Best ways to use Bond Conversation?


Advice


I have played only a handful of wizards that managed to get to the point where Bond Conversation was accessible, but on my universalists where I thought it'd be extremely strong I noticed it seems to be rather restricted, to the extent that I can't really utilize it and am considering other benefits for lvl 8 instead.

Any good examples would be warmly welcomed.

The Exchange

Welcome to the white room of theorycrafting. A place of magnificent esoteric builds so insanely dominant that they make other builds a waste of space <catch myself>>

Bond Conservation (playing that level wizard only a few times so bear in mind only a limited opinion) was useful to give another spell that may not have happened (which wasn't needed but felt cool) over an entire encounter arc. The idea of "down cascading" (or something like that) is fantastic theory but the relative advantage over other feats is very niche. The reality was that most of the encounters ended after 4-5 turns so the endless cascading rinse-and-repeat spell sequences never would fit.

Sorry - I have no good examples of how to get bond conservation to live up to the hype. I will relish reading how someone made it work in practice and not just in theory or hypotheticals


Keep cycling down to get True Strike. Use lots of spells that call for attack rolls. Enjoy your absurd crit chance.


Drain bonded item has to be your first action. So you can drain - cast spell level 3 or higher - bond conservation, next turn drain - true strike - high level attack spell. At 14 you can do this twice, second time starting at lower then max spell level.

The other route is to cascade the bond conservation as long as possible. This means every turn will be drain - cast spell - bond conservation, dropping two spell levels until you reach 2 or 1. This can be effective if it's a fight you don't have many slots left to spend in, since you likely won't use any slots the whole fight, just your drain bond daily. Disadvantage is that it will not do good damage and be primarily buff/debuff, and you have to have specific levels of low level spells which are prepared and already cast which are effective for the current situation.

I think option 1 is the more practical and consistent way to think about bond conservation. It may give less total value than cascading, but I think many times you'll find that the useful low level spells for your current situation have not been used yet or were not prepared at all. It's easy to have an expended true strike ready to recast.

Of course you can also use any other lower level spells you've already cast, but true strike is always a strong pick thanks to its ability to greatly enhance a higher level spell you follow up with.


I still have not actually ever gotten to high enough level to use it or see it used, but the observation that most combat encounters are only a few rounds is true in my experience so far, certainly. If that holds true at higher levels it would seem to make Bond Conservation tough to squeeze a lot out of. Still worthwhile though, probably.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Laran wrote:

Welcome to the white room of theorycrafting. A place of magnificent esoteric builds so insanely dominant that they make other builds a waste of space <catch myself>>

Bond Conservation (playing that level wizard only a few times so bear in mind only a limited opinion) was useful to give another spell that may not have happened (which wasn't needed but felt cool) over an entire encounter arc. The idea of "down cascading" (or something like that) is fantastic theory but the relative advantage over other feats is very niche. The reality was that most of the encounters ended after 4-5 turns so the endless cascading rinse-and-repeat spell sequences never would fit.

Sorry - I have no good examples of how to get bond conservation to live up to the hype. I will relish reading how someone made it work in practice and not just in theory or hypotheticals

Sadly the theoretical maximum that I listed in Principia Arcana are just that, theoretical maximums. Actual play scenarios have, so far, not given me the chance to ever really let rip.

But I can help!

To Cascade with Bond Conservation well, you actually need to be a bit more liberal in your spell use and you probably feel is safe, and you need to change how you think of your prepared spells.

Your highest level spell slot is your catalyst. It opens up every spell you've previous cast that day, but, you need to have actually cast them for it to benefit you. This means you can afford to sling spells more than ever.

It also means you can afford to prepare a broader selection of spells. Instead of preparing two instances of something, prepare it once and cascade down into additional uses.

Also, think of spell combos in 2 level bands. Casting a 5th level spell? what 3rd level spell couples with it to the best effect. Make lists and consider them as "load outs". Use the Spell Substitution Thesis to change your Load Out is you aren't confident in your preparation.

Basically, you just need to change how you think about your spell usage. Don't ration like you used to. Every expended slot is an opportunity. Every prepared spell can be cast multiple times off a single preparation. Think of spells that have a wide range of uses that can be applied in a wide range of situations (Get ready to fight in clouds and fog a lot until the spell list grows), duration's, pick battlefield control spells over blasting, utility spells over single buffs. True Strike is better off uses from a staff rather than your actual prepared slots.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
mrspaghetti wrote:
I still have not actually ever gotten to high enough level to use it or see it used, but the observation that most combat encounters are only a few rounds is true in my experience so far, certainly. If that holds true at higher levels it would seem to make Bond Conservation tough to squeeze a lot out of. Still worthwhile though, probably.

That's the thing, you don't need to be a torrent of spells every encounter. It's real power is that it dramatically expands your adventuring day and allows you to prepare a broader selection of spells without hampering yourself.

