Unchained Rogue Talents


Advice


Hi everyone!
I'm currently playing a TWF-focused Tiefling Rogue and the great exp count has DINGED for the first time, meaning I get to select my first Rogue Talent. We're using Unchained rules, but sticking to Core for most of the rest.

I am strongly considering going Minor Magic -> Major Magic -> Dispelling (once I'm at Advanced talents) for reasons of backstory (the guy really wanted to become a wizard). However, I'm still thinking about both the spells and the order.

So, first question: In a campaign of average difficulty, do you think there are any Rogue Talents that need to be snatched up ASAP before starting with the magic stuff?

Second question: What spells would you grab? Right now, I'm leaning towards Acid Splash for Minor Magic. I get surprise rounds reasonably often and it's a touch-based flatfooted attack that can reliably deliver Sneak Attack damage for a nice first strike without me having to juggle hands for a bow or something. Plus, as a Spell-like ability, it doesn't come with verbal or somatic components, so it should be reasonably possible to stay in stealth. Plus, it's nice to have an energy attack against stuff with DR. Plus, spitting acid at people is just awesome. But I guess utility spells like Mage Hand or Prestidigation would be nice as well.

Second question .5: Major Magic. "Major". Um, yeah... I'm thinking Shield - it's not like I'm going to grab an actual shield otherwise and +4 AC is nothing to sneeze at, especially when I could usually cast it pre-combat without taking an action and TWF tends to leave one stuck in melee. Do you see any better spells flying around?


What are your stats, feats, traits, and gear?


Str 10 / Dex 20 / Con 14 / Int 16 / Wis 12 / Cha 9
Feats: TWF, Weapon Finesse (from Rogue)
Traits: +2 Initiative, irrelevant
Gear: Rogue kit, studded leather, short sword, rapier (to be replaced by second short sword soon). Standard bargain bin level 1 stuff.


It's pretty expensive feat wise, but have you seen the magic trick, mage hand feat? Might be fun for a rogue.


ASAP?

Combat Trick into Twist Away. It will save your ass.

Staggered is so much better than dead.


Twist Away isn't a combat feat, you can't take it with Combat Trick.


If you do take Minor / Major Magic (which I wouldn't oppose) be sure to get Bookish Rogue later on. It removes any question of which spells to know.


Derklord wrote:
Twist Away isn't a combat feat, you can't take it with Combat Trick.

i just found i made illegal feat choices hahah


Teskariel wrote:
Str 10 / Dex 20 / Con 14 / Int 16 / Wis 12 / Cha 9

* It's a pity you're not a halfling, but I understand that not everyone can be one, you poor dears... ;-)

*I assume these are rolled stats, and not 33pt-buy.

* For a rogue, you're overinvested in INT and underinvested in CHA. (I'd swap those two stats, straight-up, in a heartbeat.)

Quote:

Feats: TWF, Weapon Finesse (from Rogue)

Traits: +2 Initiative, irrelevant
* No trait is "irrelevant", because they all have a type, and whatever type that is can only be taken once -- and Additional Traits is a thing that I sometimes take at 3rd.
Quote:
Gear: Rogue kit, studded leather, short sword, rapier (to be replaced by second short sword soon). Standard bargain bin level 1 stuff.

* Don't sweat your fortitude saves (alluded to by others in the thread) at 2nd-level. Multiclassing some levels of fighter or other d10 or d12 martial class never hurt a rogue, and it has benefits well beyond the obvious Fort+2 and a feat. For instance, gaining martial weapon proficiency, which unlocks viability of the fairly inexpensive (cracked version) Opalescent White Pyramid ioun-stone for whatever weapon is your heart's desire (in your TWF case, either waveblade or wakizashi).

* Minor/Major Magic: ...they have their fans, but I am not one. You have Use Magic Device on your class list, and, while I wouldn't expect you to have a haversack full of 750gp wands at 2nd level, by early mid-level, their cost drops into the chump-change category. The Dispelling advanced talent is OK, I guess, but you have Debilitating Injury and should already be royally messing anybody whom you've already hit. Certainly not to the point to sitting on two IMO stinker "tax talents" all the way until 10th.

~ ~ ~ ~

Here's a multiclass idea to explore:

01 uRogue1 Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting (retrained at 5th to FEATg)
02 uRogue2 [Talent:?]
03 Brawler1 [monk+close weapon proficiency][move=FEATc], FEATg
04 uRogue3 [dex>damage:waveblade]
05 Brawler2 [Flurry][FEATc], Accomplished Sneak Attacker
06 uRogue4 [Uncanny Dodge][Debilitating Injury][Talent:?]
07 Fighter1 or Slayer1 [BAB6-required feat #1?], [BAB6-required feat #2?]
08 uRogue5 or Slayer1/2 or (class)

-- The inclusion of Brawler halves your long-term weapon expenses because you only need one weapon to flurry (thereby freeing up a lot of money for cloaks, wands, etc), and the full-BAB martial level at 7th continues early-loading of good feats (i.e., as opposed to straight-class rogue, who has to wait until 9th to take a BAB6-required feat). You have 9 or 10 feats+talents by 7th, which is more than most straight-fighters.

