're looking at the wizard from every angle and it shows. I pray your sanity holds out as more books get added into the fold.
Done!
Thank you! :)
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I really like this guide, good job! What are your thoughts on a wizard having decent Charisma to best use Demoralize to lower their foe's DCs?
Conceptually I like the idea. I have seen a pretty neat build based around being a Hobgoblin and taking the Rogue Dedication, with Dread Striker and Sneak Attacker, along with Agonizing Rebuke, utilizing the Dread Aura advanced school spell.
Put together, it looked like a pretty fun build that made a really good use of Demoralize that could lay on some surprising damage.
Outside of that...
Charisma doesn't do much for us and there are other ways to lower DC's that don't involve you shifting about the stat priority too much. To make sure your demoralize works more often than not you would need to invest a good percentage of your boosts into it, which means you will be loosing out on something else.
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I really like this guide, good job! What are your thoughts on a wizard having decent Charisma to best use Demoralize to lower their foe's DCs?
I think you'd be stretching yourself rather thin. You already want high Intelligence, and probably Constitution and Dexterity for survivability, and Wisdom for Perception, Will saves and Religion/Nature.
Intimidation is a good place for teamwork: develop tactics with your other players so that you delay your turn until after the bard who does the intimidating, and then hammer enemies' weakened saves.
Seriously, PF2 is designed to be even more of a teamwork game than PF1.
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An exception would be if you were taking high Charisma anyway for a Champion MCD, at which point you wouldn't need so much Dexterity anyway.
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I really like this guide, good job! What are your thoughts on a wizard having decent Charisma to best use Demoralize to lower their foe's DCs?I think you'd be stretching yourself rather thin. You already want high Intelligence, and probably Constitution and Dexterity for survivability, and Wisdom for Perception, Will saves and Religion/Nature.
Intimidation is a good place for teamwork: develop tactics with your other players so that you delay your turn until after the bard who does the intimidating, and then hammer enemies' weakened saves.
Seriously, PF2 is designed to be even more of a teamwork game than PF1.
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An exception would be if you were taking high Charisma anyway for a Champion MCD, at which point you wouldn't need so much Dexterity anyway.
Well, I play PFS exclusively, which changes the calculus somewhat. I can't rely on a bard, or any other character, to Demoralize for me because nobody builds their characters together. In fact, it's common for no character at the table to be even trained in any social skills. The nature of PFS is that if you want a party role filled, then do it yourself. If I invested in CHA, then I could serve as the party face and do all my own Demoralizing.
Speaking of PFS, it's my experience that enemies (which are usually animals or undead) rarely run past the martials to attack the spellcasters. So I wonder how necessary it is to keep Constitution and Dexterity high at the expense of Charisma
Trading DEX for CHA with a Champion MCD is a great, build-defining idea. The major problem for a CHA wizard is the 14 STR requirement, STR being the only real dump stat for a wizard IMO, which defeats the purpose of boosting CHA instead of DEX. The only way around this I can see is being a half-elf and taking Multitalented.
The Alchemy Dedication section was very helpful. I hadn't explored that option before or realized the excellent cost/benefit ratio that it has for a Wizard. To help me understand the options, I put together a few charts to see what would happen if a Wizard took the three essential feats at the earliest possible levels. Thought you might find them useful.
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The Alchemy Dedication section was very helpful. I hadn't explored that option before or realized the excellent cost/benefit ratio that it has for a Wizard. To help me understand the options, I put together a few charts to see what would happen if a Wizard took the three essential feats at the earliest possible levels. Thought you might find them useful.
Those look great! Would you mind if I directly incorporated them (with all due credit of course) into the guide? I love having stuff explicitly spelled out to help those unfamiliar with the rules.
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Feel free to use them however you'd like. :)
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Cascade Bearers Spellcasting: would you recommend to take it immediately once available, so level 10th, to delay it until level 16th, after taking Halcyon Spellcasting Initiate (10th)/Flexible Halcyon Spellcasting (12th)/Halcyon Spellcasting Adept (14th), or eventually at any point in between?
Hmm... Good question.
16th is a very natural place to take it, as its one of the few feat slots that we don't have ear marked.
Depending on build you might, might, be able to get away with taking it at 10th, but you probably won't feel you are getting too much benefit from it for a few levels.
