Looking past the Com, because I can't get enough Starfinder!


General Discussion

Scarab Sages

Okay, so a year and half ago I made a thread called "Another list of things I want in upcoming Starfinder books" and I listed a few things I wanted to see in Starfinder. And as of the COM, I have had most of them given. So now it's time to look INTO THE FUTURE!

As a brief aside: the list of things were:

Shuttlepods/Worker bees for starships: The only one we haven't gotten yet, although we do have the 'launch tube' so a cruiser can haves shuttles now. I have my fingers crossed that the upcoming Starship Operation Manual will solve this issue.

Viable Martial arts build: Both the Vanguard and Qi Adept soldier fit nicely, as well as my own cobbled together version of Arcane Assailant+Raw Lethality+Improved Unarmed Strike+Ring of fangs (at least, it works mechanically)

Another healing option, preferably tech-based: Got it with the Biohacker

More themes: Got them in spades now

More Races: Now there's too many to count!

Update to Solarians: Have them, though I still say they need heavy armor proficiency or Longarm proficiency as a starting feat. One or the other.

So now, what do we want to see?
Well, I do have some ideas of new things I want to see, so let's get into it.

1)A damaging ranged build: So, unlike Pathfinder, where archery builds were super dangerous (rapid shot, deadly aim from 100+ feet away), ranged combat just . . . isn't good in Starfinder. I mean, after about level 8, any non-soldier, non-solarian might as well not attack. True story, in Dead suns, after around level 8 or so, my soldier did around 90% of the damage. The envoy's best use of his time was to shout get'em and hustle so I could move somewhere and still full attack with a bonus. And that's not fun. I mean, strength to damage just is such a huge benefit. Then you add an extra 1/2 strength to damage (soldier gear boost) or charisma to damage (solarian) and you just outstrip everyone. Granted we didn't have an operative, and I haven't seen them at higher level play, but, like, a bow soldier style maybe that adds strength to damage? Or a way for some class to add dex to damage? I dunno.

2) Better Mystic spells: One of the running jokes with my friends is that 'mystics don't get nice things.' They essentially get healing spells/restoration spells and that's it. I can't count the number of times a mystic has thrown up their hands and said 'my one attack spell (mind thrust) is mind effecting, and all the enemies are robots!" Or Undead . . . or whatever. Listen, Technomancers get the big boom boom spells. I get that. I'm fine with it. But give the mystics SOMETHING that they can do to robots at early levels. Let Puncture Veil be a Mystic spell. Or give them a starfinder version of searing light. Or . . . SOMETHING. Give them something to be useful. No one wants to sit back and be the healing bot, ESPECIALLY if the healing bot can't do anything else, and half the time healing isn't needed because they didn't deplete their stamina.

3) Mysticism theme: So I basically want the Roboticist theme for mysticism. Level 6 ability: create magic items at as if mysticism was 1 better. Call it artificer or something. Simple request.

4) Odd weapons expert: So right now, the community has basically figured out the 'best' weapons to use. Singing disks, certain small arms, certain sniper rifles, certain longarms. I've never met ANYONE who has even looked at the special weapons category because the feat only makes you proficient in one chain of weapons (so, for example, being proficient in the Bow doesn't make you proficient in the BATTLEBOW), AND to get maximum use out of it, you need TWO feats (weapon proficiency and weapon specialization.) Not optimal. I know we now have shuriken assassins for Operatives, and the biohacker can used grooved shuriken, but I'd like to see more. A soldier fighting style that makes use of certain unorthodox weapons might be great to do this. Like I said in 1, a bow soldier fighting style, or maybe an exocortex variation that are only proficient with hammers. Something that encourages not just going with the same choices over and over again.


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1) What was your envoy using for a weapon? The classes flavor inclines people to a pistol twirling spoony bard but their actual mechanics work best with a gun bigger than they are.

2) Dead suns has seemed pretty stingy with credits and weapon upgrades. Unlike a melee attacker who really doesn't care if they're doing 1d3+215 damage or 2d6+215 damage, a gun based character NEEDS to upgrade their gun as it's most of the damage they're doing.


VampByDay wrote:

Shuttlepods/Worker bees for starships: The only one we haven't gotten yet, although we do have the 'launch tube' so a cruiser can haves shuttles now.

Correction: The cruiser (huge) could always since the CRB install a shuttle bay to handle shuttles (small). The launch tube allows medium/large ships to carry a fighter (tiny).

VampByDay wrote:

Okay, so a year and half ago I made a thread called "Another list of things I want in upcoming Starfinder b

1)A damaging ranged build: So, unlike Pathfinder, where archery builds were super dangerous (rapid shot, deadly aim from 100+ feet away), ranged combat just . . . isn't good in Starfinder. I mean, after about level 8, any non-soldier, non-solarian might as well not attack. True story, in Dead suns, after around level 8 or so, my soldier did around 90% of the damage. The envoy's best use of his time was to shout get'em and hustle so I could move somewhere and still full attack with a bonus. And that's not fun. I mean, strength to damage just is such a huge benefit. Then you add an extra 1/2 strength to damage (soldier gear boost) or charisma to damage (solarian) and you just outstrip everyone. Granted we didn't have an operative, and I haven't seen them at higher level play, but, like, a bow soldier style maybe that adds strength to damage? Or a way for some class to add dex to damage? I dunno.

COM gave the Technomancer (Cache Augmentation plus the usual weapon enhancement magic hacks) and the Biohacker (Injection Expert plus medication master plus painful injection and the 8th level enhancing theorems) excellent 2nd best ranged capability with longarms (or heavy if the Techno invests that far).

Envoys wanting ranged damage should be using big unwieldy weapons and taking credit for the damage boost of their allies, plus using Combat Expertise.

If you have a decent weapon and are adding in weapon specialization plus any bonus damage at all the percentage difference between ranged and melee isn't all that bad and melee comes with plenty of downsides as far as cover and targeting priorities.

VampByDay wrote:
2) Better Mystic spells: One of the running jokes with my friends is that 'mystics don't get nice things.' They essentially get healing spells/restoration spells and that's it. I can't count the number of times a mystic has thrown up their hands and said 'my one attack spell (mind thrust) is mind effecting, and all the enemies are robots!" Or Undead . . . or whatever. Listen, Technomancers get the big boom boom spells. I get that. I'm fine with it. But give the mystics SOMETHING that they can do to robots at early levels. Let Puncture Veil be a Mystic spell. Or give them a starfinder version of searing light. Or . . . SOMETHING. Give them something to be useful. No one wants to sit back and be the healing bot, ESPECIALLY if the healing bot can't do anything else, and half the time healing isn't needed because they didn't deplete their stamina.

