Medic in COM really really strong


General Discussion


The lvl 2 medic ability that lets you over heal the Stamina is really really strong.

We have a Healer Mystic in our group and now their spending RP to heal stamina. which has 2 effects.
1) It makes his healing really strong
2) It make the Envoy feel pretty useless as he was specialized in healing stam

Is anyone else having problems with this ability? Am I reading it wrong?


Yeah, mystic plus that ability= turning the envoy into a healing footnote. Especially at higher levels when mystic cure 4 starts healing (looks up the technical term for it) buckets of D8s.


Funny I had an envoy and mystic group prior to COM and the healer Mystic was bored after level 3 and the Envoy was by far the better healer.


Uetur wrote:

Funny I had an envoy and mystic group prior to COM and the healer Mystic was bored after level 3 and the Envoy was by far the better healer.

It's not strange at all that things were different before this radically new rule option was published.


Uetur wrote:

Funny I had an envoy and mystic group prior to COM and the healer Mystic was bored after level 3 and the Envoy was by far the better healer.

The mystic cannot normally heal stamina damage. But they can heal a great googleymoogley amount of hit points. Even a mystic not specced for it can run out, slap a level mystic cure 1 on someone and take them from zero to all their HP by donating theirs.

The envoys ability to heal staminia without waiting for the bad guys to dip into your HP pool is their niche ability market protection. The amount healed is.. meh.

The medic archetype lets the mystic have the best of both worlds: Im healing your staminia before we get to hp AND i'm using this bucket of dice to do it. He's eating the envoys lunch and then heading to the buffet table. (or by a stricter reading of the ability, once you're missing A hitpoint they're going to fill up your staminia pool too...)

Scarab Sages

@BigNorseWolf: I’d argue that the envoy’s ability to heal stamina is not ‘meh.’ It is something to do even if the party is not currently into HP, costs nothing, and can heal 1 or 2 good hits. Plus, since people with any amount of Con or The toughness feat tend to have more stamina than HP past a few levels, it is good to heal people before they get into the ‘oh no,’ range. Y’know, the range where two crits can take you from no Stamina full HP to KOed. (Happened to me.)

Medic is still phenomenally good, and yes, I’d rather have HP healing than stamina, but I wouldn’t call it ‘meh.’


Maybe the Envoy can have an option to heal hit points with the next Character Operations Manual. I dunno.

Wayfinders

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"Heal hitpoints? I do that already with my medical expertise, bedside manner and medical expert feat."

Second Seekers (Jadnura)

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Charli Poshkettle wrote:
"Heal hitpoints? I do that already with my medical expertise, bedside manner and medical expert feat."

Took you 8 years of college what I learned how to do in 2 with Calden cayden brand healing serums.

Cayden Calden brand healing serums. Drink till you feel better, one way or the other.


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VampByDay wrote:
@BigNorseWolf: I’d argue that the envoy’s ability to heal stamina is not ‘meh.’ It is something to do even if the party is not currently into HP

Thats what shooting is for. Or bashing.

Quote:
costs nothing

It costs a class ability and a standard action (or multiple class abilities and your move action to less effect). Thats way more important than 50 credits at first level much less what happens when 50 credits is "let me check my cheekpouches for loose change" at higher levels.

Quote:
and can heal 1 or 2 good hits.

I think thats overly optimistic

I can't copy the chart over but a bit of scrap work gets me:

L Mook %
1 90.9
2 200.0
3 105.9
4 114.3
5 111.1
6 73.9
7 131.0
8 129.4
9 96.2
10 128.6
11 87.9
12 112.3
13 84.0
14 94.7
15 121.3
16 203.6
17 95.2
18 108.6
19 117.9
20 127.3

and

Level Boss %
1 52.4
2 25.9
3 37.0
4 72.4
5 79.4
6 88.5
7 69.0
8 51.5
9 91.2
10 51.9
11 86.8
12 64.0
13 144.6
14 60.3
15 76.7
16 50.0
17 114.5
18
19
20

Now this is not a representative sample or average, i just grabbed average damage off the first monster in the cr that wasn't a spellcaster. But it looks like envoy healing was set up to cure roughly 1 mooks worth of hit. You're healing A hit from a mook. Occasionally 2, far often not even one. If you can make the difference between your party dropping a mook or not, that works out better even from a strictly healing perspective. (never mind the critters might have nasty riders like poison, con drain, turn you into a tribble etc)

This doesn't account for the ubiquitous enhanced resistance, but it also doesn't account for how easy it is for higher level monsters to full attack or gods forbid multi attack and still hit reliably.

