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The kind of geeks (like myself) who frequent these forums have an abundance of passion but sometimes a bit less social tact. I think the playtest threads are a good showing that most opinions will be passionately argued against, regardless of whether they're on the side of the status quo or not.
Things do get heated, but it's important to try your best to not take things too personally, and endeavor to treat people with the same respect you'd want from them. Most of the time, people will respond in kind. And if they don't, ignore them. If someone's going to be rude, you don't owe them your time.
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About the playtest threads:
All I will say (and not necessarily to the OP here, though it does apply to a few of their threads) is don't make threads with baiting titles and get mad when people fall for the bait.
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Being disagreed with, even being disliked, is not the same as being unwelcome.The first one makes sense. The second one is far more contentious, when we consider that things we dislike are generally things people try to avoid or keep out of things they want to enjoy. It might be a reason a character stands against something. In fact, it's largely the way houserules and such arise.
Even if it's not an active statement of "You're not welcome here," the behaviors and syntaxes of users can still emulate that attitude, whether they mean to or not. All sides are guilty of this.
I may avoid certain posters. Certain posters may avoid me. But we are so welcome to make our points, state or ideas, etc.
I also don't think of the discussions here, heated or not, as being about "sides". People have their ideas, which other people will agree with or not.
You may disagree with all of this. Maybe everyone disagrees with it. Maybe people will stop reading my posts, thinking my ideas are beyond hope. That doesn't mean the place is toxic.
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You're all welcome here so long as you support my exact vision for the witch class, as outlined in my thesis.
/s
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This is seriously the tamest Forum I've ever been a part of... By far... The old 3.5 forum whheeeooouuu boy.
I do think their is a correct way to talk to people and not a lot of people don't talk to each other in a respectful tone. Then of course it's hard to really understand tone on a forum. You tend to project your own mood on to others without the normal ques to go by. *also Sometimes you have to look inward and see what am I doing to illicit these feelings in others.
All that sad I do like arguing with Greystone but that is mostly just for fun.
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You're all welcome here so long as you support my exact vision for the witch class, as outlined in my thesis.
/s
If I don't have to wiggle my nose to cast a spell I don't want to hear it!
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This is seriously the tamest Forum I've ever been a part of... By far... The old 3.5 forum whheeeooouuu boy.
I actually know one tamer forum with larger user base, because that one had mods with sniper level precision(they don't take kindly to provocating people on purpose) and bans topics if they repeatedly cause flame wars xD
This is seriously the tamest Forum I've ever been a part of... By far... The old 3.5 forum whheeeooouuu boy.I actually know one tamer forum with larger user base, because that one had mods with sniper level precision(they don't take kindly to provocating people on purpose) and bans topics if they repeatedly cause flame wars xD
You can't just drop a bomb like that without saying which one?
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You can't just drop a bomb like that without saying which one?This is seriously the tamest Forum I've ever been a part of... By far... The old 3.5 forum whheeeooouuu boy.I actually know one tamer forum with larger user base, because that one had mods with sniper level precision(they don't take kindly to provocating people on purpose) and bans topics if they repeatedly cause flame wars xD
Just to note though when I said "larger user base" I meant relatively, dunno actually whether Paizo or TV Tropes has more forum users :P
These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon. Love the game, but this particular community is not an enjoyable one to participate in.On the contrary, this is fertile soil, not toxic. Look how your tiny one-post seed sprouted in a large floating and now sentient island of sargassum.
Nice Frank Herbert reference...
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I'm pretty new to these forums and haven't felt toxicity directed at me at all. There definitely seems to sometimes be old bad blood between other posters, but I think that's what you get with a fairly small but active forum like this one.
I mean, I've spouted some frankly ridiculous thoughts about the witch on the playtest threads and nobody shouted at me!
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I'm pretty new to these forums and haven't felt toxicity directed at me at all. There definitely seems to sometimes be old bad blood between other posters, but I think that's what you get with a fairly small but active forum like this one.
I mean, I've spouted some frankly ridiculous thoughts about the witch on the playtest threads and nobody shouted at me!
YOU THERE, SPORKEDUP! YOU SEEM NICE!
Consider yourself duly shouted at.
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YOU THERE, SPORKEDUP! YOU SEEM NICE!
Consider yourself duly shouted at.
I like RicoTheBold. I respect him. But I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING HE JUST SAID.