Polymorph and especially Summon Creature fill this role just fine, and the damage boosting ephiphany in COM makes Force Blast do a little more or the Star Shaman get more out of Magic Missile.

VampByDay wrote:
3) Mysticism theme: So I basically want the Roboticist theme for mysticism. Level 6 ability: create magic items at as if mysticism was 1 better. Call it artificer or something. Simple request.

I pray they'd never publish something that weak, since buying magic items at the same cost of level +1 or +2 is something you can already do, and even a related boost to the Arcanimirium Sage archetype is just a ribbon on top of the actually useful ability at that level.

Dataphiles

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First of all, I would like you emphatically express my hope that Dex to damage never comes into Starfinder. While it has some sensibility by itself, in conjunction with the whole system, it breaks things. Potentially having Dex to attack, damage, and AC should just be a no. Already Dexterity encompasses a lot of important mechanics of Starfinder. Add in Intelligence and you've pretty much got a character that can do almost anything necessary in Starfinder. Again, please no Dex to damage in Starfinder.

Saying "Your not building an envoy right, because you should be wilding a bigger gun" is not really a defense of the system. If there is 'a' way to make an envoy do more damage that is a statement that there should be more.

That said, I think that the addition of Double Tap has added decent damage to the Envoy specifically. As their action economy normally has them attacking with a standard action, Double Tap is a great feat for Envoys who want to deal more damage.

The COM did help some of the Mystic's lesser spells deal more damage. However, when it comes to the list of spells, the Technomancer and Witchwarper are singing "anything you can do I can do better". All of the solid utility spells that aren't healing can be done by either the Techno or Witch. Summon Monster, Haste, Polymorph, Tongues. Plus, things like Flight, Comprehend languages, Invisibility aren't even on the Mystic list. I agree with the OP, it'd be nice if Mystics had something cool that was 'theirs' (other than healing).


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The ability to deal a lot of damage at range absolutely exists in the game ad it is, right now. Especially with the ways that exist to make full attacks with ranged weapons much more accurate than full attacks in melee.

The ability to do more damage at range than you can do in melee should never exist.

Scarab Sages

Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

Shuttlepods/Worker bees for starships: The only one we haven't gotten yet, although we do have the 'launch tube' so a cruiser can haves shuttles now.

Correction: The cruiser (huge) could always since the CRB install a shuttle bay to handle shuttles (small). The launch tube allows medium/large ships to carry a fighter (tiny).

Yeah, I misspoke, or miswrote, I suppose. I meant shuttles and explorers. Point is, we still don't have worker bees/shuttle pods.

Vampbyday wrote:
Quote:

Okay, so a year and half ago I made a thread called "Another list of things I want in upcoming Starfinder b

1)A damaging ranged build: So, unlike Pathfinder, where archery builds were super dangerous (rapid shot, deadly aim from 100+ feet away), ranged combat just . . . isn't good in Starfinder. I mean, after about level 8, any non-soldier, non-solarian might as well not attack. True story, in Dead suns, after around level 8 or so, my soldier did around 90% of the damage. The envoy's best use of his time was to shout get'em and hustle so I could move somewhere and still full attack with a bonus. And that's not fun. I mean, strength to damage just is such a huge benefit. Then you add an extra 1/2 strength to damage (soldier gear boost) or charisma to damage (solarian) and you just outstrip everyone. Granted we didn't have an operative, and I haven't seen them at higher level play, but, like, a bow soldier style maybe that adds strength to damage? Or a way for some class to add dex to damage? I dunno.

COM gave the Technomancer (Cache Augmentation plus the usual weapon enhancement magic hacks) and the Biohacker (Injection Expert plus medication master plus painful injection and the 8th level enhancing theorems) excellent 2nd best ranged capability with longarms (or heavy if the Techno invests that far).

Envoys wanting ranged damage should be using big unwieldy weapons and taking credit for the damage boost of their allies, plus using Combat Expertise.

If you have a decent weapon and are adding in weapon specialization plus any bonus damage at all the percentage difference between ranged and melee isn't all that bad and melee comes with plenty of downsides as far as cover and targeting priorities.

Cashe Autmentation adds to hit but not to damage as far as I see. And yes, the biohacker can do more damage than most with range thanks to 1/2 (key ability score] to damage, but that is still a far cry from strength and 1/2 to damage. And I just checked out the damage difference between advanced melee weapons and heavy weapons at level 10 (A good midway point I thought.) Advanced melee weapons tend to fall in the 3d10-5d4 range, and so do the heavy weapons (one did 6d4). So if I am doing 5d4+level+9 (strength x1.5 with 22 strength) and I'm hitting 3 times a round and you are doing one shot 6d4+level . . . . seems like I'm still over triple the damage that you are doing. I'm not asking that the non-combat classes do MORE damage than their counterparts, I'm just thinking that, like, 1/3 the damage be something that's not out of the question.

VampByDay wrote:
Quote:
2) Better Mystic spells: One of the running jokes with my friends is that 'mystics don't get nice things.' They essentially get healing spells/restoration spells and that's it. I can't count the number of times a mystic has thrown up their hands and said 'my one attack spell (mind thrust) is mind effecting, and all the enemies are robots!" Or Undead . . . or whatever. Listen, Technomancers get the big boom boom spells. I get that. I'm fine with it. But give the mystics SOMETHING that they can do to robots at early levels. Let Puncture Veil be a Mystic spell. Or give them a starfinder version of searing light. Or . . . SOMETHING. Give them something to be useful. No one wants to sit back and be the healing bot, ESPECIALLY if the healing bot can't do anything else, and half the time healing isn't needed because they didn't deplete their stamina.
Polymorph and especially Summon Creature fill this role just fine, and the damage boosting epiphany in COM makes Force Blast do a little more or the Star Shaman get more out of Magic Missile.

