Kineticist is Constitution based spell-liked psychic caster with 3/4 BBA with scaling blast damage. Most of their infusions and utility wild talents or improve kinetic blasts or give elemental control abilies. This abilities make kineticist is intresting ranged class.
But there are some option, that can make him melee like character.
First option is some Infusions: kinetic fist, kinetic whip and kinetic blade. For normal kineticist its can be a good option, but you need have burn, to use it
Second option is archetypes. There are 3 archetypes, its a Elemental Annihilator, Kinetic Knight and Elemental Ascetic.
All of them gain melee infusion with costs 0 burn. For EA its a Devastating Infusion, for Kinetic Knight Kinetic blade, for Elemental Ascetic kinetic fist.
Devastating Infusion deal 1d8+Con damage,which you can use as ranged and melee strike and damage not scaling. But if you use it, your attack consider as full BBA
Kinetic Knight's kinetic blade damage is scaling like a normal blast(4d6 on 7th level)
Elemental Ascetic's kinetic fist deals 1d6 per every 3 damage dice(1d3+2d6 on 7th level)
Elemental Ascetic and Kinetic Knight cant take ranged wild talents.Elemental Annihilator dont gain utility wild talents and not many infusion. Instead of that he gain access some feats without prerequisites and bonus to blast damage and attacks
Elemental Ascetic replace elemental overflow for elemental flurry , that works like monk's flurry
Kinetic Knight dont changes elemental overflow, and Elemental Annihilator's elemental overflow aplies only to attacks
Elemental Annihilator's elemental defence dont changes
Elemental Ascetic gain Wis to AC instead of elemental defence
Kinetic Knight gain elemental defence on 4th level and works only if you wearing heavy armor and wielding an attuned shield
Also, instead of some infusions Elemental Ascetic gain Powerful Fist, Kinetic Knight gain Knight’s Resolve and Elemental Annihilator gain Flurry of Devastation
summing up i can say that Elemental Ascetic is the weakist melee kinetic, but can be better then monks for damage(changing d6 to d8 or d10).Kinetic Knight is most tanky , because he need wear armor and shield and have a high Con and can be not bad damage dealer.Elemental Annihilator in my opinion the best melee option for melee: his infusion attacks have full BBA, he gain cool feats(like TWF, weapon Spec and Two weapon Rend) and can with flurry and extended range can make elemental storm for enemies
What are you think about my discourse?
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The vanilla kineticist can be pretty good at melee, while also being a good switch hitter. You will want to focus on dexterity for defense and accuracy through weapon finesse. Constitution is important, but probably not as much as dexterity.
You will start fights by getting near melee but still outside reach range and blasting. And when enemies get into reach, you can use your kinetic blade to keep up the damage while holding the line. At low level, you can gather power to avoid the burn from kinetic blade. And at level 5, infusion specialization basically makes kinetic blade free. You will play around with this basic strategy as you level up and gain other blade infusions like kinetic whip.
The vanilla kineticist can be pretty good at melee, while also being a good switch hitter. You will want to focus on dexterity for defense and accuracy through weapon finesse. Constitution is important, but probably not as much as dexterity.
You will start fights by getting near melee but still outside reach range and blasting. And when enemies get into reach, you can use your kinetic blade to keep up the damage while holding the line. At low level, you can gather power to avoid the burn from kinetic blade. And at level 5, infusion specialization basically makes kinetic blade free. You will play around with this basic strategy as you level up and gain other blade infusions like kinetic whip.
Yes, I agree, classic kineticist can do good melee, but infusiona and utility talents in most cases give better options for range combat. Also you need some feats, to take for example medium armor Proficiency or power attack.
So what are you think about archetypes, about what speaked higher?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you focus on dexterity, you shouldn’t want heavier armor. Also you can use a masterwork or better buckler at no penalty, without needing a feat. And power attack really doesn’t scale well with the scaling blast damage. So really, the only feat investment you “need” is weapon finesse. But of course you’ll eventually want things like weapon focus and combat reflexes.
The annihilator has some advantages, but gives up so much. Its blasts don’t scale, so you might actually want power attack with it. I feel like the vanilla kineticist would even eventually out damage it.
The kinetic knight is fun for something different, but not really stronger than vanilla, while being very limited outside of melee.
And the ascetic is just kind of bad.
I find that the Elemental Ascetic is pretty good as a two level dip. You can make a fairly adequate Melee fighter with it and have tons of fun, but it will not be top tier, and that won't matter depending on how you play the game.
I currently have a Barbarian/Kineticist with that archetype, and I'm having a blast with it. Sure, the ability scores are MAD, but if you know the mechanics well enough and prepare for it, you can do it fairly well.