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Nice Frank Herbert reference...These forums have become toxic to anyone not on the majority bandwagon. Love the game, but this particular community is not an enjoyable one to participate in.On the contrary, this is fertile soil, not toxic. Look how your tiny one-post seed sprouted in a large floating and now sentient island of sargassum.
And here I thought I was the only person who read The Jesus Incident/Lazarus Effect.
As to the topic. There's maybe half a dozen people here that are perpetually dismissive, sarcastic and hostile. Figure out who they are, ignore them, and the forum quality improves substantially.
I thought my topic about single-list witches was at least somewhat controversial, but people seemed to keep an overall nice tone (which incidentally, I appreciated very much! I learnt a lot).
That said, tone is notoriously hard to convey over text - what seems like innocent snark to me doesn't necessarily come off that way to everyone.
The kind of geeks (like myself) who frequent these forums have an abundance of passion but sometimes a bit less social tact. I think the playtest threads are a good showing that most opinions will be passionately argued against, regardless of whether they're on the side of the status quo or not.
Things do get heated, but it's important to try your best to not take things too personally, and endeavor to treat people with the same respect you'd want from them. Most of the time, people will respond in kind. And if they don't, ignore them. If someone's going to be rude, you don't owe them your time.
Off topic but I gotta ask are you the legendary builder of the Monktopus build in PF1?
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“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Did you update it with the cuddle clause?You're all welcome here so long as you support my exact vision for the witch class, as outlined in my thesis.
/s
Yes, your peer review was extremely valuable. I think the board will ultimately approve my designs but in the event it doesn't, I will have to accept my loss with grace. I only hope I can have as much dignity in defeat as Tableflip McRagequit always did.
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Yes, your peer review was extremely valuable. I think the board will ultimately approve my designs but in the event it doesn't, I will have to accept my loss with grace. I only hope I can have as much dignity in defeat as Tableflip McRagequit always did.Did you update it with the cuddle clause?You're all welcome here so long as you support my exact vision for the witch class, as outlined in my thesis.
/s
Yay!
As someone with more than one caustic interaction on these boards to my (dubious) credit and having gone through the OP's posts with zero interest in some of what was being disputed...
It most assuredly takes two to tango.
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I strongly agree that since the 2e playtest the forum has gotten far more toxic. I opted to provide my input on various mechanics throughout the playtest based on my observations through many scenarios. Since launch, I've done the same for pfs and as a GM of Fall of Plaguestone. The point of that engagement and participation was to help shape the game into something I wanted to play as pfs 1e has made a significant impact on my life by providing a much needed healthy dose of escapism in the past few years.
However, my strong stance on the martial caster disparity in 2e has made me feel alienated. I've seen similar/repeat posters coming in and posting on non related posts of mine, always in disagreement and often quite antognistic. In the actual martial vs. Caster disparity forums it is quite toxic and anyone who sits on the casters were over nerfed side gets a barrage of ad hominem attacks, snide remarks, or 1 word responses meant to dismiss and stifle conversation.
The last straw finally broke when I posted something in that article post on martial vs. Caster disparity, got accused of not reading the article and just ranting. I then spent quite a chunk of time doing a critical analysis of what I thought were the underlying bias issues in the article. But I quickly realized that all that nice stress relief that 1e was bringing is getting completely wiped out by participating in these forums. I couldn't even bring myself to see whatever flame war probably followed my second post but I'm sure it was as negative as it has been since the beginning of the 2e playtest as that thing went to 10+ pages.
Going forward, I absolutely will limit my participation on these forums to corner case rules interpretation advice or fun PC builds. The community finally broke my spirit in wanting to participate.
Casters are only at a disparity in two scenarios.
1-you are comparing them to 1e where they were overpowered.
2-you expect casters to average the same dpr as a fighter when soley blasting without taking into account buff or debuff spells into the equation.
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I think we have enough martial-caster disparity threads that this one doesn't need to become one either.
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I think we have enough martial-caster disparity threads that this one doesn't need to become one either.
Only reason this thread is still here is due to the probably intentional timing of the Post itself to be during a holiday weekend.
At least two of his original threads despite them being set-up in such a way as to draw such attention. I did reply to. Constructively debating.
He is not looking for a debate though. Merely looking to poke as he himself admitted.
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I strongly agree that since the 2e playtest the forum has gotten far more toxic. I opted to provide my input on various mechanics throughout the playtest based on my observations through many scenarios. Since launch, I've done the same for pfs and as a GM of Fall of Plaguestone. The point of that engagement and participation was to help shape the game into something I wanted to play as pfs 1e has made a significant impact on my life by providing a much needed healthy dose of escapism in the past few years.
