Don't Agree? Not Welcome


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon. Love the game, but this particular community is not an enjoyable one to participate in.


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That might just be confirmation bias.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Off topic discussions is pretty jovial.


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I mean, I don't disagree that discussions on the forums tend to devolve in a lot of cases, and that a lot of people on here enjoy yelling into the void, but if this is meant to be constructive and raise an issue with how things are discussed here, do you want to elaborate on exactly what you mean? Not even asking for specific examples, just what you see as the problem.


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The DM of wrote:
These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon. Love the game, but this particular community is not an enjoyable one to participate in.

*HUG*


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The DM of wrote:
These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon. Love the game, but this particular community is not an enjoyable one to participate in.

Well if your posts weren't anything but vacuum strawmen made to make your point seem better that it actually was while trying to underplay any counterpoints making it obvious you are not actually looking for a debate but just to push your own biased agenda.

But you do you


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Is this about the other day when some people disagreed with you in a thread you started?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The DM of wrote:
I also like poking the hornet's nest from time to time.
The DM of wrote:
These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon.

The first post might explain why you get that feeling.


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People disagree here all the time. I've been told I'm wrong. I've been very wrong. I've never felt unwelcome.


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I've felt unwelcome here, but that was years ago... nowadays the percentage of posts that disagree with me that include personal attacks is actually the lowest I've ever experienced on a public forum.

Feels very welcome for me to be here, despite my opinions often being treated as alien and unfathomable.


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To be fair, it's hard to fit into a community whose demographic you don't really belong with. A community has an expectation. Failure to meet that expectation makes you strange, weird; outcast, even. And people involved in said community who dislike what you try to bring to them will be up in arms and bully or oust you until you either conform to their ideals or give up and move on.

On top of that, it's not much of a conversation when one side does not and will not listen to the other, or at the very least consider it and explain why, in their opinion, something does or does not work, or is or isn't. This is true of both the outsider who is foreign to the community, and the community who is foreign to the outsider.

I know this because I deal with this insanity in absolutely every aspect of my life, struggling against this grain of society, never grasping the situation properly. Here is no different than interactions with others in the real world; I have to meet or aspire to their expectations or be discarded and disregarded.

Join the club, "friend". It's a lonely one, because even if you're in this same boat as us, you're still by yourself on this endeavor. I mean, I don't really fit in here either since some time before the release of this edition. I never will, to be frank.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I mean, I don't really fit in here either since some time before the release of this edition. I never will, to be frank.

Are you sure? I mean I would have called you one of the regulars. A pillar of the community, if that didn't sound so dramatic to say.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There are plenty of.posts with people disagreeing and debating just fine. Sometimes it devolves but it isnt constant.

I mean the apg section is a hotbed of folk trying to get classes to fit their preferred vision while things are malleable and I think they've been pretty polite and constructive.

There are a few very specific topics where you point of view isnt allowed depending on who you are, but those have been pretty clearly laid out by the moderators and easy to avoid.


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Squiggit wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I mean, I don't really fit in here either since some time before the release of this edition. I never will, to be frank.
Are you sure? I mean I would have called you one of the regulars. A pillar of the community, if that didn't sound so dramatic to say.

LOL I have to say, I understand Darksol. I feel the same way. I think about the time they started developing PF2 in the background, I noticed a distinct change in PF1 rulings that went counter to my liking more and more as we got closer to the new edition.

With PF2, things have diverged even further and makes it clear I'm not who the game was made for. I'm still trying to figure out if it's worth the effort to stick it out and try to find a way to make it work. :P

Dark Archive

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I'm honestly confused by the "has become" part because the forum has always been like this at least for five years I've been here :p

Like as far as I can tell, it has always had arguments where people get overly defensive on both sides and it devolves to personal attacks about integrity of other posters. It mostly depends on which section you are posting in, if you post in rules discussion, you see much more arguments than if you post in lore or other sections.

Saying otherwise just makes me feel like people are imagining this "golden age where everyone got along with each other" out of nostalgia that I don't really share due to not being here that long. At most I can understand it if you were talking about 2007 or 2012 years since back during those years 5e didn't exist yet and everyone was united in "4e sucks, Pathfinder is true successor to D&D!" and was still in honeymoon phase overall.

That and game was even more niche so less posters to get in arguments with :p 5e's popularity has increased popularity of rpgs overall and more people means more arguments.

Then again, I do admit that I might have problem understanding the alienation mindset because I feel like outsider in every single community I have ever posted in :P Hard to understand why people feel alienated when I haven't ever felt belonging to any internet forum in first place.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Did anybody say "pillars of community"? Why, no need for the flowers, but thank you anyway!