Wrecking spells doesn't fix the ability that from levels 1-3, non-Star Shamans don't have any spells to deal with undead or robots except for, like, telekenetic projectile. I haven't played around with polymorph and summon creature too much admittedly, I'll have to look into making a summon monster one of these days, but it would be nice to have a go-to damaging spell that could do something to robots, because they make up like, 50% of enemies you face in a lot of scenarios.

VampByDay wrote:
3)
Quote:
Mysticism theme: So I basically want the Roboticist theme for mysticism. Level 6 ability: create magic items at as if mysticism was 1 better. Call it artificer or something. Simple request.
I pray they'd never publish something that weak, since buying magic items at the same cost of level +1 or +2 is something you can already do, and even a related boost to the Arcanimirium Sage archetype is just a ribbon on top of the actually useful ability at that level.

Wait, what? You hope I don't get an option I want just because YOU don't think it's powerful enough? Like, if that ever becomes a thing . . . just don't take it? Plus, have you SEEN some of the other level 6 theme abilities out there? Ace Pilot: 1/2 your ranks in piloting can be used for other starship skills=You will never make on level Starship DC checks. Bounty Hunter=You can gather information about ONE individual that you know about in 1/2 the time. Priest=People of your OWN religion like you a bit better and are slightly more likely to listen to you (+2 diplomacy checks). Icon=You have some fans if you are in an area where people know who you are AND ALSO PEOPLE WHO TROLL YOU ACTIVELY. Level 6 theme abilities are generally not great.

PLUS, there have been at LEAST 2 APs (Dead suns and Against the Aeon Throne) where Large chunks of those campaigns are spent away from ANY place to buy things, let alone cities large enough to give you purchase limit of level +2. AND both of those campaigns feature significant time crunches, so, you can't just dip back to Absolom Station for 1d6(return trip to AS)+5d6(journey to the vast)=6d6 days out of your way. So yeah, being able to craft mystical items at Mysticism+1 seems really good to me.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm not sure why you're comparing a single ranged shot to a level 11+ soldier triple attacking as a basis for comparing ranged to melee damage.

With the weapons and soldier stats you just listed out, and the level 11 for triple attack, it would be more accurate to compare:

Ranged soldier: 3 attacks, +15 to hit (11 bab, 6 dex, weapon focus, -3 from full attack as a sharpshooter with a heavy gunner harness), 26 damage (6d4+11)

Melee soldier: 3 attacks, +12 to hit (11 bab, 6 strength, weapon focus, -6 from full attack), 32.5 damage (5d4+11+9)

Ranged technomancer, with int over dex, not an optimized gunner: 2 attacks, +14 to hit (8bab, +2 weapon focus, +1 cache +5 dex, -2 full attack penalty), 26 damage, as the ranged soldier

Melee technomancer: 2 attacks, +12 to hit (8bab, +2 weapon focus, +1 cache +5 dex, -4 full attack penalty), 28.5 damage (5d4, +5 str, +11 spec)

I don't see where you're getting less than a 3rd of the soldiers damage from? Even if you only compare dull attacks, and not class tricks, like taking a single shot with empowered weapon and an AoE spell emanating from the target.

Scarab Sages

HammerJack wrote:

I'm not sure why you're comparing a single ranged shot to a level 11+ soldier triple attacking as a basis for comparing ranged to melee damage.

With the weapons and soldier stats you just listed out, and the level 11 for triple attack, it would be more accurate to compare:

Ranged soldier: 3 attacks, +15 to hit (11 bab, 6 dex, weapon focus, -3 from full attack as a sharpshooter with a heavy gunner harness), 26 damage (6d4+11)

Melee soldier: 3 attacks, +12 to hit (11 bab, 6 strength, weapon focus, -6 from full attack), 32.5 damage (5d4+11+9)

Ranged technomancer, with int over dex, not an optimized gunner: 2 attacks, +14 to hit (8bab, +2 weapon focus, +1 cache +5 dex, -2 full attack penalty), 26 damage, as the ranged soldier

Melee technomancer: 2 attacks, +12 to hit (8bab, +2 weapon focus, +1 cache +5 dex, -4 full attack penalty), 28.5 damage (5d4, +5 str, +11 spec)

I don't see where you're getting less than a 3rd of the soldiers damage from?

The counter-points I was given was "Envoys should use big, Unwieldy weapons," and "Heavy weapons do more damage, use those." Unwieldy weapons can only be fired 1/round, and heavy weapons don't do much more (if any) base damage than an advanced melee weapon of similar level. So, 1 shot/round dealing (comparable weapon damage)+level vs. 3/ a round dealing (comparable weapon damage)+level+Strength+(1/2 again strength or charisma, or charisma+1/2 level or whatever)= your melee guys just doing around 3x as much damage. Yes that -6 might impact accuracy, but let's face it, enemy ACs are low, and if you are running around with 22 strength and weapon focus, you are probably going to hit most of the time. I know my soldier did.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

With an unwieldy weapon envoy, you're only looking at about a +16 to hit for 30.5 damage, yes... but that's the damage output of someone who is spending both their move and standard action on abilities that buff the party while still doing that damage.

So even that full support routine doesn't drop into the category of "might as well not attack."


VampByDay wrote:
The counter-points I was given was "Envoys should use big, Unwieldy weapons," and "Heavy weapons do more damage, use those." Unwieldy weapons can only be fired 1/round, and heavy weapons don't do much more (if any) base damage than an advanced melee weapon of similar level. So, 1 shot/round dealing (comparable weapon damage)+level vs. 3/ a round dealing (comparable weapon damage)+level+Strength+(1/2 again strength or charisma, or charisma+1/2 level or whatever)= your melee guys just doing around 3x as much damage. Yes that -6 might impact accuracy, but let's face it, enemy ACs are low, and if you are running around with 22 strength and weapon focus, you are probably going to hit most of the time. I know my soldier did.

Excuse me?? Heavy weapons aren't doing the most damage? Then what's the point?? I've been making big plans to make a prototype heavy weapon mechanic with overcharge. If heavy weapons aren't as good as I thought, then that really throws a wrench in my gears. Darn, do I have to redo my build?


Tymin wrote:
If heavy weapons aren't as good as I thought, then that really throws a wrench in my gears. Darn, do I have to redo my build?

Melee currently rules the roost of damage by a long shot, and has the added advantage of not being nearly as dependent on equipment upgrades to do so.

