# Do Boots of Speed apply twice?

### Rules Discussion

Let's say you have Quick Climb, giving you a climb speed equal to your land speed, and you put on your Boots of Speed. The Boots of Speed give +5 movement speed to your land and climb speeds. Does that mean you get a total of +10 ft to your climb speed?

Breaking it down, you get a +5 foot land speed, except your land speed already defines your climb speed, so your climb speed goes up implicitly. When the boots of speed then give a +5 foot climb speed on top of that, your climb speed ends up 10 feet faster than when you started.

I see no reason why that would not be the case. Boots of speed specifically enhance any climb speed you may have. Having a climb speed equal to your move speed means you have a climb speed, which is then enhanced.

Granted this only happens once you have Legendary training in Atheletics anyway, so is late enough in a given campaign that I don't see it as a problem. +10 to a movement speed feels about right in that circumstance.

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I'd say no.

We should apply the effects in a consistent order.

For example:
I have 30-foot land speed.
I apply the boot effects: I now have 35-foot land speed.
Then I apply the Quick Climb effect. I gain a climb speed equal to my land speed: 35.
Since I've already applied the effect of the boots, I can't now do it again.

Or:
I have 30-foot land speed.
I apply the Quick Climb effect. I gain a climb speed equal to my land speed: 30.
Then I apply the boot effects: My land speed goes up to 35 and my climb speed goes up to 35. I cannot reapply the Quick Climb ability to get another 5 feet of climb speed because I already did that.

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Matthew Downie wrote:

I'd say no.

We should apply the effects in a consistent order.

For example:
I have 30-foot land speed.
I apply the boot effects: I now have 35-foot land speed.
Then I apply the Quick Climb effect. I gain a climb speed equal to my land speed: 35.
Since I've already applied the effect of the boots, I can't now do it again.

Or:
I have 30-foot land speed.
I apply the Quick Climb effect. I gain a climb speed equal to my land speed: 30.
Then I apply the boot effects: My land speed goes up to 35 and my climb speed goes up to 35. I cannot reapply the Quick Climb ability to get another 5 feet of climb speed because I already did that.

I agree with your reason, but I think the word you're looking for is "atomic", not "consistent" :)

You either apply the whole of the boots' effect, and then the whole of the Quick Climb feat; or the whole of the Quick Climb feat, and then the whole of the boots' effect. You can't conveniently split the boots' effect halfway down the sentence and do the feat in the middle. The boots' effect is atomic.

This depends on whether you think "climb speed equal to your land speed" is meant to stay constantly true, or is only referring to permanent alterations to your land speed.

For example, does longstrider increasing your Speed also increase the climb speed you get from Quick Climber? If yes, then these boots should give you the specific climb speed bonus on top of the increase to speed also resulting in increased climb speed because of the feat.

Because you have Climb Speed = Speed +5, rather than Climb Speed = 30 (or some other non-variable number) + 5

Matthew Downie wrote:

I'd say no.

We should apply the effects in a consistent order.

For example:
I have 30-foot land speed.
I apply the boot effects: I now have 35-foot land speed.
Then I apply the Quick Climb effect. I gain a climb speed equal to my land speed: 35.
Since I've already applied the effect of the boots, I can't now do it again.

But you haven't applied the boots' bonus to Climb speed. You've applied the effect of your Quick Climber feat. Your climb speed has not yet received its item bonus.

Strill wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

I'd say no.

We should apply the effects in a consistent order.

For example:
I have 30-foot land speed.
I apply the boot effects: I now have 35-foot land speed.
Then I apply the Quick Climb effect. I gain a climb speed equal to my land speed: 35.
Since I've already applied the effect of the boots, I can't now do it again.

But you haven't applied the boots' bonus to Climb speed. You've applied the effect of your Quick Climber feat. Your climb speed has not yet received its item bonus.

I agree with @Matthew Downie on this one.

There is no reason you couldn't gain an item bonus from the boots of speed to both stats at the same time. The piece I feel others are missing is that the climb speed is derived from the characters move speed, which is altered by the boots. When you gain that climb speed, you now have an unaltered climb speed, derived from your move speed that the boots can then alter with the second part of its buff. You don't give up your move speed, so the boots are still buffing that. And if you had a swim speed they would be buffing that as well.

