Gemstones, art objects etc


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Which Paizo PF2 product will add lists of official treasures that aren't coins or magic items: jewelry, paintings and the like.

I'm not asking for general advice, I'm asking about official specific items.

Things like official 500 gp gemstones: alexandrite; aquamarine; violet garnet; black pearl; deep blue spinel; golden yellow topaz (just to pick the PF1 examples).

Things like official 750 gp art objects: Silver chalice set with moonstones, Gold dragon comb set with red garnets as eyes, Ceremonial electrum dagger with a black pearl in the pommel, and so on (just to pick three 5E examples).

I find the lack of non-magical, yet not mundane treasures in the treasure table 11-1 (page 536-) to be a troubling omission.

I would have wanted there to be, right in that table, entries for jewelry, paintings etc to complement the potions and +1 swords. For each level.


Objects which are not raw ( as raw i mean a Pearl or even a gem ) should gain a price depends the time and materials spent with the skill.

Like somebody who has the painter lore could expend one or more days to paint something, increasing the value of his work the more time he works on it.

On the one hand he could gain a daily pay for his Services.

On the other hand he could work on something, which gain a value = to his daily pay * nr of days spent to make it.

About raw materials even some spells seem to be semplified "500gp of gems" "adamantite ore worth at least 1500g" and so on.

To me is better.
We have a treasure trove table which gives informations about the rewards per level. Instead of saying "350g" you could say "gems worth at least 300g" then they will entually discovering their value after.


I'm asking about specific entries, not general information such as "gems worth 500 gp".

I'm asking for treasure tables that don't just include things like
"full plate armor 30 gp"
"Wondrous figurine, onyx dog, 34 gp"
"+1 weapon potency rune 35 gp"
...
but also include valuable items such as
"jasper gemstone, 50 gp"
"gold flute 40 gp"
"silver cup with mysterious markings 50 gp"
"gold-plated copper candleholders, pair, 45 gp"

In short, giving the GM a wider choice that includes gemstones, art objects and the sort. Not just magic items, regular equipment.

The Pathfinder 2 rulebook has no info on individual gemstones. It has no selection of valuable objets d'art.

So I'm asking which upcoming official Paizo book will rectify this, and incorporate the new items in an expanded master treasure list?


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I understand your point Zapp.

I am not sure there will be extra room for what you are asking for, but while it is true that by adding let's say a list of 150 objects/gems with a progression in terms of reward ( from lvl 1 to lvl 20 ) could add a fast way to customize treasures.

On the other hand, isn't to have stuff like:

All the Jasper gemstone are worth 50gp

All the Silver cuPs are worth 30gp

All the gold plaTed candeleholders are worth 100gp

way too strict in terms of treasures?

I know you are talking about "non equipment items", but having named stuff with a specific price wouldn't be worse than deciding yourself, even without a base guide?

I mean, a painting ( or a gem ) could have a value which could go from 5sp to 10000g, to make an example.

Knowing that the party will receive around 1000 gold pieces from the trove, would it be for any reason worst than having a list to say "you find 300gp, a beautiful painting and some emeralds"?

TLDR: knowing the gp value of the reward, what would be the point of having a specific list of items by price? Just asking.


Only the devs might know, I'd expect tables for this in a hardback all about gear (Ultimate Equipment 2e). I don't think it will be in anything announced so far.


Art objects are usually valued more on subjective taste.

However, I agree that precious gems and metals should have been added on to the materials section (CRB pg. 577). As for how much an item made of something like gold cost, they could have a minimal cost based on the grade of item [Full gold for High-Grade, gold-plated for Low-Grade], plus the cost of material. This is how the system works now for other objects. You could add on to the price based of the "Earn Income" action's result to add the value based entirely on its artistry.

Having said all that, I doubt adding this mechanic would do much to improve the game, unless you had a jeweler who was really in to building jewelry. It's not like a gold sword would be anything other than be heavy and easy to dent. Still, that's my suggestion. Gold item prices could be based the price of Silver items times ten. As for the gems, I'm not a lapidarist, so I can't help with that.

As a side note, I wish there was a feat that let you use the Crafting skill for the "Preform" or "Make an Impression" action, if you had a sample of your work that audience could appreciate. Or vise versa, a feat that makes anything you make worth more based on the fact you made it. Although, I suppose that could be one interpretation of the " Legendary Professional" feat.