The Exchange

The question is always, what is the opportunity cost of taking bond conservation? Limited practical experience as opposed to the theorycrafting has shown so far that the promise of bond conservation down spelling and creating "load outs" is not living up to the hype. The two big reasons are that most combats are not huge long slug fests and that extension of the adventuring day is not defined by the wizard anymore

Now if you are soloing or 2 manning dungeons, then this approach's value changes

Consider whether taking Bond conservation is superior in practical terms over UV (choice of school focus spell and bigger focus pool) or Advance School Spell. In practical (vs theoretical) terms, you will probably get more value from either a bigger focus pool or the more powerful spell given the realities of encounters

An drag racer will go faster in a carefully controlled setting (the sprint) but will not beat a porsche on city streets

All this aside - I truly enjoyed reading about bond conservation and there are very useful elements in the analysis

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

At the moment, all I really have is my anecdotal experience from my actual play sessions.

Honestly, it feels incredibly liberating not to have to ration spells as thoroughly as I did 1st-7th. And it has changed how I prepare and plan my spells per day for, what I feel, is the better.

Other can decide the value for themselves of course, but Bond Conservation just makes my Wizard feel powerful.

The Exchange

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Ah - I can understand that outlook. I can also understand the joy of finding combinations that allow for cool things to happen. I look forward to reading more

(BTW as an aside, I do not know if you changed the stat increase levels in the document since the one I am reading still has 4 8 12 16 20)


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Laran wrote:
All this aside - I truly enjoyed reading about bond conservation and there are very useful elements in the analysis

Completely agree, nice analysis.

Laran wrote:


(BTW as an aside, I do not know if you changed the stat increase levels in the document since the one I am reading still has 4 8 12 16 20)

Can you explain this to me? I don't understand what you're referring to, or why you are mentioning it here.

The Exchange

mrspaghetti wrote:
Laran wrote:
All this aside - I truly enjoyed reading about bond conservation and there are very useful elements in the analysis

Completely agree, nice analysis.

Laran wrote:


(BTW as an aside, I do not know if you changed the stat increase levels in the document since the one I am reading still has 4 8 12 16 20)
Can you explain this to me? I don't understand what you're referring to, or why you are mentioning it here.

Old_Man_Robot created a guide "Principia Arcana" which appears to have popularized the Bond Conservation spell cascade idea (one of the few PF2 wizard guides so far). Since they referenced the guide, I was taking the opportunity to inquire about revisions since it has some interesting ideas (That is why I prefaced it as a by the way aside to indicate its incidental nature)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Laran wrote:


(BTW as an aside, I do not know if you changed the stat increase levels in the document since the one I am reading still has 4 8 12 16 20)

Oh wow. I had no idea I’d done that. I’ll correct that ASAP!

EDIT: Fixed!


Can't you get use out of Bond Conservation by preparing long-duration buff spells, and using it to pre-buff before fights?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Strill wrote:
Can't you get use out of Bond Conservation by preparing long-duration buff spells, and using it to pre-buff before fights?

100% You can.

I think the reason people are looking for greater optimization though is that it can do so much more than that.

Say, for example, you cast a 7th level Haste in a previous encounter. You can use BC to get that back and have it up on your party again. But, if you stop there, you lose out on a lot of additional spells. If you cast 7th level Haste in Round 1 instead, on your following turn you get an additional 5th level spell, the turn after that you get an additional 3rd, and then a 1st.

That's 4 spells off 1 BC activation, 3 of which would otherwise be wasted if you just stopped after Haste.

The Exchange

Remember that the 5th level spell and the 3rd level spell and then the first level spell ALL have to already been cast that day (bond conservation allows an additional casting of drain bond). So, the value of BC does not come into play until your first boss fight of the day. However, since you have multiple slots already, the power of BC does not shine until your third boss fight of the day. Really, how many boss fights in a row do people actually do without resting?

The best way I have come up to evaluate the power is to try and create an explicit list of spell sequences that you will run (a load out as was previously mentioned).

*edit*

The take this loadout and see how much of it will be likely to happen given the reality of 4-5 round encounters and what could you do otherwise (even something as simple as Distintegrate-truestrike which stops the cascade)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

This is part of reason I said you need to change your thinking when it comes to your spell slots.

Spell rationing actually hurts a BC build. You should be throwing out lower level spells like they are going out of style. Since your daily potential SPD goes way up if you expend a slot, it benefits you to use spells less sparingly than you otherwise would.

Its not about bosses now, but excuses!

The Exchange

I would be interested to see how this type of build functions with more experience. If it lives up to its promise, that would be awesome.

Unfortunately, I will probably have to rely on the forums for this information since there seems to be quite a lack of uptake for PF2 in my area and my friends areas (both large US metropolitan cities). There are only 1-2 small groups of which I am in one. Even PFS is primarily PF1 with no interest in switching until maybe end of 2020 year if ever ("let's wait until the new APG comes out")


Cough.
Conversation
vs
Conservation

;)


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Draco18s wrote:

Cough.

Conversation
vs
Conservation

;)

Well, this thread is a conversation about conservation, so...


Let's all bond!

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