There is no limitation in the book or the description of the boots that stop that climb speed from being further buffed by boots of speed.

beowulf99 wrote:

There is no reason you couldn't gain an item bonus from the boots of speed to both stats at the same time. The piece I feel others are missing is that the climb speed is derived from the characters move speed, which is altered by the boots. When you gain that climb speed, you now have an unaltered climb speed, derived from your move speed that the boots can then alter with the second part of its buff. You don't give up your move speed, so the boots are still buffing that. And if you had a swim speed they would be buffing that as well.

There is no limitation in the book or the description of the boots that stop that climb speed from being further buffed by boots of speed.

I understand what you are saying, I just think your interpretation here is too good to be true.

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I agree that as written it seems like your climb speed would double dip on this bonus.

However, I wouldn't play it like this if I had such a set up because it would result, all things being equal, with a speed 25 character having speed 30 and climb 35. For an item that is called boots of speed and not boots of climbing, that makes no sense to me.

Eh, again as I said in my first post, this is only doable with legendary athletics. And you are ignoring that there are 2 effects helping the climb speed, a magical item and a feat; quick climb.

Boots of speed also work with aquatic animals to enhance their swim speed right? So why not their climb speed? The item has been flavored to not be specific to things that walk in land.

A character with quick climb is quick at climbing. Throw some boots of speed on him and he's now faster at climbing.

I would say the boots only give a +5 to your speed. I would rule that you need to apply all of the items or feats at the same time, and the boots are written in a way to make sure that you still get the +5 climb and swim speed.

There are three ways to apply these. The first two give the same answer, and the third seems like a stretch and break in how things are usually done.
1) Feat first, then items
2) Item first then feat
3) half item ability, then feat, then other half item ability.

1) applying feat first you get a climb speed equal to your move speed, then apply item and get climb = base move +5.
2) Apply item first. You get +5 to move speed, no bonus to climb speed (as you don't have one), then climb = move speed. net effect: climb = base move +5.
3) apply ability to +5 move, then apply feat to give climb speed, then go back and reapply boots climb bonus. net effect item gives +10 over base move.

I seriously doubt that you are intended to apply part of the item bonus, then go back and reapply the second half. It seems to me that RAI is more likely a net +5 on climb speed. Either way you apply them atomically gives the same answer.

Also if a merfolk used the boots them would only get a +5 item bonus to swim, and not +10. so this really seems like RAI and RAW.

Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

I would say no. Boots of Speed doesn't stack with itself. Normally, that's no issue: it gives a bonus to your land Speed and a bonus to your climb Speed, no overlap. But Quick Climber applies the bonus to your land Speed to your climb Speed. So you have two +5 feet item bonuses to your climb Speed and you just take the best, so it comes out to just a +5 bonus.

Jared Walter 356 wrote:

I would say the boots only give a +5 to your speed. I would rule that you need to apply all of the items or feats at the same time, and the boots are written in a way to make sure that you still get the +5 climb and swim speed.

There are three ways to apply these. The first two give the same answer, and the third seems like a stretch and break in how things are usually done.
1) Feat first, then items
2) Item first then feat
3) half item ability, then feat, then other half item ability.

1) applying feat first you get a climb speed equal to your move speed, then apply item and get climb = base move +5.
2) Apply item first. You get +5 to move speed, no bonus to climb speed (as you don't have one), then climb = move speed. net effect: climb = base move +5.
3) apply ability to +5 move, then apply feat to give climb speed, then go back and reapply boots climb bonus. net effect item gives +10 over base move.

I seriously doubt that you are intended to apply part of the item bonus, then go back and reapply the second half. It seems to me that RAI is more likely a net +5 on climb speed. Either way you apply them atomically gives the same answer.

Also if a merfolk used the boots them would only get a +5 item bonus to swim, and not +10. so this really seems like RAI and RAW.

The problem with your logic is that you are forgetting that the character does not normally have a Climb speed. They gain one when they climb due to the Legendary Athletics effect of Quick Climb.

So the order of operations actually goes like this:
1. Boots of speed increases all 3 movement speeds by 5, assuming they have them.
2. The character climbs. They gain a Climb speed equal to their Movement speed, so assuming a human 30 with Boots of speed and no other bonuses.
3. Character now has a Climb speed which is further modified by Boots of speed. Since that Climb speed does not currently have an Item bonus to it there is no reason that the Boots wouldn't increase that speed.