As someone who LOVES the idea of an alchemist wizard, I was wondering if you had advice on specific combos. Atm, I can't really find a whole heck of a lot of synergy and neat plays, but I'll admit I'm a little newer to 2e wizards. I keep really wanting to yeet bombs with tk projectile, but I know I'm probs gonna be disappointed by how that actually plays mechanically
As someone who LOVES the idea of an alchemist wizard, I was wondering if you had advice on specific combos. Atm, I can't really find a whole heck of a lot of synergy and neat plays, but I'll admit I'm a little newer to 2e wizards. I keep really wanting to yeet bombs with tk projectile, but I know I'm probs gonna be disappointed by how that actually plays mechanically
You hurl a loose, unattended object that is within range and that has 1 Bulk or less at the target. Make a spell attack against the target. If you hit, you deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage—as appropriate for the object you hurled—equal to 1d6 plus your spellcasting ability modifier. No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage.
You bet. What you wanna do is get a familiar with fly and manipulate and make yourself the fantasy equivalent of a drone
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As someone who LOVES the idea of an alchemist wizard, I was wondering if you had advice on specific combos. Atm, I can't really find a whole heck of a lot of synergy and neat plays, but I'll admit I'm a little newer to 2e wizards. I keep really wanting to yeet bombs with tk projectile, but I know I'm probs gonna be disappointed by how that actually plays mechanically
As Nog64 said, magically yeeting bombs with TKP sadly it isn't additive.
That said, I've found the Alchemist has a whole bunch of handy features and instances which cover certain gaps in the Wizard. It's not that we as Wizards can't have spells that can cover these issues, its that I really don't want to have to use spells to cover situational issues or niche benefits.
Out the gate, we have healing. A daily pool of healing, outside of your parties healer, discrete and divisible, is just great. It takes survival pressure off the party as a whole and helps with your squish. Plus, you can use your familiar to ferry around healing to party members.
Next up, mutagens. Mutagens are handy situational buffs which I would hate to have to waste a spell slot on. Your spell slots are for changing the world, not for shoring up situational weaknesses.
- Things like Eagle Eye Elixir are great. An hour long item bonus to perception and ergo Initiative is something that my Wizard WANTS but I'm not willing to spend a spell slot to get it.
- Energy, Cognative, Juggernaut, these are all things we want, but not things worth the spell slots to get.
Bombs are actually something we probably get the least use of, given that their utility can largely be replaced with Cantrips.
... All except the Peshpine Grenade, that might be worth a go against other casters.
In any case, the Alchemist adds utility.
You're the steak, its the sizzle.
Thanks for the info! By any chance do you know if quicksilver boosts ranged spells attack rolls? It feels like a grey area since it says "ranged attacks" and not something like "ranged strikes"
I wish! Sadly a ranged attack and ranged spell attacks are two distinct game terms, so it won’t help in that regard sadly!
Actually that’s not quite accurate. The section that talks about Ranged Attacks talks about when you’re using a weapon specifically. Fighter’s Point Blank Shot specifies it only works with Ranged Weapons as well, rather than Ranged Attacks. There are a couple of instances of using Ranged Unarmed Attacks as well, which are specifically not included as weapons.
There’s also this section under Spell Attacks:
Some spells require you to succeed at a spell attack roll to affect the target. This is usually because they require you to precisely aim a ray or otherwise make an accurate attack. A spell attack roll is compared to the target’s AC. Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to attack rolls, including your multiple attack penalty, but not any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon or unarmed attacks. Spell attacks don’t deal any damage beyond what’s listed in the spell description.
Quicksilver doesn’t say Ranged Weapons specifically, which would mean it should include Thrown, Unarmed and even Spell Attacks that fit the criteria of being Ranged.
I wish! Sadly a ranged attack and ranged spell attacks are two distinct game terms, so it won’t help in that regard sadly!Actually that’s not quite accurate. The section that talks about Ranged Attacks talks about when you’re using a weapon specifically. Fighter’s Point Blank Shot specifies it only works with Ranged Weapons as well, rather than Ranged Attacks. There are a couple of instances of using Ranged Unarmed Attacks as well, which are specifically not included as weapons.
There’s also this section under Spell Attacks:
Some spells require you to succeed at a spell attack roll to affect the target. This is usually because they require you to precisely aim a ray or otherwise make an accurate attack. A spell attack roll is compared to the target’s AC. Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to attack rolls, including your multiple attack penalty, but not any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon or unarmed attacks. Spell attacks don’t deal any damage beyond what’s listed in the spell description.Quicksilver doesn’t say Ranged Weapons specifically, which would mean it should include Thrown, Unarmed and even Spell Attacks that fit the criteria of being Ranged.
I never realized that. It's crazy good!
Quicksilver + True Strike + Searing Light... Undeads and fiends will soil their pants!
There’s also this section under Spell Attacks:
On the other hand, the section on attack rolls reads:
there are three main types: melee attack rolls, ranged attack rolls, and spell attack rolls. Spell attack rolls work a little bit differently, so they are explained separately on the next page.