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Demands that the game be modified to suit <POSTER'S> personal preference - still around.
Insistence that there shouldn't be any changes and everything is fine - still see those.
Claims that if other people "actually played the game" they'd have a different opinion - haven't disappeared.
Assumption that claiming you didn't like 4e D&D makes your point stronger - ongoing.
Posters thinking their assumptions about systems they know little about qualify as facts - of course.
Gorbacz posting something snarky - not sure about that.

Still looks like the Paizo Messageboard to me.


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CrystalSeas wrote:
The DM of wrote:
I also like poking the hornet's nest from time to time.
The DM of wrote:
These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon.
The first post might explain why you get that feeling.

Yeah, I dunno how you can say you like stirring up trouble and then complain you feel unwelcome.


I could have used a more detailed about the TS feelings and how he perceive the community replies, but the way he exposed it all looks more like a rant than a topic for a discussion.


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Maybe it's just me, but this feels like a bad thread to post when all the Paizo employees are enjoying their holiday, and thus aren't on the forums. I don't want them to feel like they can't ever take their eyes off of us.


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Salamileg wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but this feels like a bad thread to post when all the Paizo employees are enjoying their holiday, and thus aren't on the forums. I don't want them to feel like they can't ever take their eyes off of us.

Oh what are you talking about?

A post like this on Thanksgiving rolling right into the modless weekend?

Sheer coincidence.


Salamileg wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but this feels like a bad thread to post when all the Paizo employees are enjoying their holiday, and thus aren't on the forums. I don't want them to feel like they can't ever take their eyes off of us.

I thought the same. The timing is suspicious.

I am glad that I am not the only one


Lanathar wrote:
Salamileg wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but this feels like a bad thread to post when all the Paizo employees are enjoying their holiday, and thus aren't on the forums. I don't want them to feel like they can't ever take their eyes off of us.

I thought the same. The timing is suspicious.

I am glad that I am not the only one

I wasn't really thinking suspicious, just inappropriate.


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A person opens a thread because feel that anyone who disagrees with the majority is attacked.

Two people start making veiled accusations.

Congratulations! you guys proved his point.

observation1. On holidays, people have more time to write posts.

observation2. The world is big and not everyone knows that in the US is a holiday.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Not really veiled when links are provided.


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People forming "sides" and trying to enforce some sort of hive-mind in a niche community like this is a pretty normal occurrence.
It's normal in an online community lifecycle: When an idea is ingrained in the most frequent participants, treated as gospel and then any dissident is marginalized, so they leave only only 1 faction remains in the end.

This forum isn't in the last stage yet, there's still a lot of contrary opinions out there, and I figure it won't get a lot worse than it currently it is. But "go play a different game" or "Op is just a troll trying to disrupt our perfect harmony" have been staple weapons in here since the Playtest started.

These are the official forums after all, the one place where you can actually have your opinion read by the game designers! Gotta voice your ideas no matter how "different" they are because there's a good chance it will actually matter.


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I like to think there’s a bunch of disagreements because the forums are filled with a lot of brilliant tt gamers who’ve seen and played a lot of different things.

Sometimes people disagree, sometimes we even get snarky with each other, but I like to hope that we have respect for each other behind that. I know that even those I’ve disagreed with, even relatively recently, are paragons of passionate gamers.

Some days you’re with the cult of personality and some days you’re not, but the days you’re not are just as valuable as the days you are, at least that’s my take.


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The DM of wrote:
These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon.

I'd love to know where's that bandwagon. In my opinion, it's just because people are quite driven when they argue.

Or is it just that the average roleplayer maximizes intelligence and dumps charisma... :D

Dark Archive

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ChibiNyan wrote:
This forum isn't in the last stage yet, there's still a lot of contrary opinions out there, and I figure it won't get a lot worse than it currently it is. But "go play a different game" or "Op is just a troll trying to disrupt our perfect harmony" have been staple weapons in here since the Playtest started.

Still not getting idea where people think it started recently, that "Go play a different game" was a thing in 2015 at least :p

Heck, I'm pretty sure I've seen lot of posters who act like its recent thing use exact same arguments on people they disagreed with in previous years.


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CorvusMask wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
This forum isn't in the last stage yet, there's still a lot of contrary opinions out there, and I figure it won't get a lot worse than it currently it is. But "go play a different game" or "Op is just a troll trying to disrupt our perfect harmony" have been staple weapons in here since the Playtest started.

Still not getting idea where people think it started recently, that "Go play a different game" was a thing in 2015 at least :p

Heck, I'm pretty sure I've seen lot of posters who act like its recent thing use exact same arguments on people they disagreed with in previous years.