Starfinder made haste BETTER by turning it into flying minipounce of death. So for melee round 1 is haste circuit move charge! and after that you're full attacking all the time with your hasted jetpack of cleaving fire axe awesomeness. Unwieldy weapons HURT but they don't hurt three times as much.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Melee currently rules the roost of damage by a long shot, and has the added advantage of not being nearly as dependent on equipment upgrades to do so.

Starfinder made haste BETTER by turning it into flying minipounce of death. So for melee round 1 is haste circuit move charge! and after that you're full attacking all the time with your hasted jetpack of cleaving fire axe awesomeness. Unwieldy weapons HURT but they don't hurt three times as much.

Dagnabbit. I don't want to do a melee build in a sci-fi game. I wanted to one-hand a home-made siege laser. Guess I'll keep tinkering with the idea, but stick to my vanguard instead for actual play.

Wayfinders

Anyone who is focusing only on individual damage throughput as a way to be effective/fun is really missing something. My Envoy went through 8 levels while using approximately 1 battery worth of charges, without me feeling like I wasn't having fun, and without anyone else in her parties thinking she wasn't contributing.
The Soldier and to a slightly lesser extent Mechanic and Solarian are the ones who focus on damage throughput. Operative and Envoy do damage (Operative) or heal (Envoy), while also boosting everyone else's to hit chances. Technomancers provide some flexibility on energy types, without having to carry 16 bulk worth of weapons, and have that handy 'when it absolutely has to hit' capability. Haven't tried to build a mystic, or a non-playtest version of the three new classes, but people at my tables seem to be enjoying them.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It's not like heavy weapons don't do good damage. They just don't break the basic principle of range being counted as an advantage when balancing weapons. There's nothing about a mechanic with a prototype heavy weapon that wouldn't work well.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
and to a slightly lesser extent Mechanic and Solarian

...what?


Raia of Jabask wrote:


The Soldier and to a slightly lesser extent Mechanic and Solarian are the ones who focus on damage throughput. Operative and Envoy do damage (Operative) or heal (Envoy), while also boosting everyone else's to hit chances.

The hit chance is kinda meh, especially if you have an operative in your party (yes, operatives CAN apply things besides flat footed, to some enemies, with the expenditure of resources. Not sure they should though...) and can't get em and bluff em

inspiring boost rant:

I don't really like that ability.

It doesn't scale very well. At lower levels taking off half or negating a hit is really cool. At higher levels you're trading your standard action to take off a quarter or less of a hit.

It affects the fight if you change

Would rest for staminia vs. not rest for staminia (under most circumstances your staminia pool increases while the cost for this remains the same) so you wind up resting anyway

.. except this is almost non existant. If someone has been hit with your inspiring boost they need to rest again to gain the benefit anyway.

Take staminia vs lose hitpoints: Only matters if you're away from civilization and a workshop for a LOOOOONG time. otherwise healing serums are really cheap. If you're taking multiple fights at once, this ability greatly diminishes in usefulness.

Would drop or not drop without it: there's almost always something better for the opportunity cost. Hurry will let someone 5 foot step, which considering the NPCs high hits. Doing damage will drop the bad guys sooner.

would die vs. would not die. Which i think is a wash because it can do by getting you hit again and possibly going further into the negatives just as easily as it can keep you up.

Wayfinders

HammerJack wrote:
Quote:
and to a slightly lesser extent Mechanic and Solarian
...what?

There are choices for Solarian that go more towards battlefield control than to raw damage. Most Solarians are damage machines, yes, but not all. And my armor solarian has been effective on occassion without directly attacking.

Wayfinders

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Raia of Jabask wrote:


The Soldier and to a slightly lesser extent Mechanic and Solarian are the ones who focus on damage throughput. Operative and Envoy do damage (Operative) or heal (Envoy), while also boosting everyone else's to hit chances.

The hit chance is kinda meh, especially if you have an operative in your party (yes, operatives CAN apply things besides flat footed, to some enemies, with the expenditure of resources. Not sure they should though...) and can't get em and bluff em

** spoiler omitted **

Raia's primary job is battlefield medic, with appropriate class feature and feat choices. At higher levels, she's been burning through inspiring boost as soon as someone is down enough stamina to get full use of it, including any resolve I feel is warranted. By the time I've done that, people are into hit points or suffering conditions that I can relieve without the restrictions on Inspiring Boost. Unless there's a Vanguard around, it's pretty easy to keep doing something to be useful, without ever having to take a shot.


VampByDay wrote:


The counter-points I was given was "Envoys should use big, Unwieldy weapons," and "Heavy weapons do more damage, use those."

an envoy shouldn't be pumping out soldier damage, but it should be noticeable

An envoy generally has to use their move action for something else: look a monkey! Improved hurry, or the like. So they lose a lot less by using a heavy weapon.

Question: is ranged combat borked?

How to find the answer: Compare ranged soldier to melee soldier , or best melee character to best ranged character.

Question: Is the envoy borked?

How to find the answer: compare a well built envoy compared to other

Question: Is your typical envoy borked?

How to find the answer: compare them to another class that's bringing in fair number of skills.

Sovereign Court

"Dr." Cupi wrote:
That said, I think that the addition of Double Tap has added decent damage to the Envoy specifically. As their action economy normally has them attacking with a standard action, Double Tap is a great feat for Envoys who want to deal more damage.

As I understand, you can't combine it with Improved Get 'Em;

- They're both specific standard actions
- Double Tap doesn't stack it's to-hit bonus with other bonuses gained as a move action

It feels almost like a slap in the face how anti-synergetic they are.

Sovereign Court

The big things I'm still missing:
- A solarian reach weapon
- A solarian operative weapon, to make a nice Dex/Cha/Light Armor/Soulfire build.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
VampByDay wrote:


The counter-points I was given was "Envoys should use big, Unwieldy weapons," and "Heavy weapons do more damage, use those."

an envoy shouldn't be pumping out soldier damage, but it should be noticeable

An envoy generally has to use their move action for something else: look a monkey! Improved hurry, or the like. So they lose a lot less by using a heavy weapon.

Question: is ranged combat borked?

How to find the answer: Compare ranged soldier to melee soldier , or best melee character to best ranged character.

Question: Is the envoy borked?

How to find the answer: compare a well built envoy compared to other

Question: Is your typical envoy borked?