You are thinking about the Boots of Speed bonus as a "burst" bonus, like say a spell where you check what applies at the time of Casting. The Boots +5 bonus to speed is a constant bonus, triggered only by having one of those speeds. So when you gain that Climb speed, it takes effect.

And for balance purposes, +10 speed isn't exactly crazy. I see no reason to limit it in a way that doesn't strictly speaking follow the rules.

beowulf99 wrote:

The problem with your logic is that you are forgetting that the character does not normally have a Climb speed. They gain one when they climb due to the Legendary Athletics effect of Quick Climb.

So the order of operations actually goes like this:
1. Boots of speed increases all 3 movement speeds by 5, assuming they have them.
2. The character climbs. They gain a Climb speed equal to their Movement speed, so assuming a human 30 with Boots of speed and no other bonuses.
3. Character now has a Climb speed which is further modified by Boots of speed. Since that Climb speed does not currently have an Item bonus to it there is no reason that the Boots wouldn't increase that speed....

Even if you apply them in that order, as Orithilaen pointed out these are item bonuses, and item bonuses RAW do not stack with each other.

In this case, your land speed is 25 + 5 item bonus=30. Your climb speed w/feat then becomes 25 + 5 item bonus=30, and since you cannot apply the item bonus again, your climb speed is still 25 +5 item bonus=30 with the boots.

Jared Walter 356 wrote:

Even if you apply them in that order, as Orithilaen pointed out these are item bonuses, and item bonuses RAW do not stack with each other.

In this case, your land speed is 25 + 5 item bonus=30. Your climb speed w/feat then becomes 25 + 5 item bonus=30, and since you cannot apply the item bonus again, your climb speed is still 25 +5 item bonus=30 with the boots.

You are never applying an item bonus to the same speed twice, therefore there is no item bonus stacking issue in the first place. You are applying an item bonus to 3 different speeds, Land, Climb and Swim so long as you have those speeds.

Quick Climb and Quick Swim give you their respective move speeds equal to your land speed. Since your climb or swim speed is equal to your Land Speed with no mention of that being your unaltered land speed, you would in fact get the altered land speed as your base climb or swim speed(s).

Then your climb or swim speed would be enhanced, for the first time mind you, by the boots of speed. There is no stacking of any item bonuses to the same stat. One stat is buffed, then a second stat is derived from that stat which is then buffed.

Boots of Speed effects both stats separately. The only reason they appear to "stack" with climb or swim in this scenario is that this is one of a handful (Only other case I could find quickly was Barbarian with Raging Athlete which by my reading would work exactly the same way) where you have a movement speed type that is derived exactly from your land speed.

*Edited for clarity

If your climb speed copies your land speed, and the copy includes the land speed's item bonus, it should copy that part of it as an item bonus.

I would like a quote of that rule. Since the only time I can see one stat being derived from another stat is in the case of Movement speeds in the first place, good luck finding that.

CRB PG. 264 "Quick Climber" wrote:
If you’re legendary in Athletics, you gain a climb Speed equal to your Speed.

Nothing about bonuses there.

CRB PG. 606 "Boots of Speed" wrote:
These sleek red boots make your legs feel like they’re bursting with energy. You gain a +5-foot item bonus to your land Speed and to any climb or swim Speeds you have."

Nothing about bonuses not stacking there. In fact the wording even supports the idea that you apply the bonuses to each speed separately.

So what if you gained an item bonus to strictly your Land Speed? Does that modify your Quick Climber climb speed? If your answer is yes, then does that count as an item bonus to your climb speed? How? The item bonus it would be gaining does not apply to climb speeds. But it does alter that climb speed.

What if you had item bonuses from 2 separate items, one to land speed and one to climb? Do those "stack"?

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beowulf99 wrote:
I would like a quote of that rule.

Pg 444:

"There are three other types of bonuses that frequently appear: Circumstance bonuses, item bonuses, and status bonuses...If you have multiple bonuses of the same type you can only use the highest bonus in other words they don't 'stack'"

Pg 463:
"Even though speeds aren't checks, they can have item, circumstance, and status bonuses and penalties"

beowulf99 wrote:
stuff

Dude, you are obviously determined to interpret this as you've stated. Why keep looking for affirmation? Just go with it and play.

