Shock and Flame Fusions and Plasma Weapons


Rules Questions


Plasma weapons do both electrical and fire damage. In the core rule book they are the only weapons that deal two types of damage. Both the Shock and Flaming fusions refer to placing that fusion on a weapon with two types of damage, but also note the fusion can't be placed on a weapon that already deals that type of damage.

It seems obvious there would be no point in placing such a fusion on a weapon that already did only that type of energy damage. However there would be a possible benefit in enabling a plasma weapon to produce all fire or all electrical damage by using such a fusion.

Is the reference in the Shock and Flaming fusion description to weapons with two types of damage irrelevant given there is only one type of weapon (plasma) that does such?

Or should the energy fusion text clarify that they can't be placed on weapons that only deal that type of damage (single, not plural)?

Note Herolab Online will not allow a Shock Fusion to be added to a plasma weapon, but it will allow a Shock Fusion Seal to be added to a plasma weapon at which point you can set the fusion to override the fire type of damage.

I'm guessing the energy fusion text just got copied from one version to another and perhaps the situation above was not considered. Though I am curious as to what the point of forbidding placing the fusion on a weapon that deals the same energy type is? That seems pointless, except in the case of plasma weapons.

Is Herolab Online in error or does the energy fusion text just need some clarification?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Plasma weapons are not the only weapons that deal two types of damage, even considering CRB only.

Leaving aside future-proofing, the CRB includes weapons that deal:
B+F
B+So
E+F
A+P
F+P

I wouldn't make any assumptions about energy type fusions not having the stated restrictions based solely on plasma.


Interesting thought. Let's dispense with the premise first:

The Armory has weapons that are C&P, B&F, F&S, and that's just scanning the first few pages.

Second, you cannot use Herolab as an authoritative source of what the rules do or do not allow. Just because a third party coded a tool a certain way doesn't make it official.

So I see no conflict and the rules as written seem clear - you can't add a shock fusion to a plasma weapon.


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"The fusion can't be placed on a weapon that already deals that type of damage." I don't think this can be clearer, but that could be just me.

Does it deal X damage?
Yes > Can't add.
No > Can add.


HammerJack wrote:

Plasma weapons are not the only weapons that deal two types of damage, even considering CRB only.

Leaving aside future-proofing, the CRB includes weapons that deal:
B+F
B+So
E+F
A+P
F+P

I wouldn't make any assumptions about energy type fusions not having the stated restrictions based solely on plasma.

A fair point HammerJack. I didn't consider the kinetic types of damage and was looking at energy types only given I was referring to energy typed fusions. To clarify, in the CRB only the plasma weapons deal two types of 'energy' damage. The rest all seem to be associated with kinetic damage types.


Wingblaze wrote:

Interesting thought. Let's dispense with the premise first:

The Armory has weapons that are C&P, B&F, F&S, and that's just scanning the first few pages.

Second, you cannot use Herolab as an authoritative source of what the rules do or do not allow. Just because a third party coded a tool a certain way doesn't make it official.

So I see no conflict and the rules as written seem clear - you can't add a shock fusion to a plasma weapon.

didici vero certae dispensator

I also believe it is also fair to say these forums are not an authoritative source of what the rules do or do not allow, just because someone make assertive pronouncements doesn't make it official. :)


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

"The fusion can't be placed on a weapon that already deals that type of damage." I don't think this can be clearer, but that could be just me.

Does it deal X damage?
Yes > Can't add.
No > Can add.

It's probably you.


So given the energy fusions were INTENDED to limit placement to weapons of differing energy type (as was so kindly suggested), my question is why?

It seems pointless to add an energy fusion to weapon that already does that single type of energy. Does anyone disagree with that?

Is being able to convert a duel damage type weapon to all one energy type too powerful?

I'm just curious folks. Not trying to start a revolution.


Given how energy resist and dual damage types work in this game, being able to modify the types of damage your gun puts out on the fly is an incredible advantage.

The relative power level of being able to do this of course depends heavily on the enemy and your weapon, but given that the fusions that do this are relatively high level seems to show that Paizo believes its a pretty serious advantage.


There's another thing to consider, as food for thought in the "what was the design intent" category.

Fusions... yeah... they kind of suck. Both in utility and in their rules and construction. Fusions and fusions seals are confusing, have odd cost structures, and are a bit of an oddity. Initially I thought "ah the Starfinder version of magic weapons - this is important!" and I found out I was wrong. We've largely ignored them except for ones we found in our game.