How to find the answer: compare them to another class that's bringing in fair number of skills.

See, that’s what I was trying to say in my OP! I have an (IMHO) envoy that’s solidly built, and with a same-level gun I decided it wasn’t worth it to ever attack past level, say, eiightt when I was shooting for around 10 damage a round and the soldier in my group was punching for 35 damage a hit. The envoy in our Dead suns campaign (who was also solid, I would argue) reached the same conclusion. Now, it is true both of us were using small arms because we didn’t have two feats to spend on heavy weapon proficiency (our dead suns envoy didn’t have the strength for them, I focused on things like toughness and enhanced resistance so I wouldn’t die from a single hit.)

And as for a ranged soldier. . . Melee still gets strength x1.5 to damage (solarisns: strength+charisma), and that’s just a huge boost. I’m simply saying a build option that closes that gap would be nice. Geez, everyone got so bent out of shape from that one comment. What about my other ideas?


Hey, I criticized or corrected several of your ideas!


Starfinder Superscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
"Dr." Cupi wrote:
That said, I think that the addition of Double Tap has added decent damage to the Envoy specifically. As their action economy normally has them attacking with a standard action, Double Tap is a great feat for Envoys who want to deal more damage.

As I understand, you can't combine it with Improved Get 'Em;

- They're both specific standard actions
- Double Tap doesn't stack it's to-hit bonus with other bonuses gained as a move action

It feels almost like a slap in the face how anti-synergetic they are.

Improved Get 'Em can still be a move action. You have the option of doing it as a standard along with an attack, you don't have to, though. So you can do Improved Get 'Em as a move action and then Double-Tap as a standard.

It won't be as good as doing Improved Get 'Em along with a big unwieldy weapon attack, though.


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Well, seeing some other options to use special weapons isn't something I'd have any objection to. I would still say that there is no need to add a Stat modifier to ranged weapon damage. Ranged weapons just need to be able to compare against the damage curve of longarms, not the damage curve of melee, to be reasonably effective.

Bows, in particular, could be really easy to fix. All they need is an expanded ammo table, and an official rule for chance of arrow recvery/breakage.

With the envoy discussions, I would point out that even as small arms damage drops off, the attacks don't become useless, because even low damage attacks included with clever attack or improved get 'em can be used with things like cruel fusions, or entangling fusions to squeeze some extra debuffing out of 1 round of actions.


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Starfinder Superscriber

Small arms have the problem of being hampered by Operatives. In order for anyone else to be able to use them well, you have to give them things that Operatives can't take advantage of. Until such things are out there, and there are enough of them to warrant it, anyone other than an operative not using at least a longarm is shooting themselves in the foot. I agree that that's a problem, even post COM, because there's an expected trope of people walking around with nothing but 'a good blaster on their side'.


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Quote:
See, that’s what I was trying to say in my OP! I have an (IMHO) envoy that’s solidly built,..... Now, it is true both of us were using small arms

Small arms and solidly built are completely incompatible for non operatives in startfinder. (or well, now the biohacker can get in on it).

Your character isn't the best comparison point for a ranged damage dealer. It's not your fault but it is the starfinder system.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's not your fault but it is the starfinder system.

But . . . you . . . I mean . . . THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT! I think it would be good if there were better options for damage at range. I . . . I can't . . . I just . . .


VampByDay wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's not your fault but it is the starfinder system.

But . . . you . . . I mean . . . THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT! I think it would be good if there were better options for damage at range. I . . . I can't . . . I just . . .

The options are longarm and heavy weapons proficiency. Congratulations, it’s already here!


VampByDay wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's not your fault but it is the starfinder system.

But . . . you . . . I mean . . . THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT! I think it would be good if there were better options for damage at range. I . . . I can't . . . I just . . .

I wish New York was a more metropolitan state.

My home town has nothing but corn cows and walmart.
There should be more cities in the state.

Your characters aren't solidly built. They're badly built. I get that the envoy encourages a bad build , but your data point is way off. "theres no point in firing" s true... of pistols. Just like my home town may not represent new york state at its most urban. If you're looking for ranged damage

Your data point for ranged needs more damage is either off, or a mis stated PISTOLS need more damage. Pistols aren't the only catagory of ranged weapons. Adding dex to damage with all ranged to make your pistol twirling envoy might make the multishotting soldier a little too good. (mind you, its very hard to compare ranged better ability to full attack and not die from being in melee though....)

Dataphiles

lol, talking circles

OP - "It would be nice if non-operatives could get a decent damage boost for small arms so that their damage numbers are higher in combat."

Other person - insert talking point about longarms
Other Person - insert talking point about heavy weapons

OP - "But I was talking about small arms..."

Other person - insert talking point about longarms
Other Person - insert talking point about heavy weapons

lol, nice

OP, I disagree that there should be more for the small arm users, because there is already enough out there. If you want your piddly little pistol to do more damage, then you are going to have to build for it / specialize in it. (Double Tap , Deadly Aim, Supercharge Weapon, etc...) I think that the action economy for it is decent enough. I'm fine with an envoy having to choose between standard Imp Get'em and standard Double tap. Or they could move Get'em and standard Double Tap+Deadly Aim.

I have an envoy of my own, I'm not sure what I'll choose. But I will choose between dealing more damage and focusing more on buffing. It is a choice, as well it should be.

Scarab Sages

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's not your fault but it is the starfinder system.

But . . . you . . . I mean . . . THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT! I think it would be good if there were better options for damage at range. I . . . I can't . . . I just . . .

I wish New York was a more metropolitan state.

My home town has nothing but corn cows and walmart.
There should be more cities in the state.

Your characters aren't solidly built. They're badly built. I get that the envoy encourages a bad build , but your data point is way off. "theres no point in firing" s true... of pistols. Just like my home town may not represent new york state at its most urban. If you're looking for ranged damage

Your data point for ranged needs more damage is either off, or a mis stated PISTOLS need more damage. Pistols aren't the only category of ranged weapons.

Wow . . . just . . . wow. I mean . . . wow. So let . . . let me get this straight. Any envoy that doesn't invest in these specific two feats (weapon proficiency and versatile specialization) is a badly built envoy. I . . . wow. Good to know that me, and my friend, and my other friend with an envoy, Navasi and EVERY OTHER ENVOY I HAVE EVER PLAYED WITH (including the multiple envoys I've seen online) are bad builds. Guess we should all scrap those characters.