However, my strong stance on the martial caster disparity in 2e has made me feel alienated. I've seen similar/repeat posters coming in and posting on non related posts of mine, always in disagreement and often quite antognistic. In the actual martial vs. Caster disparity forums it is quite toxic and anyone who sits on the casters were over nerfed side gets a barrage of ad hominem attacks, snide remarks, or 1 word responses meant to dismiss and stifle conversation.
The last straw finally broke when I posted something in that article post on martial vs. Caster disparity, got accused of not reading the article and just ranting. I then spent quite a chunk of time doing a critical analysis of what I thought were the underlying bias issues in the article. But I quickly realized that all that nice stress relief that 1e was bringing is getting completely wiped out by participating in these forums. I couldn't even bring myself to see whatever flame war probably followed my second post but I'm sure it was as negative as it has been since the beginning of the 2e playtest as that thing went to 10+ pages.
Going forward, I absolutely will limit my participation on these forums to corner case rules interpretation advice or fun PC builds. The community finally broke my spirit in wanting to participate.
Off topic is the place to go if you're frustrated with other parts of the website.
No angst.
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I've noted a distinct cultural shift on these boards since the advent of 2E.
*slapstick old man voice*
I've noted a distinct cultural shift on these boards since the advent of 2E.
*slapstick old man voice*
If'n you're really old, you forgot to tell 'em to get off your yard, take that fancy skateboard'n some place else and to turn off that horrible music... Back in my day curmudgeons knew how to complain right...
If'n you're really old, you forgot to tell 'em to get off your yard, take that fancy skateboard'n some place else and to turn off that horrible music... Back in my day curmudgeons knew how to complain right...I've noted a distinct cultural shift on these boards since the advent of 2E.
*slapstick old man voice*
*chuckles*
This is 2019. Old folks today wine about different things. Like Florida Man and the mass migration of folks away from Facebook. Get with the times!
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I feel like Caster/Martial disparity has always been a contentious topic, it's just that the pendulum has swung the other way with the new edition so people with strong feelings on the topic are left with unfamiliar rhetorical ground to hold. This should even out with time.
It was a correct decision in PF2 to take the things that were the weakest and err on the side of making them too strong, and take the things that were the strongest and err on the side of making them too weak- since we can always fix the latter problem by printing more books.
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This is 2019. Old folks today wine about different things. Like Florida Man and the mass migration of folks away from Facebook. Get with the times!
*eyes narrow* When is thinking your music is much netter than the younger generation gone out of style? I'm beginning to wonder about you...
Only reason this thread is still here is due to the probably intentional timing of the Post itself to be during a holiday weekend.The only question is: is this an illuminati conspiracy or a NASA conspiracy? Is it tied to the blue beam project? and what about the crop circles we saw last summer?
All I know is that it sounds like it's a perfect time to advertise my new line of tinfoil hats! On sale now! Perfect gifts for the other people in your bunker or militia! Ask about bulk rates!
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since we can always fix the latter problem by printing more books.
Even though this is factually true - it is empirically untrue. Fighters in PF1 (when used with stamina, melee tactics toolbox, background skills, and other new goodies) were objectively as good as any other melee class yet carried the stigma of their core printing through to the end.
The only way for that to change is for them to 'wrap up' all the rules into a single place (like unchained rogue).
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I think It's less users making people feeling unwelcome and more calling out some *really* bad faith arguments.
For example look at this one literally from this threads OP:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42ux7?Unlimited-Martial-Fireballs-How-the-Pend ulum
Where he claims that barbarians 3 action options outperform casters blast options and can do so all day vs a limited resource.
Which assumes that the barbarian in question:
Is already raging
Is wielding a reach weapon
Is a Giant Instinct Barbarian
Is Level 15+
Has taken the feats for Whirlwind Strike
Is positioned in the middle of a horde of enemies
Can Safely use 3 actions and not move when surrounded by enemies
Can consistently manage to meet all the above criteria several times a day.
and
The caster is using a fireball in a 7th level slot as opposed to one of the more powerful level appropriate spells
Someone pointing out the above argument isn't realistic and doesn't reflect actual play experience *isn't* saying that posters like OP are unwelcome, rather that the argument they are putting forth is flawed or misleading.