Which clearly separates Ranged Attacks and Spell Attacks into distinct categories.
Quicksilver mutagen suddenly turning into the biggest attack booster in the game as long as you're a spellcaster seems like a pretty solid example of the "too good to be true" clause in effect too.
There’s also this section under Spell Attacks:On the other hand, the section on attack rolls reads:
there are three main types: melee attack rolls, ranged attack rolls, and spell attack rolls. Spell attack rolls work a little bit differently, so they are explained separately on the next page.Which clearly separates Ranged Attacks and Spell Attacks into distinct categories.
Quicksilver mutagen suddenly turning into the biggest attack booster in the game as long as you're a spellcaster seems like a pretty solid example of the "too good to be true" clause in effect too.
That section is written more causally, they mean melee (weapon and unarmed) attack rolls, ranged (weapon and unarmed) attack rolls, and (melee and ranged) spell attack rolls.
Lots of spells make ranged (spell) attack rolls, so it applies as written, but a lot of people think that that's not intentional.
They should errata it if it isn't intended to apply to ranged spell attack rolls.
Spells are actually pretty ambiguous a the kind of attack rolls they require outside of spell attack. There probably needs to be an FAQ about how spell attack rolls interact with melee and ranged attack rolls. Right now some spells do specify ranged attack rolls and some do not. It is super weird if there are a small subset of spell attack roll spells that can get an item bonus and many more that cant. Is that an intentional part of game balance?
Spells are actually pretty ambiguous a the kind of attack rolls they require outside of spell attack. There probably needs to be an FAQ about how spell attack rolls interact with melee and ranged attack rolls. Right now some spells do specify ranged attack rolls and some do not. It is super weird if there are a small subset of spell attack roll spells that can get an item bonus and many more that cant. Is that an intentional part of game balance?
If they are ranged, then they make a ranged spell attack, judging from the text in produce flange
"Make a spell attack roll against your target's AC. This is normally a ranged attack, but you can also make a melee attack against a creature in your unarmed reach.
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I think they just forgot it.
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I started a new thread to discuss this Here because this issue is a pretty big one and could seriously derail this thread about Old_Man_Robot's guide.
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I’m a huge fan of crafting. It provides career long value and has several great feats that enhance that value.
Depending on how your GM rules certain feats, I would also recommend Athletics.
Acrobatics is also solid if you intend to Fly a lot.
Medicine is great if you think you and party might need a bit of help surviving the early levels!
Love the guide, but I think you have an oversight in the school comparisons - a specialist has one highest level spell slot more than a universalist, since they get a bonus spell slot and one Drain Bonded Item. I'm thinking this is an oversight since the table in cascade casting has both the specialist and the universalist with three 10th level slots, while the specialist should have four.
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Love the guide, but I think you have an oversight in the school comparisons - a specialist has one highest level spell slot more than a universalist, since they get a bonus spell slot and one Drain Bonded Item. I'm thinking this is an oversight since the table in cascade casting has both the specialist and the universalist with three 10th level slots, while the specialist should have four.
Good catch! When I wrote that section the jury was still out on if Specialists were intended to get an additional 10th level spell slot due to it being "Special". While this has yet to make it into an FAQ I can't now see a reason why it wouldn't.
I'll update that soon!
The section on Arcane Spellcasting early in the guide still references the component-action link, despite that not being a thing.
Great guide, though! :)
EDIT: Although I'd be interested to see how your opinion of Quickened Casting might change with more play. I too thought it was miserable at first blush, but the Bard in my campaign picked it up and honestly it has been absolutely clutch, to the extent of winning fights on the strength of it. Being able to, for example, drop Fear and then immediately follow it up with something to take advantage of the tanked saves, or just in general do that much more in a single turn, is huge.
My opinion on that feat, after seeing it in play, has gone from "it's way too nerfed" to "once per hour is the absolute biggest buff I would ever consider for this, and that only as a higher level follow up feat."
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Really nice guide but I noticed something that I think is mistake and it's due to the complexity of the pathfinder 2e rule set. On page 91, in reference to the cleric archetype you show the drain bonded action. Unfortunately drain bonded item can only be used with wizard spells because it has the Arcane and Wizard Traits. A trait means it can only be applied to elements of those types.
There was a lot of early debate over this very issue, as it seems intuitive to think so, however the rules contain no verbiage to this effect. While Drain Bonded Item contains those traits, it makes no requirements or distinctions on its use when taken against spells.
It's been sent for an errata query, but so far it hasn't made it on the list. The section is marked as contentious though for this reason.