HumbleGamer wrote:


On the other hand, isn't to have stuff like:

All the Jasper gemstone are worth 50gp

All the Silver cuPs are worth 30gp

All the gold plaTed candeleholders are worth 100gp

way too strict in terms of treasures?

I know you are talking about "non equipment items", but having named stuff with a specific price wouldn't be worse than deciding yourself, even without a base guide?

I mean, a painting ( or a gem ) could have a value which could go from 5sp to 10000g, to make an example.

Knowing that the party will receive around 1000 gold pieces from the trove, would it be for any reason worst than having a list to say "you find 300gp, a beautiful painting and some emeralds"?

TLDR: knowing the gp value of the reward, what would be the point of having a specific list of items by price? Just asking.

I specifically want what Dungeons & Dragons has always offered.

I find general advice being profoundly unhelpful - it is the specific items I want the game to suggest.

Deciding 800 gold out of the dragon's treasure should come as furniture is the easy part.

The hard part is going from "800 gold's worth of furniture" to something like this:
An antique ceramic vase, inlaid with bronze (125 gp)
An ornamental fur cloak with alabaster clasps (75 gp)
A durable marble figurine of a snake, inlaid with gold (600 gp)

And just because you asked: since you level up fairly rapidly, you don't really need more than ten treasures in each value category.

Changing the value of the gold-plated candleholders from 100 gp to 500 gp would be trivial, but by the time you need more than five or so treasures, the heroes will have leveled up, and you're looking at the next-higher treasure table anyways!

Having a couple dozen specific already-created examples is very useful. Then I can mix and match as I please, creating, say, a durable platinum figurine of an elephant, inlaid with mother-of-pearl (1250 gp) in seconds.

Merely general advice "some of the loot can come as art objects" doesn't trigger my imagination, and I miss the specific examples that the Dungeon Master's Guide has always provided to D&D Dungeon Masters!


Paradozen wrote:
Only the devs might know, I'd expect tables for this in a hardback all about gear (Ultimate Equipment 2e). I don't think it will be in anything announced so far.

I must say (as someone new to Paizo's games) I was dismayed when I finally realized the tables I was looking for and expected simply weren't there, right in the Core Rulebook.

Let's hope you're wrong and they're part of the upcoming Gamesmaster's Guide :-)


The_Hidden_GM wrote:
However, I agree that precious gems and metals should have been added

That's not what I am asking for so there's no such agreement.

I am not asking for the building blocks.

I am asking for specific ready-made examples.
(See for example [url]http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm[/url])

That is, not "since electrum is valued at 400 gold an ounce, this statuette must be worth 12000 gold".

Instead I want examples of statuettes, with specific detail that kickstarts the imagination, such as

"An electrum statue of a wandering trader with a large pack on his back. His race is indistinguishable. (12000 gold)"

Quote:
Having said all that, I doubt adding this mechanic would do much to improve the game

I think it would hugely improve my game, having gemstones and art objects right where I need them, in the table for 7th level treasure when I need them :)

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You're the first person to ask for this in 4 months, which likely only validates Paizo's decision to leave this area of rules for a later book.


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You're also doing a really good job populating this list of art objects and gemstones yourself.


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Gorbacz wrote:
You're the first person to ask for this in 4 months, which likely only validates Paizo's decision to leave this area of rules for a later book.

Nope don't do that. It's a real s$~#ty way of shuttering discussion.

I am going to read your reply as "I personally don't need this so I'm fine with it being left out".

Unless of course you actually like a forum where you can't suggest things unless everyone agrees. Meaning no discussion at all, since the things everybody can agree on is likely in the book already.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zapp wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
You're the first person to ask for this in 4 months, which likely only validates Paizo's decision to leave this area of rules for a later book.

Nope don't do that. It's a real s$%~ty way of shuttering discussion.

I am going to read your reply as "I personally don't need this so I'm fine with it being left out".

Unless of course you actually like a forum where you can't suggest things unless everyone agrees. Meaning no discussion at all, since the things everybody can agree on is likely in the book already.

No, that's not how you should read my post.

You should read it as "since you're apparently the first person to even bring this up, the problem isn't big enough to accuse Paizo of 'troubling omissions' and demand to be informed by developers when will these 'troubling omissions' be fixed".