Neat trick at 7th: use a first-round move action to activate your Brawler's Martial Flexibility ability to slot Improved Two Weapon Fighting for a minute (because a Brawler's flurry is a version of TWF by name, and so you meet ITWF prerequisites). -- For the rest of the encounter, you're entitled to four attacks using one weapon (a nicely upgraded +1/Keen waveblade (for which you won't need the ioun stone mentioned above) and you haven't spent feats on [i]either TWF (because you retrained that one at 5th) or ITWF.

Now that you don't need the opalescent ioun for waveblade, you can use it for Heavy Repeating Crossbow -- as you have otherwise have no capacity to deliver damage at long range. Have a couple masterworks in your haversack, with some spare loaded magazines.


Moving away from Advanced Rogue Talents is a bad idea.


@baggageboy
"Expensive" seems to be the right word for it... ouch. And TWF isn't exactly feat-cheap either.

@Secret Wizard
Twist Away does look quite interesting, one way or another. "Fortitude Save" is such an ugly word...

@Mudfoot
Okay, that feat looks awesome. Pity we don't have a Wizard with a spellbook to borrow (that would be so fun!), but I'm sure we'll stumble over a few in the course of our adventures. Did I mention I don't have enough feats?

@Slim Jim
Thank you for the expansive suggestions, but I was really mostly looking for answers to the questions I actually asked, not a completely retooled build.


depending on how much Rogueishnish you actually get up to, Illusion of Calm is a great choice; pick locks/pockets in plain sight and can let you get away with all sorts of shenanigans.


Teskariel wrote:
@Slim Jim, Thank you for the expansive suggestions, but I was really mostly looking for answers to the questions I actually asked, not a completely retooled build.

The one problem with straight-class uRogue (aside from BAB-loss and Fort/Will-save annoyances) is that its talent list leaves a lot to be desired. This is why rogue builds often segue into (or start as) Slayer, one of the more powerful martial hybrid classes that can also incorporate Ranger combat style feats, and Ninja Master Tricks at 10th+. --You can still call yourself a rogue.


For major magic I like the spell vanish. Being invisible has its uses as a rogue in and out of combat.


Slim Jim wrote:
Teskariel wrote:
@Slim Jim, Thank you for the expansive suggestions, but I was really mostly looking for answers to the questions I actually asked, not a completely retooled build.
The one problem with straight-class uRogue (aside from BAB-loss and Fort/Will-save annoyances) is that its talent list leaves a lot to be desired. This is why rogue builds often segue into (or start as) Slayer, one of the more powerful martial hybrid classes that can also incorporate Ranger combat style feats, and Ninja Master Tricks at 10th+. --You can still call yourself a rogue.

Improved Evasion, Double Debilitation, Hunter's Surprise, Opportunist, Quick Shot, Slippery Mind, Stalker Talent, Weapon Snatcher, Dispelling Strike, Crippling Strike, Blinding Strike, Petrifying Strike and Dance of the Disorienting Shadows.

Those are a ton of Advanced Talents that are AMAZING, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Rogue builds don't segue into anything unless they are bad builds. Debilitating Injury has massive returns for more levels into the class.


Do you want to be Stealthy and Sneak Attacky? Or are you going for Teamwork flanking, and if so, what's your party make-up?

What campaign are you doing and what's the highest level you think you'll be going to?


Secret Wizard wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
The one problem with straight-class uRogue (aside from BAB-loss and Fort/Will-save annoyances) is that its talent list leaves a lot to be desired. This is why rogue builds often segue into (or start as) Slayer, one of the more powerful martial hybrid classes that can also incorporate Ranger combat style feats, and Ninja Master Tricks at 10th+. --You can still call yourself a rogue.

Improved Evasion, Double Debilitation, Hunter's Surprise, Opportunist, Quick Shot, Slippery Mind, Stalker Talent, Weapon Snatcher, Dispelling Strike, Crippling Strike, Blinding Strike, Petrifying Strike and Dance of the Disorienting Shadows.

Those are a ton of Advanced Talents that are AMAZING, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm talking about the castrated non-advanced talent list that uRogues are stuck with until you get to the ATs at 10th -- or later, if you multiclass (as many rogues are wont to do).