Okay, we are coming at this from clearly two different points of view. Listen, I am, and always have been, of the opinion that a class should be competent 'out of the box.' Feats and character options should be used to add flavor and direction to a character. Let's take Soldier for example. Even without feats and gear boosts and whatnot, they still do what they are designed to do "Out of the box" They can fight, fight with different weapons, and have the armor and stamina and HP to stand up in a fight. Vanguards: same thing, only with a melee focus. Biohackers can do medical/life science things out of the box. They work. I'm saying that, with this part of the system, envoys specifically, and ranged damage in general, doesn't seem to work as well as it should. I am hoping for some options to change that.

You are saying, if I get this right: Anyone who's not a fighty type or mechanic needs to blow two of their customization options just to get anywhere close to the rest of the class, or they are terrible builds. If that's true, that is bad game design, and should be addressed, which is all I'm asking for. If you don't agree, that's fine, your opinion. No need to telling everyone else that they have terrible characters.


VampByDay wrote:
No need to telling everyone else that they have terrible characters.

I tried to make the charisma check to put it more delicately three times.

Tapdancing isn't a specialty of a quadraped.

It doesn't mean that the character isn't fun or interesting or well role played, just that their mechanics don't work. You stated as much when you said that they may as well not fire.

Quote:
You are saying, if I get this right: Anyone who's not a fighty type or mechanic needs to blow two of their customization options just to get anywhere close to the rest of the class, or they are terrible builds.

Spellcasters can get by without, but largely yes.

(sharpshooter soldier dip and 1 customization option in the form of versatile specialization at 5th also works)

Quote:
If that's true, that is bad game design, and should be addressed, which is all I'm asking for. If you don't agree, that's fine, your opinion.

I think it may be bad design but where is the bad design?

Is it bad design in

-the envoy
-pistols
-ranged

?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:


You are saying, if I get this right: Anyone who's not a fighty type or mechanic needs to blow two of their customization options just to get anywhere close to the rest of the class, or they are terrible builds.
Spellcasters can get by without, but largely yes.

(sharpshooter soldier dip and 1 customization option in the form of versatile specialization at 5th also works)

There are a few other options here, also. If you are going envoy levels only and don't want to spend any feats on proficiencies, you can also use basic melee weapons, which do not lag behind advanced melee in the same way that small arms lag behind longarms. A spear throwing envoy can work out pretty well.

Sovereign Court

I agree with VampByDay that we should expect classes to be competent out of the box. But BigNorseWolf is realistic in that we need to look the facts in the face: non-operative small arms don't work out of the box.

And unfortunately Double Tap is hobbled as a feat, maybe to prevent it from synergizing with Quick Trick.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Double tap helps out mystics quite a bit. It's not so great for envoys with their action economy.

If we want to help out envoys, why don't we come up with improvisation that works when combined with Improved Get 'em? (I'd rather have it work with improved Get 'em than regular get 'em, since I'd rather have it kick in for the second half of my envoy's career.) But instead of being terrified of creating a general feat that buffs operatives, lets come up with specific things that buff other classes.

Hmm


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

One other thing I just realized is that, with combat expertise, envoys are now allowed to strangle people. The throttle weapon property was, unfortunately, written in a way that made me think someone had operatives on the brain, which prevents garrotes from being used with Clever Attack, and allows them to be used with Improved Get 'Em only when spending resolve. They work just fine with the Combat Expertise standard action, though.

Wayfinders

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"I haven't minded having to tote around a long arm for most of my career, especially since my long arm, the hutchket rifle, came from my very first mission." Charli polishes the old antique fondly. "This silly antique has gone everywhere with me. I know that I should upgrade it to something else now that I am going on more dangerous missions, but I haven't been able to put it aside."

What I find more interesting is that my level 3 hutchket served me from level 2 all the way to level 8. I have decided that I need something better now that I have hit level 9, but I am not sure what will satisfy. The main reason why I want a higher level weapon really is to have something that can ghost touch and do a bit more damage. I do think it odd that the system gives us little reason to upgrade weapons until very late in a character's career. The damage just does not scale until level 8 for most damage types.

I do wish there was a way to upgrade in place my beloved hutchket, which has become so much of Charli's personal story. I didn't mind investing two feats in this weapon.


VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

Shuttlepods/Worker bees for starships: The only one we haven't gotten yet, although we do have the 'launch tube' so a cruiser can haves shuttles now.

Correction: The cruiser (huge) could always since the CRB install a shuttle bay to handle shuttles (small). The launch tube allows medium/large ships to carry a fighter (tiny).

Yeah, I misspoke, or miswrote, I suppose. I meant shuttles and explorers. Point is, we still don't have worker bees/shuttle pods.

Vampbyday wrote:
Quote:

Okay, so a year and half ago I made a thread called "Another list of things I want in upcoming Starfinder b

1)A damaging ranged build: So, unlike Pathfinder, where archery builds were super dangerous (rapid shot, deadly aim from 100+ feet away), ranged combat just . . . isn't good in Starfinder. I mean, after about level 8, any non-soldier, non-solarian might as well not attack. True story, in Dead suns, after around level 8 or so, my soldier did around 90% of the damage. The envoy's best use of his time was to shout get'em and hustle so I could move somewhere and still full attack with a bonus. And that's not fun. I mean, strength to damage just is such a huge benefit. Then you add an extra 1/2 strength to damage (soldier gear boost) or charisma to damage (solarian) and you just outstrip everyone. Granted we didn't have an operative, and I haven't seen them at higher level play, but, like, a bow soldier style maybe that adds strength to damage? Or a way for some class to add dex to damage? I dunno.

COM gave the Technomancer (Cache Augmentation plus the usual weapon enhancement magic hacks) and the Biohacker (Injection Expert plus medication master plus painful injection and the 8th level enhancing theorems) excellent 2nd best ranged capability with longarms (or heavy if the Techno invests that far).

Envoys wanting ranged damage should be using big unwieldy weapons and taking credit for the damage boost of their allies, plus using

...

Technomancers already hit plenty hard due to their magic hack options with weapons their problem was accuracy in actually landing those shots at high levels. The new cache capacitor thing fixes the accuracy issues giving them near full BAB. Also envoy get a more martial type character option that uses their expertise dice offensively I don't have my book in front of me at the moment though so I don't recall exactly how it worked but it looked like a good option for a more shooty envoy.