Of course, you'll disagree with me, but the fun thing about discussion forums is that quite frequently you'll end up with people disagreeing with you. I'd suggest you to get used to that feeling, you've encountered it frequently already your short tenure here and it looks like you're headed for more situations where reality will disappoint you. It's OK, adult people can handle that, they usually do this by shrugging and continuing on.


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Zapp wrote:


Nope don't do that. It's a real s*!#ty way of shuttering discussion.

I am going to read your reply as "I personally don't need this so I'm fine with it being left out".

Unless of course you actually like a forum where you can't suggest things unless everyone agrees. Meaning no discussion at all, since the things everybody can agree on is likely in the book already.

You are specifically not asking for a discussion though, and anyone who tries to discuss in your threads is basically told to go away.


Gorbacz wrote:
Zapp wrote:


No, that's not how you should read my post.

Yes it is.

You don't get to tell people your issues are more relevant and important than others. Trying to shut down requests and discussions with the "it doesn't make Paizo enough money" card is a toxic attempt to censure discussion.

But since I won't be baited to derail this thread, that is all I'm going to say.

To everyone else: This thread is where I ask which Paizo publication that, in your best guess, will add official gemstones and art objects specimens (similar to the ones D&D have offered since dawn of time) to the master treasure list?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Jeweler’s Toolbox


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You know, the official gem prices of PF1 didn't seem to be officially followed very much. Upon looking at this AP book 4, there are two rubies (5,000gp) priced at 3,000 gp a piece. Later there are rubies priced at 450 gp. Feels like they just figured out the value of the hoard they wanted to make and then divided it between whatever gems or art pieces struck their fancy.


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I’m curious why you need an “official” P2 table. You’ve clearly got an abundance of tables you can use from P1 and D&D, seems like your problem is already solved.


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Zapp wrote:
To everyone else: This thread is where I ask which Paizo publication that, in your best guess, will add official gemstones and art objects specimens (similar to the ones D&D have offered since dawn of time) to the master treasure list?

Having played BECMI d&d for many years, I can say that while it offered a list of gems and jewelry (two lists actually: one on the basic set, and a new one on the companion set), it was quite vague.

I would appreciate something like that, some guidelines about common gems pricing; you seem to be asking about specific objects, and in my opinion that's unneeded.


LizardMage wrote:
I’m curious why you need an “official” P2 table. You’ve clearly got an abundance of tables you can use from P1 and D&D, seems like your problem is already solved.

That's a preposterous argument.

Clearly I got a lot of rules I can use from P1 and D&D, what do I need a PF2 rulebook for at all? Sorry but no.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
You know, the official gem prices of PF1 didn't seem to be officially followed very much. Upon looking at this AP book 4, there are two rubies (5,000gp) priced at 3,000 gp a piece. Later there are rubies priced at 450 gp. Feels like they just figured out the value of the hoard they wanted to make and then divided it between whatever gems or art pieces struck their fancy.

Well, D&D adventures don't follow the DMG table either.

That's not what it's for. That is, I have never taken the purpose of those tables to say that every agate must be valued at 75 gp, or that every silver statuette with emerald eyes are worth exactly 1000 gp.

Instead, the purpose is to help out the GM whose players have just killed the monster and are now looking for loot. The GM goes to table 11-1 Treasure and wants to populate the 5000 gp hoard.

In this case, general advice like "you can have some of the wealth in the form of gemstones or art objects" is profoundly unhelpful.

What IS useful would be a selection of maybe ten 25 gp items, ten 75 gp items, ten 250 gp items, ten 1000 gp items and so on; as well as a listing of two dozen gemstones; their color and suggested values.

What you're looking for is ready-made specific items you can use right away.

I'm somewhat baffled having to explain this at all! This is self-understanding concepts, people!

As if it hasn't been part of D&D for decades. As if you're playing and living and breathing Paizo air exclusively, and anything that Paizo didn't think to include in the CRB must therefore be unnecessary! Sheesh...


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Lemme try my hand at helping you out.