The vanilla kineticist can be pretty good at melee, while also being a good switch hitter. You will want to focus on dexterity for defense and accuracy through weapon finesse. Constitution is important, but probably not as much as dexterity.
You will start fights by getting near melee but still outside reach range and blasting. And when enemies get into reach, you can use your kinetic blade to keep up the damage while holding the line. At low level, you can gather power to avoid the burn from kinetic blade. And at level 5, infusion specialization basically makes kinetic blade free. You will play around with this basic strategy as you level up and gain other blade infusions like kinetic whip.
Yes, I agree, classic kineticist can do good melee, but infusiona and utility talents in most cases give better options for range combat. Also you need some feats, to take for example medium armor Proficiency or power attack.
So what are you think about archetypes, about what speaked higher?
Only thing I want to say here, is, through several threads, I think you are overvaluing each feat. Spending feats on armor feats is Good.
Armor is good if you want to go strength based, but if you go dexterity based, your dexterity is going to get fairly high fairly fast. Even if you start with something very modest like a 16, soon you will have bonuses from leveling, gear and elemental overflow, pushing you past the maximum dexterity bonus of even the light armors.
If you focus on dexterity, you shouldn’t want heavier armor. Also you can use a masterwork or better buckler at no penalty, without needing a feat. And power attack really doesn’t scale well with the scaling blast damage. So really, the only feat investment you “need” is weapon finesse. But of course you’ll eventually want things like weapon focus and combat reflexes.
The annihilator has some advantages, but gives up so much. Its blasts don’t scale, so you might actually want power attack with it. I feel like the vanilla kineticist would even eventually out damage it.
The kinetic knight is fun for something different, but not really stronger than vanilla, while being very limited outside of melee.
And the ascetic is just kind of bad.
I think you underestimate the Elemental Ahnihilator. You still have a scaling Blast, but you can you it only so single shots. Making Attack are fulll BBA and gain bonus feats instead utility talents in good trade. You can take weapon Specialization, that you cant take with clasic kineticist
Annihilator loses wild talents which is half the reason to play a kineticist. They can deliver a lot more attacks, but all those attacks do 1d8 + Con damage and target normal AC; if they use a normal kinetic blast they have little advantage over a normal kineticist with them, and some disadvantages. Compared to a fighter they have a lot less bonus feats, and a ranged kinetic blast which isn't their specialty.
I'm fairly sure that I could build a fighter or a normal kineticist which outdoes an elemental annihilator in the area that the latter specialises in, while still having a backup option as good as the elemental annihilator's second choice. Like the ascetic it's just not a good archetype as written.
Annihilator loses wild talents which is half the reason to play a kineticist.
I'm fairly sure that I could build a fighter or a normal kineticist which outdoes an elemental annihilator in the area that the latter specialises in, while still having a backup option as good as the elemental annihilator's second choice.
Yes, normal fighter and kineticist are better then ahnihilator, but i think its not bad alternative as kinetic/fighter concept, like hybrid class. You gain feats like fighter and some elemental stuff like kineticist
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I think I can make a character which outdamages the annihilator at both melee and at range, using either normal kineticist or a fighter. I'm not sure what space that leaves for the annihlilator.
What are you think about Kinetic Knight?
The Kinetic Knight is for when you want to make a strength based melee kineticist. If you want to make a dex-based kineticist, it works just fine but the melee option really isn't spammable until higher levels. A lot of the various melee archetypes for the Kineticist are "make it work from the first level."
Kinetic Knight
Pro: Gets most of the kinetic blade talents for free, and kinetic blade for zero burn.
Con: Can’t blast without using one of those talents. Can only reasonably choose substance infusions for infusions, since you are already stuck with your form infusions, and there aren’t enough good substance options. Also lose metakinesis, so no quickening.
Pro: Free and improved combat expertise.
Con: None.
Pro: Can use heavy armor and shields.
Con: Has to use heavy armor and a shield, just to get usual defenses. And using the shield requires taking a point of burn. Also doesn’t seem to work very well with water element.
Pro: Gets resolve, for some minor buffs.
Con: Lose 1 infusion, which is fine, since you get so many free ones with little to choose from anyway. Lose supercharge, which is ok since you won’t be gathering power much anyway.
Overall, it does armored melee kineticist well, but being tied down to only melee is pretty limiting.
The Kinetic Knight is for when you want to make a strength based melee kineticist. If you want to make a dex-based kineticist, it works just fine but the melee option really isn't spammable until higher levels. A lot of the various melee archetypes for the Kineticist are "make it work from the first level."