HammerJack wrote:
It's not like heavy weapons don't do good damage. They just don't break the basic principle of range being counted as an advantage when balancing weapons. There's nothing about a mechanic with a prototype heavy weapon that wouldn't work well.

I am pretty sure prototype mechanics bonus damage applies per target so a good area effect heavy weapon likely works really well for them. Their accuracy is low enough that a single big shot is probably more consistent than multiple lesser accuracy hits are.


Raia of Jabask wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Raia of Jabask wrote:


The Soldier and to a slightly lesser extent Mechanic and Solarian are the ones who focus on damage throughput. Operative and Envoy do damage (Operative) or heal (Envoy), while also boosting everyone else's to hit chances.

The hit chance is kinda meh, especially if you have an operative in your party (yes, operatives CAN apply things besides flat footed, to some enemies, with the expenditure of resources. Not sure they should though...) and can't get em and bluff em

** spoiler omitted **

Raia's primary job is battlefield medic, with appropriate class feature and feat choices. At higher levels, she's been burning through inspiring boost as soon as someone is down enough stamina to get full use of it, including any resolve I feel is warranted. By the time I've done that, people are into hit points or suffering conditions that I can relieve without the restrictions on Inspiring Boost. Unless there's a Vanguard around, it's pretty easy to keep doing something to be useful, without ever having to take a shot.

COM also has some interesting options for envoys who like healing. They have an AOE boost option for their stamina heal where as a full action they can apply their inspiring boost to any ally in I believe 60 feet from you. So if everybody is banged up you can just use one round to throw your heal on everybody. There is also a class change you can do that lets you put your expertise dice to your inspiring boost healing which is a pretty good scaling boost to your healing output.

Wayfinders

VampByDay wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's not your fault but it is the starfinder system.

But . . . you . . . I mean . . . THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT! I think it would be good if there were better options for damage at range. I . . . I can't . . . I just . . .

I wish New York was a more metropolitan state.

My home town has nothing but corn cows and walmart.
There should be more cities in the state.

Your characters aren't solidly built. They're badly built. I get that the envoy encourages a bad build , but your data point is way off. "theres no point in firing" s true... of pistols. Just like my home town may not represent new york state at its most urban. If you're looking for ranged damage

Your data point for ranged needs more damage is either off, or a mis stated PISTOLS need more damage. Pistols aren't the only category of ranged weapons.

Wow . . . just . . . wow. I mean . . . wow. So let . . . let me get this straight. Any envoy that doesn't invest in these specific two feats (weapon proficiency and versatile specialization) is a badly built envoy. I . . . wow. Good to know that me, and my friend, and my other friend with an envoy, Navasi and EVERY OTHER ENVOY I HAVE EVER PLAYED WITH (including the multiple envoys I've seen online) are bad builds. Guess we should all scrap those characters.

Only if you insist on measuring worth by damage throughput. Instead, look at everything the envoys can do, and those builds look just fine. Not everyone in the combat has to be acting like a DPR machine. Are you not firing solely because in your perception it's pointless? Or are you not firing because you have something more useful to do. As I noted, Raia rarely fires because she's more useful keeping others in the combat longer, or melee tanking when all of the @#$% soldiers are sharpshooters, so the Mystic doesn't end up in melee and die. On the rare occasion I do fire, it's pretty much bonus damage for the party if I hit.


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Raia of Jabask wrote:
Only if you insist on measuring worth by damage throughput

1) characters not judged SOLEY by damage throughput but it is a very important aspect to most characters

2)its a big deal for the envoy. Their contributions from standing in the back are meh.

3) The entire context of the discussion is that it doesn't seem that a solidly built ranged damage dealing character is even relevant. The listed damage is not a solidy built ranged damage dealing character. The envoy absolutely CAN be that, this one is not that.

4) It is really, really, REALLY easy in starfinder to lose an ounce of.. whatever it is you do, and pick up a pound of damage throughput.

Quote:
Instead, look at everything the envoys can do, and those builds look just fine. Not everyone in the combat has to be acting like a DPR machine. Are you not firing solely because in your perception it's pointless? Or are you not firing because you have something more useful to do.

To any envoy with improved get em (which is one of their more useful abilities) this is a total false dichotomy. It in no way interferes with an envoys action economy or does much to their resource investment to use an effective gun with get em and take their own advice than it does to use a pea shooter with get em and shine it for the camera to make it look good.

Quote:
As I noted, Raia rarely fires because she's more useful keeping others in the combat longer

Inspiring boost just doesn't hold up at higher levels. It's a scaling issue. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Envoys can fire globs of it. (4 globs to a pound)

Quote:
or melee tanking when all of the @#$% soldiers are sharpshooters, so the Mystic doesn't end up in melee and die.

Anyone can meat shield. I do it with my mystic all the time, he's 9th level and just got out of second skin armor. You go in get beat up till you hit hit points you get out and recover your staminia afterwards. Glug a few healing serums to recover your hp.

Quote:
On the rare occasion I do fire, it's pretty much bonus...

This is mellissa She has a giant pink bow on her tail and the picture to the right is her t shirt

For purposes of this discussion her charisma should be 2 points lower at a mere 14. (she has the scoured stars society boon )

at 6th level, with a 2nd level weapon she does 1d12+6 points of damage. (really need to take her shopping): more than the 11th level envoy with the pea shooter. She's only a point or two off of a spoony bard for diplomacy checks and.. thats all she's missing. She still has hurry. Once her build comes together (yes, an entire level late) she'll have an option of a move action improved hurry or feint for real flat footed) And improved get em AND take her own advice to lay down some pain... with a functional +4 to hit for the whole party. Including herself.

It's not a dpr machine but its GOOD dpr along with 95% of the talky talk skills. You can net a 5% loss in talky talk for a 100% increase in the blasty blasty. If she was being compared on DPR alone she would be worse than meh. But with the buffs she's really good.

An envoy without ANY dpr to speak of is really meh.

Nothing in com is really popping out at me to change that.

Scarab Sages

Raia of Jabask wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's not your fault but it is the starfinder system.

But . . . you . . . I mean . . . THAT WAS MY ENTIRE POINT! I think it would be good if there were better options for damage at range. I . . . I can't . . . I just . . .