Gemstones

  • Alexandrite (500 gp)
  • Aquamarine (500 gp)
  • Violet garnet (500 gp)
  • Black pearl (500 gp)
  • Deep blue spinel (500 gp)
  • Golden yellow topaz (500 gp)
  • Jasper gemstone (50 gp)

Art Objects

  • Silver chalice set with Moonstones (750 gp)
  • Gold comb set with red garnets as eyes (750 gp)
  • Ceremonial electrum dagger with a black pearl in the pommel (750 gp)
  • Gold flute (40 gp)
  • Silver cup with mysterious markings (50 gp)
  • Gold-plated copper candleholders, pair (45 gp)
  • Antique ceramic vase, inlaid with bronze (125 gp)
  • Ornamental fur cloak with alabaster clasps (75 gp)
  • Durable marble figurine of a snake, inlaid with gold (600 gp)
  • Durable platinum figurine of an elephant, inlaid with mother-of-pearl (1250 gp)

I worked very hard on this list, so please be kind.


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Zapp wrote:
LizardMage wrote:
I’m curious why you need an “official” P2 table. You’ve clearly got an abundance of tables you can use from P1 and D&D, seems like your problem is already solved.

That's a preposterous argument.

Clearly I got a lot of rules I can use from P1 and D&D, what do I need a PF2 rulebook for at all? Sorry but no.

It’s hardly a preposterous argument, it’s a reminder that you have other resources to find what you want. If I want to run a PF2 game in Ravnica, you can bet I’ll be using 5E’s Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica. Resources are exceptionally useful, time savers, and Paizo probably assumed that a fair amount of their player base has those same resources.

Sure, a repeat of those charts would be useful to newer rpg players and maybe you’ll see it in the upcoming Game Mastery Guide. I don’t think it’s very important since I do have access to many of those same charts if I’m not feeling up to deciding that there is 100gp Ruby, especially when I think not including a way to generate NPCs or monster creation rules is a greater hinderance.

Still, reading your posts, you don’t seem interested in anything helpful. Strangely you tell us “As if you're playing and living and breathing Paizo air exclusively , and anything that Paizo didn't think to include in the CRB must therefore be unnecessary!” but are acting like the only thing that you can currently use is PF2 and PF2 only.

Cheers Bud, hope you enjoy just yelling at everyone.


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Zapp wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Only the devs might know, I'd expect tables for this in a hardback all about gear (Ultimate Equipment 2e). I don't think it will be in anything announced so far.

I must say (as someone new to Paizo's games) I was dismayed when I finally realized the tables I was looking for and expected simply weren't there, right in the Core Rulebook.

Let's hope you're wrong and they're part of the upcoming Gamesmaster's Guide :-)

According to the t-rex himself I am wrong. Just saw this in another thread.
James Jacobs wrote:
(From the Office of Expectation Management: The Gamemastery Guide will have lots of help and advice on how to build encounters, including a "treasure by encounter" chart that helps to break down individual treasure costs by level, and does have some random tables for rolling up gems and art objects—full lists of all magic items as random tables aren't something we had room to present in this book.)

Link to the thread.


https://imgur.com/a/4NqLJnn


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You’ve clearly written several examples yourself.
I wrote a bunch of readaptations and adventures, sometimes remaking the treasures entirely, and have made a bunch just like it.

You know how much value you need to set for the treasure.
The fluff is fluff - make it up. Flavour it. Spice it at will.

Gimme that heavy lacquered table in dark Garundian hardwood with goldleaf finishes. Show me some mother-of-pearl jewelry box with silver and platinum decor. Pick up a dragonbone hairbrush with rubies, or that one rare copper coin with the emperor facing the wrong way that was minted in just a dozen copies before they noticed the mistake.

You’re not gonna find those in a table. Tables only give you the boring stuff.


Ediwir wrote:
You’re not gonna find those in a table. Tables only give you the boring stuff.

Not gonna disagree.

But sometimes you're thankful for a boring silver ewer, or a tedious carved bone or ivory statuette, or a dull finely wrought small gold bracelet!

Having them in an official easy to reach book is valuable to me, and I appreciate Paizo adding them to Pathfinder 2.

Sovereign Court

I think the best you will get will either be whatever form it takes in the GMG coming soon, or just picking through the APs and finding the flavourful art items that Paizo puts in there.

Personally and other players I play with, tend to get art objects and then total up their value into a ‘treasure’ or similar category. Rarely does such an item invoke interest to keep it as is. However this is not saying you or your players don’t/can’t take that view, but possibly the majority view that Paizo looked at and said “its not worth wasting valuable page space for such tables that could be used by many more people, plenty of other resources around for people to get that stuff.” - for instance I’m sure there are plenty of random art object generators on the internet for you to use.

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