why are things heaver in second edition then first or other games


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I think one easy solution for the "bulk isnt realistic enough" is to just add an extra stages of bulk. Making it scale similar to coins or an alternate kg.

* So 10 '-' is 1 'L'; 10 'L' is 1 'M' (medium); And, 10 'M' is 1 'H' (heavy).
* So if 1 'L' is 5-10 lbs, then 10 'L' is 50-100 lbs or 1 'M', and 10 'M' is then 500 to 1,000 lbs (0.5 to 1 ton) or 1 'H'.

Now you can say an average human is 2 'M' or 20 'L' (100 to 200 lbs) and still be accurate. This ofcourse still has the problem of how the bulk limit is calculated, but that's a different problem.

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Edit: Btw, well done with the weird business lingo. Didnt notice until I posted.


Gorbacz wrote:

This thread increasingly feels like a living throwback to the circa 2010 days when some folks genuinely believed that the more you insult people and the more you paint yourself as the biggest smartypants in the room (bonus points for the use of phrases "<something> fallacy", "ivory tower game design" and "you're no longer part of this conversation, dismissed") the higher are the chances that developers will send you a personalized letter thanking you for your insightful contributions and offering you credits in the next book.

I thought that the long line of forum gravestones would have taught any newcomers that there's only one way this ends but alas, it is indeed human to try and step into the same river twice.

You would think by now they would all realize I'm the biggest smartypants on the forums... one day they will learn...


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
You would think by now they would all realize I'm the biggest smartypants on the forums

Only if you actually wear them.


Ye be askin' a lot there lad'e

Dark Archive

Yeaaaaah, I definitely couldn't stand idea of tracking both cubic volume and weight of objects :P


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Volume and weight, what is this kindergarten? I need Rensellaer's Quotient of Ergonomics to account for inertial distortions from levered torque and unstable bodies. Besides, everybody knows weariness vulnerability increases on Fridays. And don't think eating those rations helps, digestive process actually worsens activity ease for up to two hours after consumption. Especially for swimming like your mother told you. Oh wait, did I mention specific gravity and buoyancy? That's a hoot.


Watery Soup wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
you never actually need to calculate the bulk of that sofa the PCs are hauling up the stairs- it's enough to say that carrying the sofa makes you encumbered until you put down the sofa.

How Much Can You Carry Society Scenario #1-01

Fed up with the constant death and destruction caused by artifacts at the Blakros Museum, the Absalom City Council has ordered the museum condemned and its owners evicted. Pursuant to ACC Code 2.7.18(e), the council must solicit competitive bids for the hauling and disposal of Non-Qualified Mixed-Magic Artifacts. Can the PCs estimate the aggregate Bulk of the NQMMAs in 10 business days or less?

Primary success criterion: NQMMA bid cost ratio of less than 1.5 gp per standard human workhour using floating disk, or less than 2.5 gp per standard human workhour without floating disk.

Secondary success criteria: one or more of the following:

- NQMMA bulk estimation error does not exceed 20% of values listed in Table 1.

- No more than 10% inclusion of Qualified Mixed Magic Artifacts in bid.

No joke, that sounds like a really fun sidequest to run/play.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Yeaaaaah, I definitely couldn't stand idea of tracking both cubic volume and weight of objects :P

It would be vastly preferable to this odd system of arbitrary values where nothing means anything and random stuff is way bulkier or less bulky than it should be.

Bulk alone is enough for a hard pass on this game as far as I'm concerned.

Dark Archive

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Bulk alone being hard pass sounds like exaggeration because if you want to ignore it, it is easy to ignore.

That said, I vastly prefer bulk myself so eh :p


Watery Soup wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
you never actually need to calculate the bulk of that sofa the PCs are hauling up the stairs- it's enough to say that carrying the sofa makes you encumbered until you put down the sofa.

How Much Can You Carry Society Scenario #1-01

Fed up with the constant death and destruction caused by artifacts at the Blakros Museum, the Absalom City Council has ordered the museum condemned and its owners evicted. Pursuant to ACC Code 2.7.18(e), the council must solicit competitive bids for the hauling and disposal of Non-Qualified Mixed-Magic Artifacts. Can the PCs estimate the aggregate Bulk of the NQMMAs in 10 business days or less?

Primary success criterion: NQMMA bid cost ratio of less than 1.5 gp per standard human workhour using floating disk, or less than 2.5 gp per standard human workhour without floating disk.