This is 2019. Old folks today wine about different things. Like Florida Man and the mass migration of folks away from Facebook. Get with the times!*eyes narrow* When is thinking your music is much netter than the younger generation gone out of style? I'm beginning to wonder about you...
All I know is that it sounds like it's a perfect time to advertise my new line of tinfoil hats! On sale now! Perfect gifts for the other people in your bunker or militia! Ask about bulk rates!Only reason this thread is still here is due to the probably intentional timing of the Post itself to be during a holiday weekend.The only question is: is this an illuminati conspiracy or a NASA conspiracy? Is it tied to the blue beam project? and what about the crop circles we saw last summer?
Fun thing about that is I've never liked pop music. so I always complain about music kid's listen to now a day. even when I was in middle school.
So I went and read the thread before this one that led to this one and it seemed to me that people where just trying to figure out what sub forum it was meant to go under so they could flag it for the right one and the person took it wrong. That is what it seemed like to me.
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Regardless, the OP seemed to have taken the advice of the thread and stepped away to cool off. It's a good thing to remember if ever you find yourself getting upset at people you've never met over a game that we all enjoy.
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Someone pointing out the above argument isn't realistic and doesn't reflect actual play experience *isn't* saying that posters like OP are unwelcome, rather that the argument they are putting forth is flawed or misleading.
True, but it's easy to forget to be polite when saying we're "your argument is flawed". It's pretty hard to avoid sounding like we're saying, "You're dumb."
I'll go and look at the thread in question to see if that's what's happening here...
Right, I'm back.
1 OP starts with "This is not another casters got nerfed rant. I still think casters can be cool. I think martials have more options to be interesting in more spheres of capability than ever before and that that is a good thing."
Then shows a high-level martial with a specific build can do better-than-fireball damage on a group of nearby foes an unlimited number of times per day.
Ends with "Anyway, what's the point? None really. This one just gnaws at me a little."
2 A lot of other posters respond by pointing out that this is a weird comparison (fireballs have range, high-level casters have better options than fireballs, etc.) This would counter the argument if any real argument had been made.
3 OP: "It's amazing how quickly folks on this forum try to shut down discussions of martials vs. casters in PF2. Even when someone says they aren't trying to sway the argument one way or another and just want to discuss something, out pours a torrent of triggered responses."
I suspect this post was triggered not by individual posters being rude, but by the sheer number of people arguing against the original post. That can't feel good. (I disagree with the sentiment expressed here, though. Making counterpoints isn't shutting down a discussion, it's engaging in discussion.) The OP remained polite after that and was willing to acknowledge other people's points.
4 People continue to mock the original contrived scenario where the martial is routinely able to whirlwind strike enormous numbers of foes.
I rate that thread as: Acceptable.
Which is above average by internet standards.
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When the issue that was highly complained about was Caster/Martial Disparity, making the Fighter as good as the other melee classes (mostly other martials) doesn't really address the issue.
Nah - you are confusing arguments. The fighter was seen as bottom tier all the way through the end of PF1 even though it spent several years with enough options to be competitive against even new 'hot' classes like the slayer (Weapon Master's handbook came out in 2015 ) with advanced weapon training.
Rogue was seen as 'fixed' with unchained rogue - the difference here is that books *can* fix a class post launch - but they can't do it via scattered options that require a dozen books brought together to make a whole. Which is a 'handwave' argument that casters are fine because they can be fixed with future books.
They can, but that hardly is a good reason for any class to feel off on launch.
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Casters are only at a disparity in two scenarios.
1-you are comparing them to 1e where they were overpowered.
2-you expect casters to average the same dpr as a fighter...
You're just proving his point lol.
Make remark about caster-martial disparity -> Immediately shut down with quick "You're wrong I'm right".| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Casters are only at a disparity in two scenarios.
1-you are comparing them to 1e where they were overpowered.
2-you expect casters to average the same dpr as a fighter...
You're just proving his point lol.
Make remark about caster-martial disparity -> Immediately shut down with quick "You're wrong I'm right".
I'm inviting him to prove be wrong via debate. That's not shouting him down.
Fighter has a static +2 vs everyone in terms of hitting opponents. They are the best for consistent damage and one of if not the best at being a dpr machine in the game.
Monks might have better DPA. And barbarians better dph. But a fighter averages out the best.
Willingness to have a debate and holding a view point is not the same as what you are describing.
Makes me think the real issue is people unable to tell the difference. If your going to come in with a hot take prepare your take to be challenged.