Now this is all just my opinion of course. But if you are of the mindset that fusions were somewhat poorly designed, then it's pretty easy to ignore any oddities in terms of elemental fusions. If you disagree with that opinion, then that's fine too. But I can't explain the thought behind elemental fusions; it's just one of a number of things that don't make sense to me in the "fusion" space.


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I found fusions to be about the same as everything else in Starfinder. Some are amazing, almost must-haves. Others are either good in certain situations or for particular builds. And then there are some that are either a bad joke, space fillers, or written by people who don't care if I like their game or not.


Huh... I wonder how a weapon that already deals two types of damage deals with Mechanic's Prototype Weapon's level 15 ability Dual Chambers, which lets you add a type of damage (Yes, a TYPE of damage) to the prototype weapon that the base weapon does not normally deal. So far I'm thinking adding sonic to a laser weapon. No Idea if it will be effective.

Sovereign Court

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There's quite a few good fusions, but not the ones Paizo seems to have had in mind. They go nuts over crit effect fusions while most of us are enjoying our Called, Glamered, Opportunistic and Holy fusions...


Ascalaphus wrote:
There's quite a few good fusions, but not the ones Paizo seems to have had in mind. They go nuts over crit effect fusions while most of us are enjoying our Called, Glamered, Opportunistic and Holy fusions...

EXACTLY this.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yeah... though there is the one edge case where critical effect fusions can become a really good buy, when they're combined with a solar crystal and a solar overload conduit.

Sovereign Court

HammerJack wrote:
Yeah... though there is the one edge case where critical effect fusions can become a really good buy, when they're combined with a solar crystal and a solar overload conduit.

Oooh I didn't know about that. Takes a lot to set up though, but interesting that they're going into this design space.


Pantshandshake wrote:

Given how energy resist and dual damage types work in this game, being able to modify the types of damage your gun puts out on the fly is an incredible advantage.

The relative power level of being able to do this of course depends heavily on the enemy and your weapon, but given that the fusions that do this are relatively high level seems to show that Paizo believes its a pretty serious advantage.

I agree being able to modify the damage type on the fly is powerful in order to overcome DR/Energy Resistance, however it is still a fairly random advantage given the fusion only provides one energy type option.

A PC might commonly carry more than one weapon with differing damage types for just that reason. Sharp, blunt, fire, cold, etc. Which one is needed? Probably the one you don't have. :(

From my perspective it seems that being able to convert a duel damage type weapon to all one damage type is no greater advantage than happening to have damage type needed on a single damage type weapon.


Ascalaphus wrote:
There's quite a few good fusions, but not the ones Paizo seems to have had in mind. They go nuts over crit effect fusions while most of us are enjoying our Called, Glamered, Opportunistic and Holy fusions...

Agreed


Wingblaze wrote:

There's another thing to consider, as food for thought in the "what was the design intent" category.

Fusions... yeah... they kind of suck. Both in utility and in their rules and construction. Fusions and fusions seals are confusing, have odd cost structures, and are a bit of an oddity. Initially I thought "ah the Starfinder version of magic weapons - this is important!" and I found out I was wrong. We've largely ignored them except for ones we found in our game.

Now this is all just my opinion of course. But if you are of the mindset that fusions were somewhat poorly designed, then it's pretty easy to ignore any oddities in terms of elemental fusions. If you disagree with that opinion, then that's fine too. But I can't explain the thought behind elemental fusions; it's just one of a number of things that don't make sense to me in the "fusion" space.

I do recall 'in game' fusions turning out to be totally useless as there was not a valid weapon of the appropriate level available to put them on! Perhaps the writer assumed the fusions could be upgraded for a price?

OMG, the cost structure seems overly complicated and full of holes. For example, the CRB under Installing and Transferring Fusions states "Any character trained in Mysticism can transfer a fusion; this costs half as much as it would to initially purchase the fusion, using the level of the new weapon to determine the price." That seems to say one could purchase a Level 1 fusion, put it on a Tier 1 weapon, and then transfer it to a Tier 10 weapon for half the cost of a tier 10 fusion. That can't be right.


Yeah, all that you just said. It's not just that the benefits are (or are not) good. It's that the cost structure and complication makes them not worth using over the long haul in a game where you are likely switching weapons a lot.


A lot of those problems are variables that are more or less important depending on your character and your game, though.

I play in a homegame with a higher wealth ratio than SFS or an AP, and my character is a power armor soldier. So affording fusions is less problematic, and I'm always wielding at least 2 weapons, if not more.

So being able to have my laser cannon do half fire, half acid damage, or my cryo gun doing half cold, half electric, is a fairly big deal.

For other, more standard games? Yeah, you're pretty on track. The damage type fusions are some of the least important fusions out of the bunch.

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