Kinetic Kinght make him like armored fighter, but with more hitpoints, Ac(elemental defence) and more damage from blade. Also with energy you can attack to touch AC
On my opinion and Knight and Ahnigilator gives good melee alternative. Normal kineticis abilities can be better, then archetype changes, but this changes are not so bad
Kinetic Knight is so stupidly better than Annihilator it's not even funny.
One of my favorite builds is to go Water, use Combat Expertise to qualify for the Moonlit Stalker feats, and use Shimmering Mirage to get concealment for free.
Kinetic Knight is so stupidly better than Annihilator it's not even funny.
Annihilator have more attacks and bonuses to attack
Kinetic knight does vastly more damage per attack, and has better defence, and has more options. Annihilator has the backup ranged option but if you're going KK you don't care about range.
Some archetypes are just not implemented well enough to be worth your time as written. Elemental annihilator/ascetic fall into this category.
Elemental annihilator/ascetic fall into this category.
Maybe, but Elemental annihilator not so as bad as elemental ascetic
Elemental annihilator/ascetic fall into this category.Maybe, but Elemental annihilator not so as bad as elemental ascetic
Annihilator is very very bad. If damage made characters good, Ninjas would be the best class.
But damage is a minuscule aspect.
There's a level beneath which it's difficult for me to care. Annihilator is worse than the unarchetyped kineticist at any role. It might have slightly higher melee damage, might not, but even considering dealing melee damage as a role you also have to consider mobility to get into/out of melee - which it's bad at. Ascetic is just badly made. Neither is worth your time.
Giving up Utility talents makes the annihilator a non-starter I feel. Kinetic knight can still get fun stuff like shimmering mirage, telekinetic maneuvers, various means of flight, telekinetic invisibility, etc.
Kinetic Knight need to wear a heavy aromor and shield. Thats means that very slow movement speed
Kinetic Knight need to wear a heavy aromor and shield. Thats means that very slow movement speed
It actually doesn't. I means you go from 30 feet speed to 20 feet speed. The difference isn't big at all, particularly given that you are going to be stuck in melee range anyway.
If enemies are further away, well:
a) 20 and 30 don't matter, both mean you need to charge to full attack.
b) You have Kinetic Whip for further reach, meaning speed isn't that important.
A lot of the things that seem really bad drawbacks in paper don't matter that much in actual games.
Kinetic Knight need to wear a heavy aromor and shield. Thats means that very slow movement speedb) You have Kinetic Whip for further reach, meaning speed isn't that important.
A lot of the things that seem really bad drawbacks in paper don't matter that much in actual games.
To attack with whip i need Dex or Str?
The Kinetic Knight also gets the Blade Rush infusion which lets you close 30' instantly.
To kinetic blade adds a Str or Con damage bonus?
Kinetic whip and kinetic blade use Str to attack by default, Dex with weapon finesse - which works for either, they're light weapons. They use the standard damage for a kinetic blast which includes Con, or Con mod/2 depending on whether it's physical or energy. The level-dependent part of the damage matters more.
Personally I find 30' speed more convenient than 20' but there's multiple ways around that.
18 Str, 12 dex and 18 Con for Kinetic knight i think is good
It may be more Str & Con than you need, especially if you're going for an energy blast first. Touch attacks can afford to have a lower attack bonus. You don't usually need 18s to start with and 2 18s is hard to start with without crippling yourself otherwise.
18 Str, 12 dex and 18 Con for Kinetic knight i think is good
If that’s an option, sure. But those stats seem unlikely for most games. If it comes down to it, you should probably prioritize strength over constitution. But the kinetic knight wants both of them pretty bad.
It may be more Str & Con than you need, especially if you're going for an energy blast first. Touch attacks can afford to have a lower attack bonus. You don't usually need 18s to start with and 2 18s is hard to start with without crippling yourself otherwise.
2 18s not at first level. its statistic middle levels
with 12 dex, heavy steel shield and Banded mail my AC is 20. Also water elemental defenca give extra +4. 24 AC is pretty cool i think
what infusions and wild talents can be usefull for kinetic knight?
On wild talents: if you're going for the water element first then kinetic healing is a good option. Secret Wizard suggested building around shimmering mirage & moonlight stalker feats. Water manipulator is spectacular when you can use it. There's a bunch of universal talents which are worth looking at.
On infusions: you're probably not going to use them a lot, full attacks will often be more useful than gather power + single attack. They're not that important to a kinetic knight.
what infusions and wild talents can be usefull for kinetic knight?
It really depends on your element. Once you choose your element, most of your infusions will be chosen for you, as most elements don’t get a lot of substance infusions. I think fire has the most options. The flight powers are tempting, because of the lowered movement speed.
