Strange grapple situation


Rules Questions


If I have a weapon with the grapple special property with an enhancement bonus and I also have a belt of superior maneuvers and score a critical hit, if I choose to grapple and use the belts ability (a free action that grants an enhancement bonus to grapple checks), do these two bonuses work together?

Normally, the same kind of bonuses don't stack, but the weapon's enhancement bonus applies to attack rolls and the belt's applied to specifically grapple maneuvers.

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Interesting. So since Combat Maneuvers made with weapons are just regular attack rolls using the attackers CMB in place of his normal attack bonus, and since magic weapons apply enhancement bonuses to attack rolls made with the weapon (including CM's), then it stands that Combat Maneuvers made with magic weapons would apply the magic weapons bonus as an actual enhancement bonus directly to the attack roll (rather than CM's using your combined attack roll bonus as an untyped bonus to the CM's attack roll as I had originally thought), and would therefore not stack with the belts enhancement bonus.

This is, however, really stupid and likely unintentional. If it were my game Is let them stack.


Because both the weapon and the belt provide an enhancement bonus they do not stack. I wouldn't say this is an unintentional effect either. The belt is as inexpensive as it is because the bonus it provides is an enhancement bonus. On the plus side you can choose to not activate it and keep it from getting wasted.

edit: This is why the weapon enchantment dueling is worded the way it is. Even going so far as to clarify that the bonus it provides stacks with the weapon's enhancement bonus.

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LordKailas wrote:
The belt is as inexpensive as it is because the bonus it provides is an enhancement bonus.

Well, no, it's because the bonus can only be used 3 times per day.

LordKailas wrote:


This is why the weapon enchantment dueling is worded the way it is. Even going so far as to clarify that the bonus it provides stacks with the weapon's enhancement bonus.

That's an actual property of the weapon itself though, the same source that the enhancement bonus is coming from. It's not possible (outside of certain methods) to even have the Dueling enchantment without also having an enhancement bonus, so clarification for new players (which is who the PFS Field Guide was catered to) was called for.

The belt though, is a separate item, that can't make the assumption that an enhancement bonus would be present the way Dueling can (regardless of how likely it'd be). So I doubt whoever created it purposefully made it an enhancement bonus for the explicit purpose of making it not stack with weapon enhancements. These kinds of bonus type oversights are really common, particularly among the common types like enhancement and competence.

But really, conversations on these forums regarding RAI are notoriously pointless unless a Dev miraculous decended from the heavens to grace us with their intention. So we are spinning our wheels here lol.


Without getting into technicalities, you're still trying to stack two enhancement bonuses to the same roll. No can do.


My statement was in reference to the Magic Item Creation guidelines where if the item has a bonus that is different from the "default" it costs more.

Yes, the belt in question does have limited uses per day. But it also does more than just provide a bonus. Sure, you don't gain the extra benefit unless you're a brawler but its there and thus it is part of the cost. The charges per day limitation seems to be present in order to offset the cost of this extra ability. Using the creation rules we can see that if the belt was not limited by 3 charges per day it would cost about 1.6 times more. Meaning the +5 version would now cost 80k instead of 50k.

My statement had less to do with the author's intention and more on the deconstructed cost of the item.


Sorry, that was directed at OP. I haven't really looked at deconstructing the item's cost.


I would say that, in principle, the bonuses from the belt and the weapon would stack, but if they are both enhancement bonuses, then they wouldn't.

My point is that it is because they are both enhancement bonuses and not for some other reason that they will not stack.


blahpers wrote:
Sorry, that was directed at OP. I haven't really looked at deconstructing the item's cost.

no worries. my statement was also directed at the OP. :)

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