I mean, compare the two to see all the good stuff chained rogues have access to that Paizo yoinked away from uRogue. (Most home games hand-wave the distinctions, but if you're enslaved to RAW as in PFS, then uRogues are shut out.)

I recall telling Derklord, I think, not too long ago that I'd play a chained rogue again in PFS without reservation, and I stand by it. I will pinch my pennies saving up for Agile blades, and be happy all the way enjoying great talents like Charmer, Escaping Stunt, Fortified Position, and Got Your Back*, none of which are on the uRogue talent list.

(*Amplify that bugger with Paired Opportunists and Fortuitous weaponry.)


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Slim Jim wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
The one problem with straight-class uRogue (aside from BAB-loss and Fort/Will-save annoyances) is that its talent list leaves a lot to be desired. This is why rogue builds often segue into (or start as) Slayer, one of the more powerful martial hybrid classes that can also incorporate Ranger combat style feats, and Ninja Master Tricks at 10th+. --You can still call yourself a rogue.

Improved Evasion, Double Debilitation, Hunter's Surprise, Opportunist, Quick Shot, Slippery Mind, Stalker Talent, Weapon Snatcher, Dispelling Strike, Crippling Strike, Blinding Strike, Petrifying Strike and Dance of the Disorienting Shadows.

Those are a ton of Advanced Talents that are AMAZING, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm talking about the castrated non-advanced talent list that uRogues are stuck with until you get to the ATs at 10th -- or later, if you multiclass (as many rogues are wont to do).

I mean, compare the two to see all the good stuff chained rogues have access to that Paizo yoinked away from uRogue. (Most home games hand-wave the distinctions, but if you're enslaved to RAW as in PFS, then uRogues are shut out.)

I recalling telling Derklord, I think, not too long ago that I'd play a chained rogue again in PFS without reservation, and I stand by it. I will pinch my pennies saving up for Agile blades, and be happy all the way enjoying great talents like Charmer, Escaping Stunt, Fortified Position, and Got Your Back*, none of which are on the uRogue talent list.

(*Amplify that bugger with Paired Opportunists and Fortuitous weaponry.)

ki pool and Offensive Defense are two I really miss.


Lelomenia wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
The one problem with straight-class uRogue (aside from BAB-loss and Fort/Will-save annoyances) is that its talent list leaves a lot to be desired. This is why rogue builds often segue into (or start as) Slayer, one of the more powerful martial hybrid classes that can also incorporate Ranger combat style feats, and Ninja Master Tricks at 10th+. --You can still call yourself a rogue.

Improved Evasion, Double Debilitation, Hunter's Surprise, Opportunist, Quick Shot, Slippery Mind, Stalker Talent, Weapon Snatcher, Dispelling Strike, Crippling Strike, Blinding Strike, Petrifying Strike and Dance of the Disorienting Shadows.

Those are a ton of Advanced Talents that are AMAZING, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm talking about the castrated non-advanced talent list that uRogues are stuck with until you get to the ATs at 10th -- or later, if you multiclass (as many rogues are wont to do).

I mean, compare the two to see all the good stuff chained rogues have access to that Paizo yoinked away from uRogue. (Most home games hand-wave the distinctions, but if you're enslaved to RAW as in PFS, then uRogues are shut out.)

I recalling telling Derklord, I think, not too long ago that I'd play a chained rogue again in PFS without reservation, and I stand by it. I will pinch my pennies saving up for Agile blades, and be happy all the way enjoying great talents like Charmer, Escaping Stunt, Fortified Position, and Got Your Back*, none of which are on the uRogue talent list.

(*Amplify that bugger with Paired Opportunists and Fortuitous weaponry.)

ki pool and Offensive Defense are two I really miss.

Debilitating Strike essentially replaces Offensive Defense, both of them together is unbalancing in my experience (currently playing a game of gestalted rogues and this is becoming an issue)


Slim Jim wrote:
I recall telling Derklord, I think, not too long ago that I'd play a chained rogue again in PFS without reservation, and I stand by it. I will pinch my pennies saving up for Agile blades, and be happy all the way enjoying great talents like Charmer, Escaping Stunt, Fortified Position, and Got Your Back*, none of which are on the uRogue talent list.

I think you did, or something like that, but not with examples, making this post here much more informative. Still I stand by my position, too, namely that cRogue is an NPC class.

One correction, though: Fortified Position is aviable to unRogue as well.

@yukongil: As it stacks with itself, Offensive Defense is potentially very unbalanced. It's only kept in check by the fact that hitting a bunch of sneak attacks in the same round with a cRogue in an encounter that you aren't steamrolling anyway probably only happens, like, twice in a campaign.

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