Envoy to mystic healing percentages:

Le Percentage
1 71
2 100
3 129
4 75
5 88
6 100
7 76
8 85
9 93
10 49
11 53
12 57
13 47
14 50
15 74
16 78
17 82
18 86
19 90
20 95

not as bad as i thought but still...the medic mystic has the envoys lunch there.

Quote:
Medic is still phenomenally good, and yes, I’d rather have HP healing than stamina, but I wouldn’t call it ‘meh.’

This is what makes it meh

The action economy is expensive

Most importantly, it doesn't make that much difference.

Is the person missing staminia/not missing staminia after your healing? Doesn't matter, they need to rest anyway so you can inspiring boost them again. If you can't rest well.. then you also need to discount the value if the inspiring boost.

Is the person missing HP that they otherwise would not have been missing? Doesn't matter, glug a healing potion. They come in six packs.
Yes, they cost credits. Your bar bill is however linear or less and your income is exponential.

Did the person drop/not drop because of the boost: well at this level it matters, especially if you don't have a mystic. If you have a mystic , they can only go to zero anyway, the mystic pops over and heals them of all their HP.

Did the person die/not die because of the boost: Not that likely for two reasons. 1. damage taken in one hit seems to level off as you level while your HP go up, making you less likely to be decapitated and 2) you seem to be just as likely get whacked once, stay up because of your staminia points, and then get whacked again to go down and then go down hard.


Envoy's also face the limit of only healing that person once per fight.
Mystic can keep healing as long as he has spells.

Once an ally has benefited from your inspiring boost, that ally can’t gain the benefits of your inspiring boost again until he takes a 10-minute rest to recover Stamina Points.


Matt2VK wrote:

Envoy's also face the limit of only healing that person once per fight.

Mystic can keep healing as long as he has spells.

Once an ally has benefited from your inspiring boost, that ally can’t gain the benefits of your inspiring boost again until he takes a 10-minute rest to recover Stamina Points.

Much less what an actual healing mystic can do: heal up the party once per resolve point.

Scarab Sages

Charli Poshkettle wrote:
"Heal hitpoints? I do that already with my medical expertise, bedside manner and medical expert feat."

Same, actually.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

So Medic isn't completely redundant on an Envoy?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Not remotely. Especially not the level 9 and 18 abilities.


HammerJack wrote:
Not remotely. Especially not the level 9 and 18 abilities.

thats a LONG way to go into a character before you start seeing any return.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It's also a long way before you give things up for those abilities. The level 2 ability is not really redundant if you're trying to make healer into a character's primary role, since it will also apply to item/equipment based healing (not really my favorite form of support, but it's something a lot of people want to do). The buy in for that is only 1 improv, which is a bearable cost.

When you start giving things up again, the abilities you gain are not redundant with your envoy options. Therefore, medic and envoy aren't redundant if you want to pair them.


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HammerJack wrote:
The level 2 ability is not really redundant if you're trying to make healer into a character's primary role, since it will also apply to item/equipment based healing .

healer as a primary role is kinda meh in starfinder to start with

The medics entire problem is that it lets everyone do.. what the envoy already does. The primary healing ability is inspiring boost, which already heals staminia (and the rarity/almost uniqueness of that ability is largely what gives envoy healers a niche)

So yes, medic is really, really redundant on an envoy.

Quote:
When you start giving things up again, the abilities you gain are not redundant with your envoy options. Therefore, medic and envoy aren't redundant if you want to pair them.

2nd level

Healing staminia: the envoy already does this. redundant

healing staminia with a healing serum: if you are 1d8 minus whatever Hp you lost into your staminia you're going to rest, redundant.

more creatures with longterm care: beyond niche

1 minute disease treatment.... look it takes at least 10 minutes to get space syphilis you can take 10 minutes to cure it.

Unless your campaign is General Relativity Hospital there's nothing for an envoy to gain at 2 that they dont already do.

the 9th level abilities are really meh. The second level ability is sexy enough for other healers that I've seen the idea of a 2 level soldier dip to pick it up.