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Orithilaen wrote:
So you have two +5 feet item bonuses to your climb Speed and you just take the best, so it comes out to just a +5 bonus.

I think this is the real question here: If you have an item bonus to X and X = Y, can you also get an item bonus to Y?

Bonuses don't stack, but I think this particular scenario is a little unclear because your climb speed is still a separate parameter.

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PF2CRB wrote:

Ambiguous Rules

Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

beowulf99, as someone else just said, house rule it if you'd like, but there is no reason to believe that a feat is intended to amplify a magic item. It already has its advantage of giving you a great climb speed, and there is no reason, IMO, to expect it to amplify a magic item in addition to its already nice benefits. But, do as you will...

Do you really expect that the rules for the boots of speed would say something like "BTW, if there is another affect that would seem to amplify the effect of this magic item, it only ever does what it says here." Conversely, do you expect the feat to say, "If something else increases the land movement, this feat will not amplify that effect. The climb movement is only ever the same as the land movement."

I expect rules to be written in a way that the intent of the designer is clear. This is "addressed" in the Ambiguous Rules clause of the CRB.

CRB PG. 444 "Ambiguous Rules" wrote:

Sometimes a rule could be

interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

And I do not believe that this applies in this instance. Nowhere else in the game is a character Statistic denied a bonus that they do not gain from elsewhere. A Character with Quick Climb/Swim or Raging Athlete who has a bonus to their base speed would have that enhanced speed factored into their Climb.

Does this mean that their new climb speed has that type of bonus? I believe it does not, which means that the new Climb speed is a valid target for a bonus, even if it is of the same type as the bonus that original enhanced their base speed. Bonuses are never referenced as applying to anything except for the statistic that they call out as improving.

The simplest fix for this would be to add a rider in speeds that states that any time you use one speed to determine another, an oddly common benefit due to the number of effects that do that, you use the unmodified version of that speed. This would mean that a Monk with incredible Movement and Quick Climb would use their characters base speed for their climb speed, and could be targeted by status bonuses to Climb speed.

Instead we have no such clarity and have to use the characters current speed when determining their new speed. But that new speed itself is not benefiting from any bonuses, so is eligible to receive those bonuses.

Beowulf 99,
I think we are clearly in agree to disagree territory.

I will be running it at my table that feats that provide swim, or climb speeds come over exactly, that is a status bonus to move, become a status bonus to climb/swim. An item bonus to move, comes over as an item bonus to swim/climb. Of course, I also apply each item/feat once once all at the same time.

I really do think this rule applies:

CRB PG. 444 "Ambiguous Rules" wrote:

Sometimes a rule could be

interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

Youre interpretation has the two repercussion I would consider problematic, and not working as intended:

1) A creature born to swim or climb like a spider or a merfolk, only gets the +5 speed bonus once, when someone who has learned to do the same through a feat somehow magically gets a double dip on the movement bonus.

2) The order you apply the items/feats is suddenly critical. You only get the double dip if you split up the item application into two doses. once to get +5 item bonus to speed, and a second time to get an additional +5 item bonus to climb.

Frankly, this strikes me as "one version is too good to be true, it probably is." These feats seem written to provide climb and swim speeds equal to land speed to mimic creatures that naturally have these speeds. The feat doesn't strike me as intended to make a random item twice as effective as it would be members of races that naturally have these.

Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
beowulf99 wrote:
Quick Climb and Quick Swim give you their respective move speeds equal to your land speed. Since your climb or swim speed is equal to your Land Speed with no mention of that being your unaltered land speed, you would in fact get the altered land speed as your base climb or swim speed(s).

While I think we all agree that the climb speed incorporates any bonuses you have to your land speed, I don't see any reason to think that an ability giving you a climb speed equal to your land speed gives you a base climb speed greater than your base land speed. That would be pretty weird.

I get where you're coming from but I'm kind of struggling to parse "+5 to your climb speed at level 15 if you combine a specific magic item with a skill feat and three skill increases in athletics" as 'too good to be true' either.

What is needed is a clarification on whether derived stats are eligible for further bonuses if the stat they are derived from was taking advantage of that type of bonus. That will open up room for future development if nothing else.