I wish New York was a more metropolitan state.

My home town has nothing but corn cows and walmart.
There should be more cities in the state.

Your characters aren't solidly built. They're badly built. I get that the envoy encourages a bad build , but your data point is way off. "theres no point in firing" s true... of pistols. Just like my home town may not represent new york state at its most urban. If you're looking for ranged damage

Your data point for ranged needs more damage is either off, or a mis stated PISTOLS need more damage. Pistols aren't the only category of ranged weapons.

Wow . . . just . . . wow. I mean . . . wow. So let . . . let me get this straight. Any envoy that doesn't invest in these specific two feats (weapon proficiency and versatile specialization) is a badly built envoy. I . . . wow. Good to know that me, and my friend, and my other friend with an envoy, Navasi and EVERY OTHER ENVOY I HAVE EVER PLAYED WITH (including the multiple envoys I've seen online) are bad builds. Guess we should all scrap those characters.
Only if you insist on measuring worth by damage throughput. Instead, look at everything the envoys can do, and those builds look just fine. Not everyone in the combat has to be acting like a DPR machine. Are you not firing solely because in your perception it's pointless? Or are you not firing because you have something more useful to do. As I noted, Raia rarely fires because she's more useful keeping others in the combat longer, or melee tanking when all of the @#$% soldiers are sharpshooters, so the Mystic doesn't end up in melee and die. On the rare occasion I do fire, it's pretty much bonus...

Don’t bother on this particular line of dialog with BigNorseWolf. His general opinion seems to be, as far as I can tell: “Is it as mechanically optimal as possible? No? Then it is a terrible option and you are a terrible player for thinking about it.” I’ve given up talking mechanics with him, we just have VERY different ideas about how to play the game. Anyway, I agree, it’d be nice to have a damage output option for envoys that you don’t have to pay through the nose with. Here’s a thought: strength envoy with a called hatchet. Full level to damage, ranged option, melee option, no need for extra feats.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you want to keep a hand free for tools or shields, a hand axe does work almost as well as a spear. If you just want damage, and aren't as worried about flexibility, you might even put a throwing fusion on a greataxe, aND tRade your rage increment for beefier dsage dice.

The main reasons to consider spending feats for advanced melee are not so much for damage, as for having access to a lot of EAC targeting melee weapons, and to gain more access to helpful weapon properties, like the xenolash's free entangle on hit, so that your attacks have more ways to reinforce your support capability. Threatening a wider area with reach does also tend to be helpful to your party.


VampByDay wrote:
His general opinion seems to be, as far as I can tell: “Is it as mechanically optimal as possible? No? Then it is a terrible option and you are a terrible player for thinking about it.

Dude, seriously not cool.

There is absolutely no way to go from anything I said to this gross misrepresentation of my opinion. Everything you said here is not only wrong, it was point blank stated as the opposite multiple times. I realize it's starfinder, but binary is a TERRIBLE way to look at things.
The options are not uber optimization and junk. Calling an option junk does not default to uber optimized or bust. Some things are the best. Some things are incomparable. Some things are good enough to work.

And yes, some things are so bad they're non functional. Pistols fall into that catagory. Recognizing that does not make someone pushing for optimization or bust. Reducing that to misaimed outrage is not having a dialog about the issue it's evading it.

Contorting what i said to "No? Then it is a terrible option and you are a terrible player for thinking about it" isn't a dialog, its using the either or fallacy for polemics.

Bignorsewolf saying the opposite of "Is it as mechanically optimal as possible? No? Then it is a terrible option" wrote:


characters not judged SOLEY by damage throughput but it is a very important aspect to most characters

It's not a dpr machine but its GOOD dpr<--- this really shouldn't be possible if I'm promoting uber optimized or bust.

Melee currently rules the roost of damage by a long shot (yet has a ranged character)

an envoy shouldn't be pumping out soldier damage, but it should be noticeable <---- asking for noticable damage is NOT throwing out anything thats mechanically optimal as possible.

Bignorsewolf says the opposite of " you are a terrible player for thinking about it" wrote:

The classes flavor inclines people to a pistol twirling spoony bard but their actual mechanics work best with a gun bigger than they are. <---- its not you its the system

Your character isn't the best comparison point for a ranged damage dealer. It's not your fault but it is the starfinder system.<---- really, its not you its the system

I get that the envoy encourages a bad build<---- again, blaming the system not you

It doesn't mean that the character isn't fun or interesting or well role played

I think it may be bad design but where is the bad design? Is it bad design in -the envoy-pistols-ranged? <---- hatin the game not the player

If it wasn't plain enough, I do not believe that someone is a terrible player for going along with the paradigm a class presents to you. I fully believe it's a mistake in the game mechanics gets you such a disparity in results that you may as well not fire at all.

Dataphiles

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Vamp dude, calm it down. Taking things personally in a discussion never goes well. Also it is presumptive to assume that they care enough to endeavor to maliciously slight you.

Also, I'd like to call to your own point about "classes working out-of-the-box" (ootb). The point of soldiers ootb is to tank and/or deal damage. The point of technomancers ootb is to cast spells that do damage and have utility. The point of mystics ootb is to heal, and have some utility and damage options...mostly heal. The point of mechanics ootb is to be tech everything (mainly skills and items with some weapon and armor buffing). The point of operatives ootb is....to do everything..?..mainly skill monkeys (which they have in spades). The point of solarians ootb is damage and maybe off tank and crowd control..? The point of envoys ootb is face skills and combat buff/debuff utility, with an ability to specialize in a skill.

All of these classes do their thing and can overlap with another. Ootb every class works well as intended. The evnoy was not intended to be a damage dealer ootb. Therefore your desire for the envoy to be able to deal more damage is more than they were intended for ootb.

As BNW has pointed out, there are options to deal more damage.

You can build an envoy that deals solid damage.

However that requires you to venture away from how the envoy was intended for ootb.This is fine. This is not bad game design.

Side note: Ootb pistols are not intended to compete at all with other forms of damage dealing....I mean...they are pistols...they're pistols people...

Sovereign Court

The envoy in our Dead Suns party is certainly not having any trouble being useful. Pretty straightforward. Longarm proficiency and specialization, Improved Get 'Em and a level appropriate gun. Works quite nicely.

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