Starfinder went really hard on the idea that a party healer isn't necessary.

The best healer is by far the healing mystic. Doctoring just doesn't hold a candle to it.

When you combine those doctoring winds up being second fiddle in a playstyle that isn't very neccesary.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

So...where does that leave someone who wants to heal the party but doesn't want their character concept to be dominated by MAGIC! (as a mystic) or SCIENCE! (as a Biohacker)?


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
So...where does that leave someone who wants to heal the party but doesn't want their character concept to be dominated by MAGIC! (as a mystic) or SCIENCE! (as a Biohacker)?

Hosed.

My OW penalty is stacking with the permanent charisma penalty, and I'm not trying to bash anyones characters (i'm actively trying not to) , but that's just the state of regular doctoring in this system.

The staminia HP resolve system was designed so that no one had to be stuck playing the healer, because that was a problem for previous iterations.

The game has a science fantasy element to it, and one of the things the fantasy part is better at than the science part is healing.


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I kind of got the sense that the Medic archetype can only heal Stamina if the target is already into their HP. Like, if I'm at full HP but my Stamina is down by 20, the Medic can't heal my Stamina because the rule says you have to "restore Hit Points to a creature" in order for the surplus to go to Stamina. If I'm not down any HP, then they can't restore any HP to me, and therefore can't heal my Stamina.

But after reading this conversation, it seems I might have misread this ability and Medics can heal Stamina even when the target is not into their HP?


Dimity wrote:

I kind of got the sense that the Medic archetype can only heal Stamina if the target is already into their HP. Like, if I'm at full HP but my Stamina is down by 20, the Medic can't heal my Stamina because the rule says you have to "restore Hit Points to a creature" in order for the surplus to go to Stamina. If I'm not down any HP, then they can't restore any HP to me, and therefore can't heal my Stamina.

But after reading this conversation, it seems I might have misread this ability and Medics can heal Stamina even when the target is not into their HP?

I actually agree with you. It is counter-intuitive to be able to heal a fully healthy character. The power seems to be addressing the fact that folks felt like their healing was "wasted" if they hit the target's max HP...Not to make Envoys redundant.

Also, the text for Mystic Cure says you "can't transfer more Hit Points than you have or more Hit Points than the target is missing." At the very least, you can't Mystic Cure to siphon your own health to boost Stamina.


Dimity wrote:


But after reading this conversation, it seems I might have misread this ability and Medics can heal Stamina even when the target is not into their HP?

I think you're probably right as far as it's intended but

1) there are cheesey workarounds (take a point of bleed, you're missing a hp, bam, legal stam healing)

2) A reason the HP healing is problematic is the overflow, but also because they need to wait till you're far into HP before healing gains any real use. Wasting 4 hp of healing serum isn't that big a deal, but wasting 20 points on a channel because you're only 10 hp down is.

1 New in box
2 cool battle damage look
3 Missing some HP
4 missing way too many hp
5 down
6 dead

If you're healing HP you kind of need to wait for stage 4 before you bother healing HP. Even with the more restrictive reading on the medic being able to heal at stage 3 and push people back up into 1 or 2 really puts a crimp on the envoys healing niche.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
So...where does that leave someone who wants to heal the party but doesn't want their character concept to be dominated by MAGIC! (as a mystic) or SCIENCE! (as a Biohacker)?

Hosed.

My OW penalty is stacking with the permanent charisma penalty, and I'm not trying to bash anyones characters (i'm actively trying not to) , but that's just the state of regular doctoring in this system.

The staminia HP resolve system was designed so that no one had to be stuck playing the healer, because that was a problem for previous iterations.

The game has a science fantasy element to it, and one of the things the fantasy part is better at than the science part is healing.

Darnit I want to play a mundane character! MUNDANE! Someone who manages to be a hero without cool powers or fancy, expensive education/training! Just their practical knowledge of frontier living, basic first-aid and a sawed-off shotgun!


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You have died of dysentery.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
So...where does that leave someone who wants to heal the party but doesn't want their character concept to be dominated by MAGIC! (as a mystic) or SCIENCE! (as a Biohacker)?

Hosed.

My OW penalty is stacking with the permanent charisma penalty, and I'm not trying to bash anyones characters (i'm actively trying not to) , but that's just the state of regular doctoring in this system.