Secondary success criteria: one or more of the following:

- NQMMA bulk estimation error does not exceed 20% of values listed in Table 1.

- No more than 10% inclusion of Qualified Mixed Magic Artifacts in bid.

I would play this scenario.

Sovereign Court

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Quandary wrote:
Volume and weight, what is this kindergarten? I need Rensellaer's Quotient of Ergonomics to account for inertial distortions from levered torque and unstable bodies. Besides, everybody knows weariness vulnerability increases on Fridays. And don't think eating those rations helps, digestive process actually worsens activity ease for up to two hours after consumption. Especially for swimming like your mother told you. Oh wait, did I mention specific gravity and buoyancy? That's a hoot.

This is veering off into that Cryptonomicon chapter about the RPG where you count calories obtained from eating various foods.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Otagian wrote:
Watery Soup wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
you never actually need to calculate the bulk of that sofa the PCs are hauling up the stairs- it's enough to say that carrying the sofa makes you encumbered until you put down the sofa.

How Much Can You Carry Society Scenario #1-01

Fed up with the constant death and destruction caused by artifacts at the Blakros Museum, the Absalom City Council has ordered the museum condemned and its owners evicted. Pursuant to ACC Code 2.7.18(e), the council must solicit competitive bids for the hauling and disposal of Non-Qualified Mixed-Magic Artifacts. Can the PCs estimate the aggregate Bulk of the NQMMAs in 10 business days or less?

Primary success criterion: NQMMA bid cost ratio of less than 1.5 gp per standard human workhour using floating disk, or less than 2.5 gp per standard human workhour without floating disk.

Secondary success criteria: one or more of the following:

- NQMMA bulk estimation error does not exceed 20% of values listed in Table 1.

- No more than 10% inclusion of Qualified Mixed Magic Artifacts in bid.

I would play this scenario.

I would run this scenario solely to sit back and watch my players argue over spreadsheets for four hours while I work on my great american novel.


sherlock1701 wrote:
That way, everything would still be in logical, easy to use units, and the need to have something other than weight represented could have been met.

Nah, they'd probably be in pounds and ounces and cubic feet/inches and stuff.


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The PF2 rules are good in general, but bulk is just one case of many where Paizo blew it.

Characters can't carry enough. Sure, characters in PF1 could carry too much, so much so that we never tracked encumbrance, but now it just swung to the other extreme.

Tracking bulk is not fun, this is not why we play adventures. Which is probably why the pregens ignore it entirely. If each character could carry 2 bulk more, I think that would be enough.


Jason S wrote:
Which is probably why the pregens ignore it entirely.

The pregens had errors, which is why they have been/are going to be fixed.

Quote:
If each character could carry 2 bulk more, I think that would be enough.

You're in luck! The recent errata made it so that 2 bulk worth of items in a backpack don't count towards your total.


And now I have to wonder how many backpacks you can wear. I.e., can you wear a continuous series of backpacks, all with less than 2 total Bulk, and therefore all counting as their minimum? Furthermore, can I put any of them inside each other?


Well if you are cheesing it each backpack is 'L' Bulk when not on your back and they can carry 4 Bulk. The first 2 of which dont count towards the limit.

So I dont think you can put a backpack inside a backpack due to the wording. The backpack technically still has bulk, even if it's not counted towards the limit (you cant put 6 bulk inside).

However, you can can carry 11 backpacks filled with 2 bulk each to carry 22 bulk, but it would only count as 1.

Liberty's Edge

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Jason S wrote:
Which is probably why the pregens ignore it entirely.

This is actually not true. Or not any more anyway. With the errata they've released I believe all the pregens are now entirely legal in terms of Bulk (they adjusted waterskin bulk to always be L and changed spellbook/formula book Bulk as well as that of a set of Alchemist's Tools).

I'm certainly positive none are overburdened given how backpacks work per the errata (which is, in fact, to give two extra bulk in carrying capacity when worn).

So you're complaining about a problem that has, by basically any measure, been resolved.

Now, Bulk does have issues (notably 'how do I calculate how much this bookcase weighs' since the current guidelines say 5-10 lbs but also say an unconscious person is only 6 Bulk rather than the minimum of 20 you'd expect given that figure or the fact that a PC can carry a 12 Bulk unconscious horse unencumbered at Str 18), but not allowing PCs to carry enough stuff is not actually among them.

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