It’s been this way since 09/10. I got into a 5 page back and forth with someone over PF1 stealth rules. If anything I think the forums are more open and tame than they were back in the “Wild West” of internet moderation lol


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

And "go play a different game" has been pretty excellent advise when given to me sometimes. It led to me moving on from 5e when it wasn't giving me what I wanted. Made me be happy with all the material oWoD had when I didn't like the nWoD setting stuff. In non-rpg land it let me be happy with finding a different MOBA than some of my friends were playing and I left an FPS that was changing with patches into something I didn't like and that was much healthier than complaining on the reddit for hours a day that the product didn't fit what I personally wanted (and after a year of patches the pendulum swung and I checked it out again and quite enjoyed it.)


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Midnightoker wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
This forum isn't in the last stage yet, there's still a lot of contrary opinions out there, and I figure it won't get a lot worse than it currently it is. But "go play a different game" or "Op is just a troll trying to disrupt our perfect harmony" have been staple weapons in here since the Playtest started.

Still not getting idea where people think it started recently, that "Go play a different game" was a thing in 2015 at least :p

Heck, I'm pretty sure I've seen lot of posters who act like its recent thing use exact same arguments on people they disagreed with in previous years.

It’s been this way since 09/10. I got into a 5 page back and forth with someone over PF1 stealth rules. If anything I think the forums are more open and tame than they were back in the “Wild West” of internet moderation lol

I meant that "everyone played the same game". It was just Pathfinder and everyone liked it, even if they hated some random rule or book. People were rude and stuff of course! Could be told to "go play 5e". It's not that people were better, but "sides" were hard to define.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
ChibiNyan wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
This forum isn't in the last stage yet, there's still a lot of contrary opinions out there, and I figure it won't get a lot worse than it currently it is. But "go play a different game" or "Op is just a troll trying to disrupt our perfect harmony" have been staple weapons in here since the Playtest started.

Still not getting idea where people think it started recently, that "Go play a different game" was a thing in 2015 at least :p

Heck, I'm pretty sure I've seen lot of posters who act like its recent thing use exact same arguments on people they disagreed with in previous years.

It’s been this way since 09/10. I got into a 5 page back and forth with someone over PF1 stealth rules. If anything I think the forums are more open and tame than they were back in the “Wild West” of internet moderation lol
I meant that "everyone played the same game". It was just Pathfinder and everyone liked it, even if they hated some random rule or book. People were rude and stuff of course! Could be told to "go play 5e". It's not that people were better, but "sides" were hard to define.

Not really. You had people playing DND 2e, 3.5, 4th, 5th, and everyone and their various interpretations and houserules for P1.

And the arguments were wide ranging back then too.


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Martialmasters wrote:
making it obvious you are not actually looking for a debate but just to push your own biased agenda.

One person makes a complain, and he's instantly accused of pushing an hidden agenda - as if he w&s part of a big illuminati conspiracy. Because obviously Pathfinder is so important, several secret society are fighting to determine its destiny.

This is why this community is toxic - and why this forum is awesome. Discussing with people believing in those kind of conspiracy is awesome.


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Hbitte wrote:

A person opens a thread because feel that anyone who disagrees with the majority is attacked.

Two people start making veiled accusations.

Congratulations! you guys proved his point.

observation1. On holidays, people have more time to write posts.

observation2. The world is big and not everyone knows that in the US is a holiday.

Welcome to the forums, new user! We're not that bad, when you get to know us. ^_^


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i know the other day , i said i felt like i prefered playing pf1e and got shouted at like i was trying to say 2e was bad. it was strange.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Bandw2 wrote:
i know the other day , i said i felt like i prefered playing pf1e and got shouted at like i was trying to say 2e was bad. it was strange.

If that level of response was enough to consider being "shouted at" I can see why the community may seem toxic. The responses weren't particularily strong, and though while on the pro pf2 were mostly discussions on how the design focuses on specialization in different ways. I don't think anyone stated you were wrong for preferring pf1 (I could have missed that.)

I think its perfectly fine to like the invest everything and buff to the limit style game that PF1 promoted. I just felt to address the idea that specialization wasn't a true thing in PF2, which I think it very much is and in fact the weakening of things like skill buffing spells makes that specialization more important (getting +20 to a skill for a spell basically obfuscates all but maximal optimization of that skill for most levels.)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i don't think you shouted at me, it were others.


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Being disagreed with, even being disliked, is not the same as being unwelcome.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Bandw2 wrote:
i don't think you shouted at me, it were others.