But ultimately, there are just too many ways to build a kinetic knight. It’d be hard to give good advice without at least an elemental choice.
what infusions and wild talents can be usefull for kinetic knight?It really depends on your element. Once you choose your element, most of your infusions will be chosen for you, as most elements don’t get a lot of substance infusions. I think fire has the most options. The flight powers are tempting, because of the lowered movement speed.
But ultimately, there are just too many ways to build a kinetic knight. It’d be hard to give good advice without at least an elemental choice.
I want focuse on water(any second elenemend that help with damage )
On infusions: you're probably not going to use them a lot, full attacks will often be more useful than gather power + single attack. They're not that important to a kinetic knight.
You don’t get iterative attacks until level 8, so the gather power and single attack will be a lot of your career. And at level 8 you have infusion specialization 2, so combining a substance infusion with your kinetic blade will happen sometimes.
On infusions: you're probably not going to use them a lot, full attacks will often be more useful than gather power + single attack. They're not that important to a kinetic knight.You don’t get iterative attacks until level 8, so the gather power and single attack will be a lot of your career. And at level 8 you have infusion specialization 2, so combining a substance infusion with your kinetic blade will happen sometimes.
You tend to see haste spells coming out before that, characters usually have a party rather than existing in a vacuum. And with kinetic whip etc. there's going to be other calls on that infusion spec.
Kinetic knights often have trouble just spending all their infusions. They get the ones they most want for free as written and can't get any which affect areas or range. You can just about assume they have all the ones they're allowed to get.
I also have a question about some kineticist abilities. With gathering power i dont take damage from burn and i can use it?And attack and damage(overflow) from 2burn are stacks?
When you gather power you don't take some burn from your kinetic blasts. It doesn't help with wild talents.
I don't understand the second question.
When you gather power you don't take some burn from your kinetic blasts. It doesn't help with wild talents.
I don't understand the second question.
I mean with elemental overflow you gain bonus to attack and damage to blast when you gain burn. For example on 6 level i from elemental overflow and 3 burn i will have +3 to ataack and +6 to damage or +9 to attack and 18 to damage?
A level 6 kineticist with 3 burn gets
a bonus on her attack rolls with kinetic blasts equal to the total number of points of burn she currently has, to a maximum bonus of +1 for every 3 kineticist levels she possesses. She also receives a bonus on damage rolls with her kinetic blast equal to double the bonus on attack rolls.i.e. +2 attack and +4 damage. They also get
a +2 size bonus to two physical ability scores of her choice. She also gains a chance to ignore the effects of a critical hit or sneak attack equal to 5% × her current number of points of burn.
i.e. +2 to two ability scores and 15% chance of ignoring the extra damage from a crit or sneak attack against them.
I'm not sure how you're trying to double-dip there, but I'm sure it doesn't work.
A level 6 kineticist with 3 burn getsa bonus on her attack rolls with kinetic blasts equal to the total number of points of burn she currently has, to a maximum bonus of +1 for every 3 kineticist levels she possesses. She also receives a bonus on damage rolls with her kinetic blast equal to double the bonus on attack rolls.i.e. +2 attack and +4 damage. They also geta +2 size bonus to two physical ability scores of her choice. She also gains a chance to ignore the effects of a critical hit or sneak attack equal to 5% × her current number of points of burn.i.e. +2 to two ability scores and 15% chance of ignoring the extra damage from a crit or sneak attack against them.
I'm not sure how you're trying to double-dip there, but I'm sure it doesn't work.
i thinked this bonus stack for each burn. Now i see that im thinked wrong, thanks
What feats are good for kinetic knight?
Extra attacks are good for them; by the time they get kinetic whip (L5) they want combat reflexes. There's other means of getting extra attacks like tripping (see various feats), upsetting strike, some teamwork feats if you can get another member of the party to take them too.
Weapon focus and toughness aren't bad, but they are boring.
Mobile gathering is likely useful to them. Gather might could be useful with that occasionally.
Kinetic invocation might be worth it if you don't like the water element wild talents.
If you go with Secret Wizard's moonlight stalker idea that'll take up a few feats.
Extra attacks are good for them; by the time they get kinetic whip (L5) they want combat reflexes. There's other means of getting extra attacks like tripping (see various feats), upsetting strike, some teamwork feats if you can get another member of the party to take them too.
Weapon focus and toughness aren't bad, but they are boring.
Mobile gathering is likely useful to them. Gather might could be useful with that occasionally.
Kinetic invocation might be worth it if you don't like the water element wild talents.
If you go with Secret Wizard's moonlight stalker idea that'll take up a few feats.
Power attack maybe a good chose for damage?
No, you do enough damage per hit that the attack penalty makes it unhelpful.
Im not fun of teamwork feats. You and your teammete need spend 1 feat to little bonuses