The staminia HP resolve system was designed so that no one had to be stuck playing the healer, because that was a problem for previous iterations.

The game has a science fantasy element to it, and one of the things the fantasy part is better at than the science part is healing.

Darnit I want to play a mundane character! MUNDANE! Someone who manages to be a hero without cool powers or fancy, expensive education/training! Just their practical knowledge of frontier living, basic first-aid and a sawed-off shotgun!

Silly question, but: why? Starfinder is not, and never was, a "mundane" setting. It, like Pathfinder, is a setting where talent and skill leads to extraordinary, nigh-superhuman capacity. It doesn't distinguish between "magic" and "not magic", and never did.


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Out of curiosity, what would that even look like ?
If it's not magic but mundane, how is it not science ?
Medicine without science is... Well, magic, really.
There doesn't seem to be much in-between.

Rules wise now, with neither magic nor fringe biohackery, feats and skills are kind of it. Envoy has some very relevant options, as has been pointed out more than once.
The future will give us more, eventually, but that's probably what you look into for now. And if that's not what you want, I just don't understand the question anymore.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Metaphysician wrote:
Silly question, but: why? Starfinder is not, and never was, a "mundane" setting. It, like Pathfinder, is a setting where talent and skill leads to extraordinary, nigh-superhuman capacity. It doesn't distinguish between "magic" and "not magic", and never did.

Mostly because with the character I was envisioning, I was looking to create a foil to his cousin, a Solarian I'm currently playing in a Dead Suns campaign. They lived in a small frontier town on Akiton that was always on the verge of becoming a ghost town and while his cousin got a lucky break and attracted the attention of a Solarian passing through the area who took him to Absalom Station as a student, he was stuck on Akiton, in poverty, with depression to boot. I wanted to make a guy who was decidedly "not special" surviving and even thriving despite the odds and becoming a hero even though he didn't have any special powers or class features provided by fancy, expensive education. Working-class hero, you know?

Nyerkh wrote:

Out of curiosity, what would that even look like ?

If it's not magic but mundane, how is it not science ?
Medicine without science is... Well, magic, really.
There doesn't seem to be much in-between.

Rules wise now, with neither magic nor fringe biohackery, feats and skills are kind of it. Envoy has some very relevant options, as has been pointed out more than once.
The future will give us more, eventually, but that's probably what you look into for now. And if that's not what you want, I just don't understand the question anymore.

You kind of answered your own question with "fringe biohackery." There's a difference between "science" and "SCIENCE!" Which is why I wasn't sure the Biohacker was the right fit for this concept, and Envoy was. It relies too much on delving into the theoretical and fantastical, whereas the character concept I'm developing is more "the closest thing I got to an 'education' was helping the local town doctor when he got overwhelmed and watching what he did, and then getting sucked into his role when he died and having to learn things on the fly."

Envoy, mixed with feats and skills, IS what fits that description best, what I was wondering is if Medic made a healing-focused Envoy more effective, and it sounds like the answer is no. Medic's benefits are too redundant and come at too high a level, and Mystics and Biohackers will ALWAYS outstrip an Envoy when it comes to healing the party, so said party will always go to the Mystic or Biohacker first.


My 9th level Envoy is a doctor, with maximum ranks and expertise in Medicine, but his main contribution to party health is stacking enemy debuffs and party buffs in order to kill enemies before they start chopping into HP, with the occasional Inspiring Boost.

That said, nobody in Society usually feels like spending a lot of money on healing serums, so I have used Medicine to top people off between encounters.


The Medic in COM really affects Mystics primarily and fixes one of their biggest issues. Historically they couldn't effectively heal until someone suffered 75% or more of their total health pool (stamina and HP). The first 50% which is stamina they couldn't affect. In actual gameplay I found a Envoy with their in combat Stamina gain ability and post combat care boosts were better healers than Mystics. Now that a Mystic can overheal they don't have to wait they can cancel out all sorts of hits acr

Unfortunately if you have a party where you have two people filling a similar role and you directly compare them, then yea one will be incrementally better at that role. I have found this to be a common issue across a variety of game systems and not just Starfinder. Luckily an Envoy is more than just a stamina buffer, just like a Mystic is more than a healer.

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