I also had a look through the thread. I don't believe any of the others posts are ones I would consider as shouting. It was however a cursory glance so perhaps I misread/misinterpreted some posts.

I can understand if you don't want to dredge up specifics though.


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Look, maybe "kicking the hornet's nest" was just a poor choice of words on the DM ofs part. But it literally means starting trouble. Someone who explicitly comes here with the intention of starting trouble is not going to be well received.


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Squiggit wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I mean, I don't really fit in here either since some time before the release of this edition. I never will, to be frank.
Are you sure? I mean I would have called you one of the regulars. A pillar of the community, if that didn't sound so dramatic to say.

I was, at one point. I did make a guide or two (the first one was pretty blunderful, but I learned from that mistake and made two other ones which blows that one out of the water in terms of effectiveness and applicability). Now? Not so much. I took a back seat because I know my concepts and ideals of what I expect of this game are individualistic. They would work for me, but not for other gamers, and in the pages of text of PF2, it shows in paragraphs upon paragraphs. And I feel that, because I don't "match" those ideals, I'm not considered one of the fold. The OP might feel that same way, and while I might disagree with his mannerisms to reach that conclusion, I do agree that it is very easily possible to feel unwelcome if your ideals aren't conformed to the community's.

Sapient wrote:
Being disagreed with, even being disliked, is not the same as being unwelcome.

The first one makes sense. The second one is far more contentious, when we consider that things we dislike are generally things people try to avoid or keep out of things they want to enjoy. It might be a reason a character stands against something. In fact, it's largely the way houserules and such arise.

Even if it's not an active statement of "You're not welcome here," the behaviors and syntaxes of users can still emulate that attitude, whether they mean to or not. All sides are guilty of this.


Do remember that the way things read depends on the person, time, tone, and frequency. Which is why disagreement in itself isnt the problem. I do still remember the familiar thread where I felt cornered by what I remember as frequent nitpicks and constant need to defend myself. Now they may not have felt a problem, and if I were to go back I may not find things as bad, but at that time I was done and was close to just leave the forum.

A good discussion is always welcomed, but sometimes things can get too heated.

***********
Also I never saw anyone tell someone to look for another game in the PF1 forum (in my relatively short time there). The closest thing I remember were discussions about toxic tables were either a player or GM were just being not fun.

There were plenty of different suggestions for house rules, homebrew, techniqued to deal with player balance, etc.

And the rules forum has always been a place where people went to argue about which interpretation of a rule was right. Very much a paradise for rule lawyers, who in the end either accepted the outcome Paizo gave or decided to ignore the thread and continue doing things their way.


There are always going to be contentious topics ("Paladins Falling", "Caster/Martial Disparity", etc.). If you find that you're not enjoying yourself when you talk about those topic, maybe seek out different topics that align with your interests.

Or just put a little different spin on whatever is bugging you. "I don't like [X]" is going to read a lot differently in the homebrew forums than the general discussion forums.

The Exchange

The DM of wrote:
These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon. Love the game, but this particular community is not an enjoyable one to participate in.

Sorry that you feel that way. If you could provide some context, that would be helpful in understanding why you made that statement. Otherwise, it is impossible to answer in a meaningful fashioni

The words "toxic" and "bandwagon" are a vague without context so it requires responders to try to figure out what you mean. For example, is support of PF2 considered the bandwagon and toxicity is saying that it is a better system than PF1 or DD5?


Luckily one can ignore anything one finds unproductive, unhelpful or negative in any way. In the case of a moderated internet forum, that means you only have a problem if the moderator decides you're unwelcome.


mrspaghetti wrote:
Luckily one can ignore anything one finds unproductive, unhelpful or negative in any way. In the case of a moderated internet forum, that means you only have a problem if the moderator decides you're unwelcome.

Can easily kill a thread you don't like by starting a fire or derailing it into conspiracy theories. Some people evn just imemdiately flag it to be moved or deleted. People def have some agency in getting rid of stuff they don't like from others.


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Gaterie wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
making it obvious you are not actually looking for a debate but just to push your own biased agenda.

One person makes a complain, and he's instantly accused of pushing an hidden agenda - as if he w&s part of a big illuminati conspiracy. Because obviously Pathfinder is so important, several secret society are fighting to determine its destiny.

This is why this community is toxic - and why this forum is awesome. Discussing with people believing in those kind of conspiracy is awesome.

Read his past posts.

Then you will understand


The DM of wrote:
These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon. Love the game, but this particular community is not an enjoyable one to participate in.

On the contrary, this is fertile soil, not toxic. Look how your tiny one-post seed sprouted in a large floating and now sentient island of sargassum.

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