I personally don't see a problem with the example of this thread, however there are much worse examples. Triple Time gives double the bonus of the Boots of Speed to each of your speeds, so would end up providing a +20 boost to climb and swim using either Quick Climb/Swim or Furious Athlete, and on top would further stack with the item bonus from Boots of Speed. You'd end up with a lvl 4 barbarian human climbing or swimming at a speed of 55 with both effects up.

That is more in line with what I see as "problematic".

There's no 'order of application', it's just that you have a move speed of 35ft. and a climb speed equal to your land speed. Only bonuses and penalties to your move speed will affect your climb speed.

It's a case of 'replacement', like when you use one skill for another. Bonuses and penalties to the replaced skill are not effective, only those to the replacing skill.

Except that you are not "replacing" a move speed. You "gain" a move speed that is equal to your land speed. The assumption is that you do not have a climb speed prior to the ability granting you one, and I would imagine the intention is for the new climb speed to replace any existing climb speed if it is faster.

It is itself a new speed statistic for your character and is thus a valid target for the purposes of bonuses and penalties. The existence of move speed specific bonuses and penalties supports this argument.

SuperBidi wrote:
There's no 'order of application', it's just that you have a move speed of 35ft. and a climb speed equal to your land speed. Only bonuses and penalties to your move speed will affect your climb speed.

So is your argument here that if you got some completely separate bonus to your climb speed that the feat would cause it to have no effect as well?

beowulf99 wrote:

Except that you are not "replacing" a move speed. You "gain" a move speed that is equal to your land speed. The assumption is that you do not have a climb speed prior to the ability granting you one, and I would imagine the intention is for the new climb speed to replace any existing climb speed if it is faster.

It is itself a new speed statistic for your character and is thus a valid target for the purposes of bonuses and penalties. The existence of move speed specific bonuses and penalties supports this argument.

RAW, you can read whatever you want, it's not much clear, I agree.

But RAI, everyone considers that changes to your move speed apply to your climb speed. So, stat replacement looks like a proper reading, and it stops all kind of endless debates.

Squiggit wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
There's no 'order of application', it's just that you have a move speed of 35ft. and a climb speed equal to your land speed. Only bonuses and penalties to your move speed will affect your climb speed.
So is your argument here that if you got some completely separate bonus to your climb speed that the feat would cause it to have no effect as well?

Yes, I read it that way.

So then, at what time could you ever benefit from a bonus to climb speed? If the rules worked the way you say they do, why would any effect boost more than your land speed, since there seem to be far fewer effects that give you a speed other than a derivative of your land speed?

What situations can a player character have a climb speed that is not dependent on their land speed? (hint: there aren't many of them.)

If that is the case, why have the option to have a bonus to climb speed anywhere in the book?

If there is even one instance of a creature that has a separate climb speed than land speed, then it is useful. I will point out that the developers seem to have specifically written things to "future-proof" the game. That means they have written things so that later additions will still match, such as the thread about simple crossbows. So it could even be for later additions.

beowulf99 wrote:
So then, at what time could you ever benefit from a bonus to climb speed? If the rules worked the way you say they do, why would any effect boost more than your land speed, since there seem to be far fewer effects that give you a speed other than a derivative of your land speed?

There are tons of creatures with Climb Speeds. Right now, there are no options for PCs, but I expect some to appear in later books.

Also, Polymorph effects give you such kind of movement types.
Roughly, any natural movement types have a speed of their own. PCs are the exceptions, in fact, with magical and feats movement types.

SuperBidi's interpretation of the rules is literally the opposite of "future proofing", if it stops a type of bonus, that already exists in the game, from being a viable option.

I will concede that the rules as written are awkward at best, but that doesn't mean that the method with which they usually grant you a non-land speed, having that speed be equal to your land speed, makes that non-land speed incapable of taking advantage of any bonuses that your land speed is already taking advantage of.

That is an exception that the rules simply do not include, no matter how you read them.

Hence my recommendation that any derived stat be derived from the parent stats "base" form, rather than factoring in any bonuses. That neatly sidesteps the entire "double stacking" issue, and doesn't restrict a character from taking advantage of bonuses they may be eligible for.

Edit: Not to mention that this would also "future proof" any future move speed bonuses they decide to add in the future. It also opens the door for more derived stats, say an effect that upgrades a Save to be equal to another, or an effect that increases the range of an attack to be equal to another. Not saying either of those are stellar ideas, but at least they would not bring us back to the forums with this exact issue, applied to a different stat.